Fighting on the Frontline

[The Year Of The Fox]

Shocking lack of tact and class. All war is a tragedy and especially the insurgency taking place in Afghanistan right now, i know plenty of lads who have come back from there...and none of them would even contemplate coming out with such vile, fist pumping nonsense that you just have.

I probably know just as many. All who would have the same attitude as me. It's just a squaddie sense of humour I guess. Oh, and the video clips were shown at bastion to troops there in order to raise moral. so I guess that will eradicate any self righteous opinions you have. It probably won't, but it should do.

[Finnegan]

I understand the need to de-humanize the conflict when you're in it. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq don't really sit right with my own personal politics, especially not when you consider the expense they'll have drummed up against the backdrop of the current economic situation.

But righteous or not in my eyes, there's no doubting that - essentially - these are guys that have gone over to topple two fairly horrendous regimes and it isn't their fault that NATO states have failed so spectacularly to replace them with stable, liveable environments for the local populace.

When killing people is your profession and the world is telling you there's a need for folk like you, you're going to need to rationalize constitutionally-endorsed murder when you're actually confronted with a corpse you've created so I completely understand the banter and the humour within the armed forces, the sort of attitude you're displaying here. That's fine.

But the significant keywords there are "within the armed forces." That's not where you are now, if you ever were. You're not the only one that knows squaddies, lots of us do, but the key difference between a soldier and a psychopath is the ability to switch off and thread back in to society when they get home. Some can't, some come back pretty ****ed up and need a lot of help from the state (which, sadly, isn't always given) but some were just complete fucking cunts BEFORE they went and there ain't much hope for them when they get back.

[The Year Of The Fox]

I understand the need to de-humanize the conflict when you're in it. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq don't really sit right with my own personal politics, especially not when you consider the expense they'll have drummed up against the backdrop of the current economic situation.

But righteous or not in my eyes, there's no doubting that - essentially - these are guys that have gone over to topple two fairly horrendous regimes and it isn't their fault that NATO states have failed so spectacularly to replace them with stable, liveable environments for the local populace.

When killing people is your profession and the world is telling you there's a need for folk like you, you're going to need to rationalize constitutionally-endorsed murder when you're actually confronted with a corpse you've created so I completely understand the banter and the humour within the armed forces, the sort of attitude you're displaying here. That's fine.

But the significant keywords there are "within the armed forces." That's not where you are now, if you ever were. You're not the only one that knows squaddies, lots of us do, but the key difference between a soldier and a psychopath is the ability to switch off and thread back in to society when they get home. Some can't, some come back pretty ****ed up and need a lot of help from the state (which, sadly, isn't always given) but some were just complete fucking cunts BEFORE they went and there ain't much hope for them when they get back.

At last, an objective post

[Zingari]

I agree with finners in the main, but would just like to add something.

We breed and train military Rottwiellers for the sole purpose of fighting our wars,

(whether just or unjust, they don’t make the decisions ) and these dogs of war do our bidding , so it’s no use complaining when they behave like Rottwiellers.

Whilst I don’t particularly like Stu’s attitude , I can at least understand why he may be as he is .

Maybe I am in a small minority of those who has watched the film “ A Few Good Men” and had a lot of sympathy for Colonel Jessep

different scenario maybe , but i believe the point of it is still relevant

[jonno24]

At last, an objective post

I doubt that was your objective when you posted your original thaughts on the program.

I tbh cant stand all the programmes that come out about our armed forces i know like the rest of us that every single one of these guys and girls are heroes.

What i dont need is to be told about it every 5 minutes and to be told how easy i have it.

Lets just let them do their job and stop trying to make them out to be some sort of celebrity.

[21st Century Fox]

Anyone watching this on channel 4?

It's brilliant watching the rag heads get blown up by the Apache missiles!

I know, its shocking that the British have gone in to rescue two of the bastards who were only injured by a missile. Leave the badtards to die

Sorry, what's wrong at finding it funny watching the enemy of our country being killed?

