Legalise cannabis?

[Guest MattP]

I conceded in my first sentence that it isn't as bad as elsewhere, but when your argument is "at least it's not as bad as..." then you're tacitly admitting that yes, it is wrong, and being relatively less bad doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop it.

 

Absolutely, we need to make a decision either way in my opinion. The here nor there laws are confusing, don't address any real issues and leave people without a clear definition of what is acceptable, what isn't and whether the risks are worth it.

[ADK]

We try to target dealers more than consumers, I think this is reasonably fair.

[Guest MattP]

We try to target dealers more than consumers, I think this is reasonably fair.

 

Absolutely.

[Carl the Llama]

We try to target dealers more than consumers, I think this is reasonably fair.

And the best way to do this is by forcing them to go legitimate or lose their clients.

[Webbo]

And the best way to do this is by forcing them to go legitimate or lose their clients.

And you are assuming that they will be willing and able to register for tax, health and safety and planning legislation.

[James.]

When you read the following stats from that Transform website I think it's fair to say "war" is the most appropriate term from a global perspective. We're not talking about a slap on the wrist for carrying a few grams of weed.

 

Mexico: over 100,000 deaths from drug violence (2006-present)

US: over a ten fold increase in number of people imprisoned for drug offences over past 40 years

Russia: 93% of all HIV infections from drug users

Iran: 600 executions for drug offences in 2010

UK: £2-4 billion spent

 

Even if you disagree with legalising I would hope we all agree that a change of approach is desperately required. Until people put aside their preconceptions and until the press stop scaremongering it'll be very hard for any of those above trends to improve.

[ADK]

I'd still only consider legalising weed.

 

Most of those figures are going to come from other drugs.

[Guest MattP]

When you read the following stats from that Transform website I think it's fair to say "war" is the most appropriate term from a global perspective. We're not talking about a slap on the wrist for carrying a few grams of weed.

 

Mexico: over 100,000 deaths from drug violence (2006-present)

US: over a ten fold increase in number of people imprisoned for drug offences over past 40 years

Russia: 93% of all HIV infections from drug users

Iran: 600 executions for drug offences in 2010

UK: £2-4 billion spent

 

Even if you disagree with legalising I would hope we all agree that a change of approach is desperately required. Until people put aside their preconceptions and until the press stop scaremongering it'll be very hard for any of those above trends to improve.

 

Hardly any of that is connected to Cannabis.

[Carl the Llama]

And you are assuming that they will be willing and able to register for tax, health and safety and planning legislation.

If they're a big player then they probably will.  But I'm not cut up about the idea of your average street dealer not being able to open his own shop and losing his business because of it. If half the ones I've met are anything to go by it would just force them into looking for real jobs to make up for their lost income(in fact a lot of them were only dealers until they got real jobs...) in case anyone's worried it would turn Britain's street dealers into violent criminals.

[Manwell Pablo]

Hold on......it's legal to sell drugs in Portugal???

 

I did think there were a lot of people selling coke in broad day light.

[James.]

Hardly any of that is connected to Cannabis.

 

Sorry most of my posts have been on general drugs policy and given you took issue with use of the word war I was keen to point out that it's actually quite appropriate when you look at the global problem.

 

With regards cannabis specifically I actually think the dangers are often understated and people don't realise the damage it can do until too late. But to me that just strengthens the argument for a different approach.

 

Education, control, stop criminalising the users and disrupt the illegal supply chain.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I do think if we legalised it, consumption would increase dramatically.

 

It's very hard to tell what would happen, but if you mean in the sense of more people would be indulging, I'm not so sure.  That would assume that its current illegality is the primary barrier to usage in the general population - I think it's probably a reason, amongst many others individuals use to weigh up making such a decision, but you'd struggle to convince me that there are significant numbers of potential users that are only holding back from using because of its legal status

[Vacamion]

if you ran a low-key grow-op for yourself and a few friends

Cannabis grows as naturally as tomatoes.

If we discount the utterly "Nanny State Gone Mad" attitude that some people have concerns about users in a post-prohibition world failing to excercise self-control and making pigs of themselves (like they can currently do with chocolate, fatty foods or indeed with weight loss or cosmetic surgery or exercise), the only remaining objections appear to rest on outdated abrahamic religion concepts of "sin" - ie. that a Bogeyman in the sky can be offended about the fun you can have between your own ears.

An adult growing their own and smoking their own within the confines of their private residence is harming no one else. That they may (or may not) be harming themselves is their own business for which they would take personal responsibility.

Can't see any justification why home growing and use at home is still illegal, TBH.

[Rincewind]

I have not commented much in this thread but if cannabis was legal surely it would only 'seem' like use was increasing as many that use it recreationly would come out the closet so to speak and be added to the figures.

As a non user it would not affect me and I would not take it up just because it was legal. The majority that would use it are those that use it now or would find an illegal source if tempted.

[The God Emperor]

I understand the libertarian argument and I have some sympathy with it but if we're being practical instead of ideological you have to recognise that legalising drugs will create more addicts, more mental illness and will make life worse for a lot of people. 

drug users and low level dealers filling up prisons costing the tax payer money, billions in the coffers of drug cartels, incredibly dangerous moonshine drugs flooding the market due the conditions created by prohibition and no way of guaranteeing any standard of quality. If that's what's practical than the bar must be set pretty low.   

