Boycott - Leeds Away

[Bilo]

Absolutely, any chance of spreading the word on WACCOE?

This is a great opportunity to boycott.

Go for it if you've an account there.

[ThurnbyLodgeFox]

I'm aware that some people can't afford to go, I don't get to that many away games myself, but that's different to boycotting the game. If you can afford to and intended to go a few days ago then the only thing that has changed is we're out of the play-off push, I'm not so much having a go at those people, it's their money, just saying that if they felt so strongly why is it many intended to go to the game before our loss to Millwall? (I'm assuming they did and this has been started yesterday/today if not then I apologize.)

I think people were planning on boycotting before but their minds were made up after yesterday

[Bilo]

German club fans set for boycott

By John Sinnott

Two historic matches take place in the industrial heartlands of England and Germany this Sunday that throw into focus just how little Premier League fans have been able to influence boardroom change.

Thousands of Liverpool supporters will make the trip to watch their team play Manchester United at Old Trafford, with large majorities of both sets of fans unhappy about the way their clubs have been run by their respective American owners.

Over in Germany, thousands of Borussia Dortmund fans are similarly unhappy - with the major difference that they will not be travelling to watch their team take on Schalke in the Bundesliga.

A boycott has been organised in protest against a hike in visitor ticket prices and 1,500 Dortmund fans have already returned their tickets. Many supporters have been unable to get refunds but still will not travel.

More than 300 different Dortmund supporter groups across Germany are involved in the boycott, which is designed to highlight unease at being asked to pay more than 22 euro (£19) for a standing ticket. Last season, Schalke were charging 13.50 euro for the same match, while Liverpool fans will have to fork out £51 for a ticket at Old Trafford.

One day we will have the keys to Liverpool - maybe not in my lifetime - but I genuinely believe it will happen

Spirit of Shankly's James McKenna

"This protest is not aimed towards Schalke but against the price hike which basically every club here in Germany is part of," Stephan Uersfeld, of the German fanzine Schwatzgelb, told BBC Sport.

"Now, for the first time, the 20 euro mark has been crossed by a club and we are no longer willing to sit back and find out what happens next. It is time to raise our voices, no matter what club it is."

Uersfeld, who pays 184 euro (£152) to watch Borussia's 17 home Bundesliga games as well as one European match, insists football supporters have more power than they might think.

"We are part of the game, part of the business, but people do not take us seriously," he said. "What happens if the fans don't show up? Can they be replaced by another audience?"

In the past, some English fans have been prepared to boycott the club that they support, notably the bands of supporters that formed FC United and AFC Wimbledon.

FC United was set up in 2005 in protest to how Manchester United had moved further away from its local supporters, culminating in the takeover of the club by American owner Malcolm Glazer.

AFC Wimbledon began its existence in 2002 to preserve the local club's history after a decision was taken to move the club from its original west London base to Milton Keynes with a new name of MK Dons.

"The Wimbledon Independent Supporters Association had a database of 1,500 members," said long-standing AFC Wimbledon supporter Laurence Lowne, who helped mobilise opposition to former Wimbledon owner Charles Koppel's plan to move north.

"We had lines of communication in play and were very active," added Lowne, who was part of a boycott of Wimbledon's home game with Rotherham in 2002 that saw just 849 fans attend the match - one of the lowest Football League crowds in history.

But it is telling that these supporters chose to set up alternative clubs rather than hang around - in the case of FC United - for the likes of the Glazer family to start listening to their concerns.

Match day income is around 38% of United's total revenues

"There is an anti-intellectual strain in English culture," said Dave Boyle, chief executive of Supporters Direct, which aims to create the conditions in which fans can secure influence ownership of clubs.

"Many fans aren't interested in taking collective action. For many, football is about getting away from the wife, kids and their working life.

"On the other side of the coin, there aren't that many enlightened chief executives. People like Ivan Gazidis at Arsenal are in the minority. Too many take the view: 'What's the worst that can happen if I don't take these fans seriously?'"

While some fans decamped to set up FC United, the Manchester United Supporters' Trust (Must) has been fighting a campaign to force the Glazer family to sell the Premier League club.

In the summer, Manchester United failed to sell out their season ticket allocation, selling 51,800, compared to its target of 54,000, but blogger and United season ticket holder Andersred, who has written extensively about the club's finances, believes boycotting Old Trafford matches would be more symbolic than practical.

"I'm sure David Gill et al would worry if the television showed banks of empty seats, it certainly takes away from the "allure" of United and Old Trafford," he said.

"The interesting time will come when United have a poor season.