And you're probably just a pansy

At last, an objective post

So you posted all this in search of objective replies!?

[The Year Of The Fox]

So you posted all this in search of objective replies!?

No not necessarily to be honest. Though rather some idiots spouting shite, haydos, if you're going to comment on something/someone you know nothing about, then at least try and make an informed reply.

[Rincewind]

looks even worse when grouped together.

I know films are made just for entertainment but sometimes when James Bond for instance has just killed of a few hundred of the enemy single-handedly in many different ways. blown up, pumped with a round of machine gun fire burnt, dropped off a tall building on their head, thrown out of a plane and so on I can't help thinking how he doesn't have nightmares. Would making love with a beautiful foreign double agent take away the images of all those dead bodies?

[FoxyPV]

looks even worse when grouped together.

I know films are made just for entertainment but sometimes when James Bond for instance has just killed of a few hundred of the enemy single-handedly in many different ways. blown up, pumped with a round of machine gun fire burnt, dropped off a tall building on their head, thrown out of a plane and so on I can't help thinking how he doesn't have nightmares. Would making love with a beautiful foreign double agent take away the images of all those dead bodies?

That's why he's an alcoholic. Have you ever tasted a vodka martini? It's rocket fuel

[Haydos]

No not necessarily to be honest. Though rather some idiots spouting shite, haydos, if you're going to comment on something/someone you know nothing about, then at least try and make an informed reply.

It's hilarious how you try to act all high and mighty after spouting unintelligent shit like "Anyone watching this on channel 4? It's brilliant watching the rag heads get blown up by the Apache missiles!" in your OP. That really stinks of wanting to start an intellectual discussion on the armed forces.

[Houdini Logic]

Lolz

Fucking idiot

[The Year Of The Fox]

That's a silly post though. It's a kid, who probably was caught in fire. Do you really think I find that funny?

The people who were blown up on the program last night were taliban. One had been laying IEDs, maiming or even killing someone we perhaps know.

[Rincewind]

It doesnt matter. Laughing about it is not funny in any circumstances. War is not funny now in the past or the future.

My Thoughts about war

[Charl91]

Anyone watching this on channel 4?

It's brilliant watching the rag heads get blown up by the Apache missiles!

Idiot.

[somebum]

I want to get into it but I just don't have the will..

That just about sums it up for me also. It's one thing supporting the troops but there is no glory in senseless death in battle.

[Samilktray]

People are surprised by this?

Everything I've seen him post has left me thinking hes a vile little cunt.

[The Year Of The Fox]

People are surprised by this?

Everything I've seen him post has left me thinking hes a vile little cunt.

More fool you then. I'm just a normal bloke, who writes what he thinks. of course, I didn't expect everyone to agree with my comments, especially with the way I wrote them. Doesn't make me a vile little **** though. In fact, id say I'm quite a likeable bloke in person.

[21st Century Fox]

More fool you then. I'm just a normal bloke, who writes what he thinks. of course, I didn't expect everyone to agree with my comments, especially with the way I wrote them. Doesn't make me a vile little **** though. In fact, id say I'm quite a likeable bloke in person.

I'll be honest I don't know anyone who'd think like you do, from what you've written in this thread you come across as a borderline psychopath, devoid of empathy.

What exactly would you do differently if Britain was invaded by a foreign force? Thats not to undermine our troops who are doing a job.

[The Year Of The Fox]

I'll be honest I don't know anyone who'd think like you do, from what you've written in this thread you come across as a borderline psychopath, devoid of empathy.

What exactly would you do differently if Britain was invaded by a foreign force? Thats not to undermine our troops who are doing a job.

I can see why some people would say I sound psychotic to be fair. The fact is though for the troops, seeing the enemy being killed symbolises one less enemy to worry about. As finnegan rightly our, its just dehumanising what's being done. I don't want to sound (can't think of the word, *where you sound as if you're talking down to someone) but its just squaddies humour. Pretty sick humour perhaps, in the eyes of civilians, but there you go.

