Oslo City Centre Explosion and Island Murders

[shen]

Very sad at this, Ive read and listened to many eye-witness accounts from the Media, especially those who were on the island. The survivors went to hell and back that day. I cant imagine the things they saw and the mental aspect of a "manhut" when its for real not in a school yard. I hope must of them live their lives well and hope they dont brake down, I know I would if I saw what happened on the island. I see it more as a tragedy, The man ok it was his fault for the deaths of over 90 people But it seems he was deluded. My thoughts go to everyone who was effected by this terrible day. IMO the reason for this attack simply against the Norwegian PM socialist views (trying to kill him with the bomb) then go to a lefty camp and kill every Lefty you see, because he was a far right, Its happend before in history the two dont match. Why teenagers though? They dont know nothing about the real world at that age. some were 14 who were killed, They wernt interested in politics, They wanted to have some fun in life.

RIP

It seems to me that this was the work of a cynical, deluded and cunning mind. Utøya was an easy target where he could wreak complete havok and create the ultimate shock-attack. The signal intent is clear.

[accessory]

Hypocrite.

[Zingari]

This thread is deviating into a pathetic little squabble about racism.

Why don't you all shut up, and give more thought, and respect, to the dead.

How dare you ?

Pathetic little squabbles about racism are the lifeblood FT , so please refrain from such attitudes !!

[breadandcheese]

I went to a talk by Ray Hill a decade ago (ex BNP mole) who was speaking about fascist groups. It was a very eye-opening and interesting talk about fascist elements and how they operated. I remember him saying that although it was not as obvious as years gone by, fascism was still around, more organised than before, and that violence and attacks by the likes of the Copeland bomber would always be a persistent threat, to which we should all be vigilant.

A question was asked about the Copeland bomber to which he replied that he didn't believe that the David Copeland acted alone, and that he would have had help, hinting that it may be set-up to look like a loner and cover tracks. Sadly and horrifically, it looks like the same thing with an "individual loner" in Norway with even more devastating results. After hearing Ray Hill speak, I can't believe that this murderer in Norway managed to plan and orchestrate the whole thing with no help. It's just truly horrific really, especially in a beautiful and hospitable country like Norway.

[Daggers]

I'm so glad that I've missed every single news bulletin about this and so it's just one more subject I have no opinion about other than "blimey, that sounds a bit queer".

[Narborough_fox]

Just read the person that commited these crimes can only get 21 years in jail now I'm sorry but he's killed 93 people I think letting him live is not adequate for what he did.

[Kent]

Just read the person that commited these crimes can only get 21 years in jail now I'm sorry but he's killed 93 people I think letting him live is not adequate for what he did.

The chances of him only being locked up for 21 years are slim to zero. If he is adjudged to be a threat to the public in the future then they can keep him inside for much longer. He was planning it for 2 or 3 years prior. He leased a farm and bought 4 tonnes of fertiliser a few months ago which is what he used for the bomb and obtained the guns legally.

[Guest MattP]

Read a lot of that document yesterday and this morning, quite distressing to say the least....

I have no doubt he's achieved what he wanted to do, he's essentially executed the group of people that would have formed the leadership cadre of the Norwegian labour party, trade unions and the liberal media during the 2030s and 2040s.

Remember norway is a very small country. It's very probable that those who rise to replace them will be of a less quality and his actions have vastly increased the chances of Norway having a centre right wing administration between 2030 - 2045.

Evil nutter to be sure, but he's doubtless achieved everything he intended to do so.

[MC Prussian]

Read a lot of that document yesterday and this morning, quite distressing to say the least....

I have no doubt he's achieved what he wanted to do, he's essentially executed the group of people that would have formed the leadership cadre of the Norwegian labour party, trade unions and the liberal media during the 2030s and 2040s.

Remember norway is a very small country. It's very probable that those who rise to replace them will be of a less quality and his actions have vastly increased the chances of Norway having a centre right wing administration between 2030 - 2045.

Evil nutter to be sure, but he's doubtless achieved everything he intended to do so.

That is debatable and at this point purely hypothetical, because neither you nor I know anything about Norway - he did, however, kill dozens of young people who had a great future and life ahead of them.

Also, for your second claim towards the end - pure speculation.

What I also find rather shocking is that as soon as a "White" guy goes on a killing spree, the term usually used is "nutter".

When I think about it, I have no doubt that there are many other people with the exact same attitude like Breivik. Loners with a hate for everything around them.

The paramilitary forces in the US being an example for that.

Compare that to Islamic suicide bombers and suddenly it's a matter of religion - surely, they're "nutters", too?

[Guest MattP]

That is debatable and at this point purely hypothetical, because neither you nor I know anything about Norway - he did, however, kill dozens of young people who had a great future and life ahead of them.

Also, for your second claim towards the end - pure speculation.