[Rincewind]

Far cheaper to set up programs and clinics than send users to prison. 36k per year the cost for each male prison o56k female

[Webbo]

drug users and low level dealers filling up prisons costing the tax payer money, billions in the coffers of drug cartels, incredibly dangerous moonshine drugs flooding the market due the conditions created by prohibition and no way of guaranteeing any standard of quality. If that's what's practical than the bar must be set pretty low.   

If that sort of thing offends you then perhaps you shouldn't be taking drugs?

 

 

(When I say you I didn't mean you personally).

[ADK]

Agree with that. The drug addicts lobby is very selfish really.

[The God Emperor]

If that sort of thing offends you then perhaps you shouldn't be taking drugs?

 

 

(When I say you I didn't mean you personally).

those sort of thing happen when people buy drugs from the black market. legalise and bring into the legal market and no money for drug cartels, less people taking up spaces in prisons, less dangerous moonshine drugs and wealth for the nation

[Webbo]

If you compare the drugs situation with prohibition in the US in the 30s, prohibition was repealed because it was believed to be fueling organised crime. The questions I'd ask are;

 

Is there less organised crime in the US now than then?

Are there less alcoholics now than then?

Have alcohol related deaths fallen?

Is there less crime caused by alcoholic consumption now than then? 

 

I don't have any figures but I doubt if the answer to any of those questions is yes. Anyone who thinks that legalising drugs will make these problems go away is kidding themselves.

[The God Emperor]

If you compare the drugs situation with prohibition in the US in the 30s, prohibition was repealed because it was believed to be fueling organised crime. The questions I'd ask are;

 

Is there less organised crime in the US now than then?

Are there less alcoholics now than then?

Have alcohol related deaths fallen?

Is there less crime caused by alcoholic consumption now than then? 

 

I don't have any figures but I doubt if the answer to any of those questions is yes. Anyone who thinks that legalising drugs will make these problems go away is kidding themselves.

Of course theirs more organised crime, the legalised alcohol but still have a load of other stuff criminals can sell on the black market.

it isn't about whether it would reduce addicts or users. people should be able to put what they want into their own body as long as they are willing to be held accountable and deal with problems that will arise from this. if their not, then they make the decisions millions make which is to not take those substances. 

[Webbo]

Of course theirs more organised crime, the legalised alcohol but still have a load of other stuff criminals can sell on the black market.

it isn't about whether it would reduce addicts or users. people should be able to put what they want into their own body as long as they are willing to be held accountable and deal with problems that will arise from this. if their not, then they make the decisions millions make which is to not take those substances. 

In theory yes but the actions of individuals have repercussions for others. I know someone whose stepson is a habitual cannabis user and he makes their lives a misery and that of his wife and child. Others in this thread have given their stories. Making drugs legal won't change that.

[The God Emperor]

In theory yes but the actions of individuals have repercussions for others. I know someone whose stepson is a habitual cannabis user and he makes their lives a misery and that of his wife and child. Others in this thread have given their stories. Making drugs legal won't change that.

keeping it illegal hasn't done an awful lot to stop it either. legalisation wont make utopia, but it would be an improvement 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I work with murderers and rapists. I can't say for sure that cannabis has had a 100% baring on their mental state and has caused them to commit their index offences, but, it's had a massive effect for the negative. I DO NOT CARE what anyone says, I know you become paranoid smoking that shite.

It also cannot cause schizophrenia, however, if you are susceptible then there's a very good chance you'll be "found out".

My brother is fvcked up and I 100% blame cannabis. When he kills someone (or himself) I'll be on here to update you all. Again, as pointed out earlier, you can't say cannabis 100% leads to harder drugs every time, but in this case, it has. He's now on methadone. I don't understand how you get to that exact point in your life where you've got a needle in your hand ready to stick in in your arm.

There will always be those who go through their lives and be ok. I get that. They are the lucky few.

Anyone who smokes it because they think they are cleaver and big, I hope you end up like my brother.

Excellent post.     

 

Yes it can screw people up, but some people just can't see it, or refuse to admit it. It's a human weakness.

[ealingfox]

If you compare the drugs situation with prohibition in the US in the 30s, prohibition was repealed because it was believed to be fueling organised crime. The questions I'd ask are;

 

Is there less organised crime in the US now than then?

Are there less alcoholics now than then?

Have alcohol related deaths fallen?

Is there less crime caused by alcoholic consumption now than then? 

 

I don't have any figures but I doubt if the answer to any of those questions is yes. Anyone who thinks that legalising drugs will make these problems go away is kidding themselves.

 

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There are all sorts of reasons that the answers to those questions are yes, not just a question of legality.

 

Mickey O'Neil, on 01 Jan 2014 - 4:13 PM, said:

I work with murderers and rapists. I can't say for sure that cannabis has had a 100% baring on their mental state and has caused them to commit their index offences, but, it's had a massive effect for the negative. I DO NOT CARE what anyone says, I know you become paranoid smoking that shite.

It also cannot cause schizophrenia, however, if you are susceptible then there's a very good chance you'll be "found out".

My brother is fvcked up and I 100% blame cannabis. When he kills someone (or himself) I'll be on here to update you all. Again, as pointed out earlier, you can't say cannabis 100% leads to harder drugs every time, but in this case, it has. He's now on methadone. I don't understand how you get to that exact point in your life where you've got a needle in your hand ready to stick in in your arm.

There will always be those who go through their lives and be ok. I get that. They are the lucky few.

Anyone who smokes it because they think they are cleaver and big, I hope you end up like my brother.

 

No chance of blaming your brother for smoking the cannabis? It's not addictive, and it doesn't make you take other drugs.