I'm not sure if its the way I wrote it (though I genuinely don't see what the big deal is about being happy at seeing an enemy die) or the fact I used the term rag heads which has pissed so many people off. I'm not going to apoligse for it though.

I don't see how you can compare us invading Afghan to Britain being invaded. But if we were under a dictatorship or had the equivalent of the taliban running amock in this country, then is be crying out for an invading force similar to Britain to come and help us.

[The Doctor]

I can see why some people would say I sound psychotic to be fair. The fact is though for the troops, seeing the enemy being killed symbolises one less enemy to worry about. As finnegan rightly our, its just dehumanising what's being done. I don't want to sound (can't think of the word, *where you sound as if you're talking down to someone) but its just squaddies humour. Pretty sick humour perhaps, in the eyes of civilians, but there you go.

I'm not sure if its the way I wrote it (though I genuinely don't see what the big deal is about being happy at seeing an enemy die) or the fact I used the term rag heads which has pissed so many people off. I'm not going to apoligse for it though.

I don't see how you can compare us invading Afghan to Britain being invaded. But if we were under a dictatorship or had the equivalent of the taliban running amock in this country, then is be crying out for an invading force similar to Britain to come and help us.

Condescending?

Quite frankly I can't understand why anyone would take pleasure in seeing someone, anyone, die. I can understand that maybe you wouldn't feel sorry for them, given we are at war with them, but to actually revel in seeing them be killed - that's just messed up and, IMO, a clear sign of being mentally disturbed.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Condescending?

Quite frankly I can't understand why anyone would take pleasure in seeing someone, anyone, die. I can understand that maybe you wouldn't feel sorry for them, given we are at war with them, but to actually revel in seeing them be killed - that's just messed up and, IMO, a clear sign of being mentally disturbed.

Patronising.

I don't think so large al. I'd just say you're at the other extreme to me. You don't like the idea of military, and you may have led a pretty sheltered life up to now. ( that sound patronising and condescending, but you know I don't mean it to be)

[Freeman's Wharfer]

I doubt that was your objective when you posted your original thaughts on the program.

I tbh cant stand all the programmes that come out about our armed forces i know like the rest of us that every single one of these guys and girls are heroes.

What i dont need is to be told about it every 5 minutes and to be told how easy i have it.

Lets just let them do their job and stop trying to make them out to be some sort of celebrity.

Just wanted to make a point about this that always bugs me.

You say you can't stand these programmes but that you "know these guys and girls are heroes", for me that's really interesting because I see it the two as being fairly interlinked.

The current climate in Britain seems to be to promote the armed forces as these heroes that the rest of Britain is somehow indebted to and much of this comes through the television programmes centered on them. I personally don't consider every member of the armed forces a hero. For me, a hero is someone who does something exceptional, someone who goes above and beyond when they need not have done.

For me this doesn't constitute the whole of the British armed forces. Yes, I have no doubt that it must be tough fighting out in Afganistan or Iraq, and there must be some really bad experiences. But this doesn't make you a hero. All of those guys and girls signed up to do that (or at least with the knowledge that there was a chance that they could be asked to do that) and are being paid to do so. Acts of individual bravery can determine a hero amongst the paid masses when in action, and these people might rightly be dubbed a hero, but the rest are doing their job.

Do I want to fight in Afganistan? No. So I won't join the army. However if I were prepared to do that job complete with all of the potential risks I knew it entailed then I wouldn't suddenly become a hero. I'd be doing my job.

The current 'Help for Heroes' climate does my nut in. At the moment the majority of sponsored events that I get asked to give money to is 'Help for Heroes' and I often think why should I? The help and support for injured soldiers may not be as good as it could or perhaps should be, but why should I give money to a charity to help someone who was injured doing a job in which they knew there was the potential for that happen over, say, a cancer charity that helps some poor man, woman or child who was purely unfortunate enough to get cancer?