It's my opinion of course. (No one can ever be certain what happens in the future of politics)

It was the youth group of the ruling party who he blames for muslim immigration into Norway, it was clear it was a delibrate target to kill as many of that group as possible.

[Guest MattP]

What I also find rather shocking is that as soon as a "White" guy goes on a killing spree, the term usually used is "nutter".

When I think about it, I have no doubt that there are many other people with the exact same attitude like Breivik. Loners with a hate for everything around them.

Compare that to Islamic suicide bombers and suddenly it's a matter of religion - surely, they're "nutters", too?

Not really, every paper I have opened up has dubbed him a "Christian fundamentalist"

[Guest Bilo]

I am prepared to offer good odds that he will 'commit suicide' in his cell in the next twelve months.

I'd also argue against the notion that Christianity will be subject to the same vilification as Islam would have been if it had been an Islamic fundamentalist who committed this atrocity, there seems to be much more focus on him as an individual rather than the far-right movement which is of course a growing threat in Europe as many with similar views to Breivik become increasingly radicalised, often with the stated intent of protecting Christian culture.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Not really, every paper I have opened up has dubbed him a "Christian fundamentalist"

Aah, papers - the source of wisdom and moderation.

[Guest MattP]

Aah, papers - the source of wisdom and moderation.

Which other source or subject being presented to the mass public would use to try and judge if this is being treated in a difference way?

(News channels I suppose but they have said this numerous times as well)

[Daggers]

I understand the mentalist part but I'm fûcked if I get how what he believes is in any way fun.

[ramboacdc]

I understand the mentalist part but I'm fûcked if I get how what he believes is in any way fun.

religion isnt meant to be fun its based on guilt to keep society running back in the dark ages before the time or laws and such.

[Dr The Singh]

religion isnt meant to be fun its based on guilt to keep society running back in the dark ages before the time or laws and such.

Lets not be so ignorant, not all religions are the same, lets not tarnish all with the same brush!

[Trav Le Bleu]

Indeed. Some of the fundamental teachings of Jesus were to love your neighbour as yourself and do to others as you would want them to do to you. The parable of the Good Samaritan teaches that you should help the needy, even if they are from a background different from yourself (The Jews hated Samaritans).

So just because someone says they are a "fundamentalist Christian"doesn't mean they are. What shows your belief? Your words or your actions? Too many bad things have been done in the "name of God", when actually all they are are the actions of the cowardly, the evil, the insane, or all three.

[Dr The Singh]

Indeed. Some of the fundamental teachings of Jesus were to love your neighbour as yourself and do to others as you would want them to do to you. The parable of the Good Samaritan teaches that you should help the needy, even if they are from a background different from yourself (The Jews hated Samaritans).

So just because someone says they are a "fundamentalist Christian"doesn't mean they are. What shows your belief? Your words or your actions? Too many bad things have been done in the "name of God", when actually all they are are the actions of the cowardly, the evil, the insane, or all three.

It's very easy to blame religion, belief, culture, background etc, not to say either or neither may have an effect in influencing our actions. But as sentient beings we have the ability to make up our own minds and know right from wrong, and to the extreme the ability to know that taking INNOCENT life is no way in this world a justified act.

I put innocent is caps cus there are mo fo's in this world and beyond that deserve to die!!!

[Nick]

It's very easy to blame religion, belief, culture, background etc, not to say either or neither may have an effect in influencing our actions. But as sentient beings we have the ability to make up our own minds and know right from wrong, and to the extreme the ability to know that taking INNOCENT life is no way in this world a justified act.

I put innocent is caps cus there are mo fo's in this world and beyond that deserve to die!!!

If that's another dig at me I'll have you know that I have been very good this week.

Racist.

[Dr The Singh]

If that's another dig at me I'll have you know that I have been very good this week.

Racist.

You and your kind, I still blame you for the 'The Raj', and the extinction of the dinosaurs!!

How are you buddy, you comming to the game next week, if that's no, it will only confirm my beliefs that your a racist fundamentalist from english pagan beliefs!!!

[Nick]

You and your kind, I still blame you for the 'The Raj', and the extinction of the dinosaurs!!

How are you buddy, you comming to the game next week, if that's no, it will only confirm my beliefs that your a racist fundamentalist from english pagan beliefs!!!

I have to go to a Christening in London for a white child.

I'm sure I'll catch a stream.

Apart from all the bloody whites round here (They all look the same) I'm fine mate.

How did it turn out at work?

[Dr The Singh]

I have to go to a Christening in London for a white child.

I'm sure I'll catch a stream.

Apart from all the bloody whites round here (They all look the same) I'm fine mate.

How did it turn out at work?

I can see where you get your fundamentalist beliefs from, is this a catholic church??

I'll tell you about work the next time I see you buddy, in the meantime, I will PM on your Stormfront account!!!

As they say, there's no black in the union jack!!!!!!!