"With unsold season tickets already, the time could come in future years when there are a significant number of unsold seats - perhaps in the aftermath of Sir Alex Ferguson's retirement if that leads to a dip in form."

Back at Anfield, James McKenna - who is a Liverpool fan and member of the supporter group Spirit of Shankly - burst out laughing when he heard how much Schalke were proposing to charge Dortmund fans even after a price increase from last season.

A Schalke season ticket for a seat behind the goal costs £292

In June the price of a Kop seat booked online rose to £680 with the main stand priced at £732 - a 7% increase.

This season McKenna, who helps run the Spirit of Shankly - one of the supporter groups unhappy about the way owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett are running the club - decided to give up his season ticket in protest at the Americans' continued presence at Anfield.

"I took the decision I didn't just want to support them financially," said McKenna.

"We have thought of boycotting them. But supporters think it's our football club and they don't want to be pushed out and lose their identity.

"I've made a decision to give up my season ticket, but it's difficult for others who have been given their tickets by their fathers.

"A boycott would have to be regular and sustained to make it work, but it probably would be successful. It sends a powerful message that they can no longer be depended on for our financial support.

"Having said that there is a lot of apathy. People just don't care and they just want to watch 90 minutes of football."

Sunday's match is not the first time this season that German fans have voiced their unhappiness as Schalke coach Felix Magath has found to his cost.

Prior to Magath's arrival the club and fans would routinely hold extensive discussions over proposed ticket price increases.

Magath has pursued a different management style, sacking the club's supporter liaison officer Rolf Rojek, who had been in the job for over 20 years, and dismissing fans' protests, saying they were a "small" group of supporters.

In 1986 a standing Kop season ticket cost £45

That prompted 3,000 Schalke fans to wear T-shirts emblazoned with the slogan "The Small Group" for the season opener at Hamburg.

Their action has forced Magath to back away from his confrontational managerial style and he spent time talking to supporters before he wrapped up the signing of Klaus-Jan Huntelaar from AC Milan.

But protests in Germany are not just confined to Dortmund and Schalke.

On 9 October supporters from 30 clubs under the umbrella of three nationwide supporter organisations are planning a demonstration in Berlin to "Save our fan culture".

For United and Liverpool fans unhappy at the way that the Glazers and Hicks and Gillett have been running their respective clubs, attempts to have a say in the boardroom have been vocal, colourful and have garnered plenty of column inches, but so far, have been largely futile.

Influencing the likes of United chief executive David Gill and his Anfield counterpart Christian Purslow has proved nigh-on impossible, mainly because dialogue between boardroom and the fans is practically non-existent.

McKenna says the Spirit of Shankly has met Purslow once but that was at the request of the Liverpool fan group, and when BBC Sport asked Liverpool to give examples of ways in which the club engaged with fans, they failed to provide any response.

"All the dialogue has been one way, with us going to Purslow," said McKenna.

Manchester United, on the other hand, provided a statement outlining the club's fans forum which meets three times a year to debate club policies and "reflects the varied sections of the club's fan base".

Both Must and Shareholder Liverpool FC, which is campaigning for fans to have part ownership in Liverpool, say that potential buyers are keen to allow fans a greater say in the way their clubs will be run.

But the new dawn of new ownership structure, which incorporates fans, remains some way off.

"One day we will have the keys to Liverpool - maybe not in my lifetime - but I genuinely believe it will happen," said McKenna.

Simon Chadwick, professor of sport business strategy and marketing at Coventry University, goes as far to suggest a link between German fans' desire for collective action and Germany's success in reaching the semi-finals in the 2010 World Cup.

606: DEBATE

I have been going to Anfield for 35 years, it's a part of my life, but am so fed up with what's going on with football in general, that the love has gone from the game

THE REDS ARE COMIN UP THE HILL BOYS

"The Germans have a sharp sense of democracy and of the rights of people to openly express their views," said Chadwick.

"Dortmund fans, rather than feeling embarrassed or that they should not express opposing or confrontational views, are likely to have taken the view that it is their entitlement to take this form of action.

"Interestingly too, despite German 'openness' and democracy, ultimately, German society operates on the basis of consensus rather than unilateral action.

"As a footnote to this, I don't think British people have the same notion of consensus or collective action that the Germans do.

"I guess, in many ways, what happened in the summer at the World Cup is a microcosm of the differences between Germany and England.

"The group, the team, is always more important than a series of individuals. Moreover, I don't think the British, as a society, have the same strongly defined sense or acceptance of direct action as the Germans."