But of course you can't say this. How dare you not support our brave boys, our heroes out there fighting some war against a foreign force in a war that largely divides opinion (and I'm not definitely against the war so this isn't the reasoning behind my opinion). And the whole climate has just spiralled and ballooned into a state where this is how we're told to see things, and where many in the forces believe the hype themselves.

There are many examples that I have encountered in recent memory where there has been outrage because, for example, a squaddie hasn't been let into a bar with his forces ID. And the reaction we're supposed to have is disgust that this guy who's 'fighting for his country' can't get into a bar in the very country he is defending with his forces ID. Well why does he need to use his forces ID?! He's a British citizen first and a soldier second. He, like the rest of us, has a passport and a driving license. Two forms of ID, take your pick.

I am mindful not to generalise but I've encountered a large-scale arrogance from lads in the forces. As if they believe they are heroes and the rest of society isn't worthy. The thing is, most of us could join the army. And most of the lads I know that have done have done so because they couldn't really do anything else. They're not now heroes because they have done so and the rest of us haven't. As someone else said, they are effectively fighting dogs, trained to follow commands without question. But as this Stu chap has said earlier in this thread there's a squaddie sense of humour that we can't comprehend, because we're not in the forces....

I wouldn't label him as vile, or a cvnt, as others have. I just think he's a little thick. A classic example of someone that's been swept up in this 'heroes' climate, and has lost the inability to think for himself (if he ever had it) which would explain why he says what he says (using terms such as 'rag heads') and how he fits in with the 'squaddie' culture/philosophy.

Programmes like this are interesting. In the same way that I might find it interesting to see the work of paramedics or firefighters in everyday life. But they are not, in the large, portrayals of the work of heroes.

[Rincewind]

The OP did not say 'It is good to see the Tahlaban who are our enemy being taken out. It said wasn't it funny to see the cloth heads blown up by missiles.

This indercates to me that anyone being killed wearing those items is funny be it a person setting a mine woman or child..

That I found a little sick.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Just wanted to make a point about this that always bugs me.

You say you can't stand these programmes but that you "know these guys and girls are heroes", for me that's really interesting because I see it the two as being fairly interlinked.

The current climate in Britain seems to be to promote the armed forces as these heroes that the rest of Britain is somehow indebted to and much of this comes through the television programmes centered on them. I personally don't consider every member of the armed forces a hero. For me, a hero is someone who does something exceptional, someone who goes above and beyond when they need not have done.

For me this doesn't constitute the whole of the British armed forces. Yes, I have no doubt that it must be tough fighting out in Afganistan or Iraq, and there must be some really bad experiences. But this doesn't make you a hero. All of those guys and girls signed up to do that (or at least with the knowledge that there was a chance that they could be asked to do that) and are being paid to do so. Acts of individual bravery can determine a hero amongst the paid masses when in action, and these people might rightly be dubbed a hero, but the rest are doing their job.

Do I want to fight in Afganistan? No. So I won't join the army. However if I were prepared to do that job complete with all of the potential risks I knew it entailed then I wouldn't suddenly become a hero. I'd be doing my job.

The current 'Help for Heroes' climate does my nut in. At the moment the majority of sponsored events that I get asked to give money to is 'Help for Heroes' and I often think why should I? The help and support for injured soldiers may not be as good as it could or perhaps should be, but why should I give money to a charity to help someone who was injured doing a job in which they knew there was the potential for that happen over, say, a cancer charity that helps some poor man, woman or child who was purely unfortunate enough to get cancer?

But of course you can't say this. How dare you not support our brave boys, our heroes out there fighting some war against a foreign force in a war that largely divides opinion (and I'm not definitely against the war so this isn't the reasoning behind my opinion). And the whole climate has just spiralled and ballooned into a state where this is how we're told to see things, and where many in the forces believe the hype themselves.