[Nick]

I can see where you get your fundamentalist beliefs from, is this a catholic church??

I'll tell you about work the next time I see you buddy, in the meantime, I will PM on your Stormfront account!!!

As they say, there's no black in the union jack!!!!!!!

Something Italian I believe - apparently I'll be less likely to be killed if I refrain from engaging in speech.

No news or stereotypes there then.

[Guest Bilo]

Breivik claims link to EDL. EDL deny all knowledge.

Anders Behring Breivik, the man behind the Norway killings that left 93 people dead, began his journey in extremist rightwing politics at a small meeting in London in 2002, according to his online manifesto, and may have attended a far right demonstration in the UK as recently as last year.

In a 1,467-page document that contains chilling details of his preparations for Friday's attacks, Breivik outlines his UK links, claiming he met eight other extremists from across Europe in London in 2002 to "re-form" the Knights Templar Europe – a group whose purpose was "to seize political and military control of western European countries and implement a cultural conservative political agenda".

The manifesto, signed "Andrew Berwick London 2011", contains repeated references to his links to the UK far right group the English Defence League. On Sunday there were unconfirmed reports from one of the organisation's supporters that the 32-year-old had attended at least one EDL demonstration in the UK in 2010.

"ar one or two doubt the rest of us ever met him, altho he did come over for one of our demo in 2010 … but what he did was wrong," said an EDL member online.

In the manifesto titled 2083: A European Declaration of Independence, Breivik writes: "I used to have more than 600 EDL members as Facebook friends and have spoken with tens of EDL members and leaders. In fact; I was one of the individuals who supplied them with processed ideological material (including rhetorical strategies) in the very beginning."

The EDL – which has staged a series of street demonstrations, many of which have turned violent, since it was formed two years ago – issued a statement on Sunday condemning the attacks in Norway. It added that the league was a peaceful organisation which rejected all forms of extremism.

"There has never been any official contact between him and the EDL, our Facebook page had 100,000 supporters and receives tens of thousands of comments each day," it added. "And there is no evidence that Breivik was ever one of those 100,000 supporters."

The group pointed out that Breivik was critical of the EDL in the "manifesto", describing it as "dangerously naive".

Another UK-based organisation, Stop Islamisation of Europe , told Reuters that Breivik had tried to join their Facebook group but had been rejected over his apparent neo-Nazi links. However, they said it was possible he had attended one of its demonstrations.

Emblazoned with a red Iron Cross and published in English, the manifesto appeared online a few hours before the attacks. It appears to be a mixture of bomb-making manual, diary and political rant against a range of perceived enemies from "cultural Marxists" to Muslims, liberals and journalists.

It includes an detailed diary covering the 82 days leading up to the attacks which reveals Breivik's mood swings, his attempts to make explosives on a remote farm and even his favourite DVDs.

On the day he was to kill 93 people Breivik wrote: "The old saying; 'If you want something done, then do it yourself' is as relevant now as it was then." A few hours later he added: "I believe this will be my last entry. It is now Fri July 22nd, 12.51." Berwick signed off "AB Justiciar Knight Commander, cell 8, Knights Templar Europe."

The document details Breivik's isolated life on the farm as he carried out meticulous preparations for the attack, testing explosives and obtaining weapons.

It reveals an obsession with the Crusades and a supposed threat to Christian Europe posed by Muslim immigrants and mainstream political leaders. Breivik predicts a European civil war will take place in three stages, ending in 2083 with the execution of "cultural Marxists" and the deportation of all Muslims.

Friday's attack was being planned for at least 18 months, according to the document. Breivik expresses concern that preparations for the attack and the manifesto would alert the security services.

"I do fear sometimes that my endeavours relating to the research of the book, and acquisitions of these addresses has resulted in me being put on various watch lists," an entry dated March 2010 reads. "The question is; have they flagged me? I guess I will find out eventually."

In one section Breivik argues that is better to kill civilians than those who would offer more resistance, writing: "It is much more rational and pragmatical to focus on the easier unprotected targets instead of sacrificing good men on an impossible target … we should target unprotected category A and B traitors first and foremost."

He goes on to outline plans for a possible attack on a gathering of investigative journalists which he says is one of the "most attractive" potential targets.

"To illustrate; in Norway, there is an annual gathering … where the most notable journalists/editors from all the nations media/news companies attend (500 delegates - 98% of them are considered 'quality category B traitor targets'."

He sets out a detailed plan for a car or lorry bomb "covered with layers of projectiles for maximum damage" followed by an attack with rifles and flame throwers.

Breivik advocates attacks on traitors across Europe. "[W]e should under normal (optimal) circumstances not exceed (per 2010) aprox. 45 000 dead and 1 million wounded cultural Marxists/multiculturalists in Western Europe."

Anti-racist groups in the UK said they were not aware of the Knights Templar Europe and cautioned that Breivik may have made up some or all of the details.