Boyle also suggests that it's not just clubs that are guilty of non-engagement - the Football Association is equally unconcerned about listening to supporters' concerns.

"There are 10 million football fans in England and over 100 FA councillors, but there is only one FA councillor who represents fans' concerns, despite Lord Burns' recommendation that there should be three," he added.

"The FA is public property, yet fans are not allowed a voice. I've got more ability to influence the House of Lords than I have the FA."

[Bilo]

Just to illustrate the fact that fan power can bring about results.

Far more effective to vote with your feet than to complain on an internet forum that the big wigs won't read and wouldn't care about if they did, don't you think?

[flowwolf]

Boycotting what? Boycotting the team for not getting promotion?

Christ if we did that down the years we'd be playing in front of nobody all the time.

Just wait till next year that's what we will be doing all the time. :( :(

[The Padster]

I'd pay, just to call Neil Warnock a willy puller.

(null)

[purpleronnie]

German club fans set for boycott

By John Sinnott

Two historic matches take place in the industrial heartlands of England and Germany this Sunday that throw into focus just how little Premier League fans have been able to influence boardroom change.

Thousands of Liverpool supporters will make the trip to watch their team play Manchester United at Old Trafford, with large majorities of both sets of fans unhappy about the way their clubs have been run by their respective American owners.

Over in Germany, thousands of Borussia Dortmund fans are similarly unhappy - with the major difference that they will not be travelling to watch their team take on Schalke in the Bundesliga.

A boycott has been organised in protest against a hike in visitor ticket prices and 1,500 Dortmund fans have already returned their tickets. Many supporters have been unable to get refunds but still will not travel.

More than 300 different Dortmund supporter groups across Germany are involved in the boycott, which is designed to highlight unease at being asked to pay more than 22 euro (£19) for a standing ticket. Last season, Schalke were charging 13.50 euro for the same match, while Liverpool fans will have to fork out £51 for a ticket at Old Trafford.

One day we will have the keys to Liverpool - maybe not in my lifetime - but I genuinely believe it will happen

Spirit of Shankly's James McKenna

"This protest is not aimed towards Schalke but against the price hike which basically every club here in Germany is part of," Stephan Uersfeld, of the German fanzine Schwatzgelb, told BBC Sport.

"Now, for the first time, the 20 euro mark has been crossed by a club and we are no longer willing to sit back and find out what happens next. It is time to raise our voices, no matter what club it is."

Uersfeld, who pays 184 euro (£152) to watch Borussia's 17 home Bundesliga games as well as one European match, insists football supporters have more power than they might think.

"We are part of the game, part of the business, but people do not take us seriously," he said. "What happens if the fans don't show up? Can they be replaced by another audience?"

In the past, some English fans have been prepared to boycott the club that they support, notably the bands of supporters that formed FC United and AFC Wimbledon.

FC United was set up in 2005 in protest to how Manchester United had moved further away from its local supporters, culminating in the takeover of the club by American owner Malcolm Glazer.

AFC Wimbledon began its existence in 2002 to preserve the local club's history after a decision was taken to move the club from its original west London base to Milton Keynes with a new name of MK Dons.

"The Wimbledon Independent Supporters Association had a database of 1,500 members," said long-standing AFC Wimbledon supporter Laurence Lowne, who helped mobilise opposition to former Wimbledon owner Charles Koppel's plan to move north.

"We had lines of communication in play and were very active," added Lowne, who was part of a boycott of Wimbledon's home game with Rotherham in 2002 that saw just 849 fans attend the match - one of the lowest Football League crowds in history.

But it is telling that these supporters chose to set up alternative clubs rather than hang around - in the case of FC United - for the likes of the Glazer family to start listening to their concerns.

Match day income is around 38% of United's total revenues

"There is an anti-intellectual strain in English culture," said Dave Boyle, chief executive of Supporters Direct, which aims to create the conditions in which fans can secure influence ownership of clubs.

"Many fans aren't interested in taking collective action. For many, football is about getting away from the wife, kids and their working life.

"On the other side of the coin, there aren't that many enlightened chief executives. People like Ivan Gazidis at Arsenal are in the minority. Too many take the view: 'What's the worst that can happen if I don't take these fans seriously?'"

While some fans decamped to set up FC United, the Manchester United Supporters' Trust (Must) has been fighting a campaign to force the Glazer family to sell the Premier League club.

In the summer, Manchester United failed to sell out their season ticket allocation, selling 51,800, compared to its target of 54,000, but blogger and United season ticket holder Andersred, who has written extensively about the club's finances, believes boycotting Old Trafford matches would be more symbolic than practical.