There are many examples that I have encountered in recent memory where there has been outrage because, for example, a squaddie hasn't been let into a bar with his forces ID. And the reaction we're supposed to have is disgust that this guy who's 'fighting for his country' can't get into a bar in the very country he is defending with his forces ID. Well why does he need to use his forces ID?! He's a British citizen first and a soldier second. He, like the rest of us, has a passport and a driving license. Two forms of ID, take your pick.

I am mindful not to generalise but I've encountered a large-scale arrogance from lads in the forces. As if they believe they are heroes and the rest of society isn't worthy. The thing is, most of us could join the army. And most of the lads I know that have done have done so because they couldn't really do anything else. They're not now heroes because they have done so and the rest of us haven't. As someone else said, they are effectively fighting dogs, trained to follow commands without question. But as this Stu chap has said earlier in this thread there's a squaddie sense of humour that we can't comprehend, because we're not in the forces....

I wouldn't label him as vile, or a cvnt, as others have. I just think he's a little thick. A classic example of someone that's been swept up in this 'heroes' climate, and has lost the inability to think for himself (if he ever had it) which would explain why he says what he says (using terms such as 'rag heads') and how he fits in with the 'squaddie' culture/philosophy.

Programmes like this are interesting. In the same way that I might find it interesting to see the work of paramedics or firefighters in everyday life. But they are not, in the large, portrayals of the work of heroes.

Loads of points to make on this.

For the majority squaddies do not think themselves as heroes. They are merely 'doing their job' as you said. If the BBC etc want to make programs and broadcast them, then thats up to them. Thats not the soldiers' fault. The same with wherever they're fighting. They dont choose where they go to war, the government do. They're not to blame for the acclaim they get, nor are they to blame whether a war is legal.

Some squaddies are arrogant. Not (broadly) because they believe they're heroes, but because the rest of the population are 'civvies' Its something to be scorned on. 'Civvy fuker' is used by pretty much every soldier in the army. Any job in civvy street is to be laughed at etc etc. So yeh, some are arrogant, but not because they think they're heroes. I suppose its more to do with being self disciplined. Thats certainly the case when you're a young soldier, and the NCOs would contrast them with, say a student dossing around in bed til 1pm on a Monday morning.

The ID thing, whilst you make a good point, is pretty unreasonable. The ID card says something along the lines of, 'This is an official MOD document' Its not something that can be copied such as a driving license, so why not accept them?

Completely disagree with you saying that 'anyone could join the army' Certainly anyone with any level of intelligence could join the army. But it takes something I can't desecribe to get though the basic training. Mentally and physically. They literally break you as a person and build you back up. So many in my training platoon, who thought they were hard (they perhaps were) on their local streets dropped out. I can only go on my platoon, I can't speak for the reast of them at our barracks, some definitely had it easy. Our own NCOs actually admitted that had the higher ranks found out what had been going on, they could've been thrown out the army themselves.

I DO however agree, in a way, with yours and Large Als way of thinking, in that just because you're in the forces, it does not automatucally make you a hero. But I certainly have not, and never will be 'swept up in the heroes climate' All I will say, is that whatever you think of the reasoning behind people joining, you should be grateful to each and everyone, not because they're all heroes, but them joining means that you don't have to.

[The Year Of The Fox]

The OP did not say 'It is good to see the Tahlaban who are our enemy being taken out. It said wasn't it funny to see the cloth heads blown up by missiles.

This indercates to me that anyone being killed wearing those items is funny be it a person setting a mine woman or child..

That I found a little sick.

If you'd watched the program then you'd have seen that at one point the Apache pilot was watching a woman carrying a machine gun. For whatever reason he didn't fire, then she chucked the weapon in a ditch, meaning he was legally unable to fire at her anyway. But he made a point of saying he'd have no problems killing a woman, in the same way he'd kill a male taliban. They don't go round firing missiles at anyone with a turban. He said it has to be 'proven beyond any doubt' that they're taliban before they can act. An IED laid by a woman is just as lethal as one laid by a man. Similarily a machine gun being fired.