"I'm sure David Gill et al would worry if the television showed banks of empty seats, it certainly takes away from the "allure" of United and Old Trafford," he said.

"The interesting time will come when United have a poor season.

"With unsold season tickets already, the time could come in future years when there are a significant number of unsold seats - perhaps in the aftermath of Sir Alex Ferguson's retirement if that leads to a dip in form."

Back at Anfield, James McKenna - who is a Liverpool fan and member of the supporter group Spirit of Shankly - burst out laughing when he heard how much Schalke were proposing to charge Dortmund fans even after a price increase from last season.

A Schalke season ticket for a seat behind the goal costs £292

In June the price of a Kop seat booked online rose to £680 with the main stand priced at £732 - a 7% increase.

This season McKenna, who helps run the Spirit of Shankly - one of the supporter groups unhappy about the way owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett are running the club - decided to give up his season ticket in protest at the Americans' continued presence at Anfield.

"I took the decision I didn't just want to support them financially," said McKenna.

"We have thought of boycotting them. But supporters think it's our football club and they don't want to be pushed out and lose their identity.

"I've made a decision to give up my season ticket, but it's difficult for others who have been given their tickets by their fathers.

"A boycott would have to be regular and sustained to make it work, but it probably would be successful. It sends a powerful message that they can no longer be depended on for our financial support.

"Having said that there is a lot of apathy. People just don't care and they just want to watch 90 minutes of football."

Sunday's match is not the first time this season that German fans have voiced their unhappiness as Schalke coach Felix Magath has found to his cost.

Prior to Magath's arrival the club and fans would routinely hold extensive discussions over proposed ticket price increases.

Magath has pursued a different management style, sacking the club's supporter liaison officer Rolf Rojek, who had been in the job for over 20 years, and dismissing fans' protests, saying they were a "small" group of supporters.

In 1986 a standing Kop season ticket cost £45

That prompted 3,000 Schalke fans to wear T-shirts emblazoned with the slogan "The Small Group" for the season opener at Hamburg.

Their action has forced Magath to back away from his confrontational managerial style and he spent time talking to supporters before he wrapped up the signing of Klaus-Jan Huntelaar from AC Milan.

But protests in Germany are not just confined to Dortmund and Schalke.

On 9 October supporters from 30 clubs under the umbrella of three nationwide supporter organisations are planning a demonstration in Berlin to "Save our fan culture".

For United and Liverpool fans unhappy at the way that the Glazers and Hicks and Gillett have been running their respective clubs, attempts to have a say in the boardroom have been vocal, colourful and have garnered plenty of column inches, but so far, have been largely futile.

Influencing the likes of United chief executive David Gill and his Anfield counterpart Christian Purslow has proved nigh-on impossible, mainly because dialogue between boardroom and the fans is practically non-existent.

McKenna says the Spirit of Shankly has met Purslow once but that was at the request of the Liverpool fan group, and when BBC Sport asked Liverpool to give examples of ways in which the club engaged with fans, they failed to provide any response.

"All the dialogue has been one way, with us going to Purslow," said McKenna.

Manchester United, on the other hand, provided a statement outlining the club's fans forum which meets three times a year to debate club policies and "reflects the varied sections of the club's fan base".

Both Must and Shareholder Liverpool FC, which is campaigning for fans to have part ownership in Liverpool, say that potential buyers are keen to allow fans a greater say in the way their clubs will be run.

But the new dawn of new ownership structure, which incorporates fans, remains some way off.

"One day we will have the keys to Liverpool - maybe not in my lifetime - but I genuinely believe it will happen," said McKenna.

Simon Chadwick, professor of sport business strategy and marketing at Coventry University, goes as far to suggest a link between German fans' desire for collective action and Germany's success in reaching the semi-finals in the 2010 World Cup.

606: DEBATE

I have been going to Anfield for 35 years, it's a part of my life, but am so fed up with what's going on with football in general, that the love has gone from the game

THE REDS ARE COMIN UP THE HILL BOYS

"The Germans have a sharp sense of democracy and of the rights of people to openly express their views," said Chadwick.

"Dortmund fans, rather than feeling embarrassed or that they should not express opposing or confrontational views, are likely to have taken the view that it is their entitlement to take this form of action.

"Interestingly too, despite German 'openness' and democracy, ultimately, German society operates on the basis of consensus rather than unilateral action.

"As a footnote to this, I don't think British people have the same notion of consensus or collective action that the Germans do.

"I guess, in many ways, what happened in the summer at the World Cup is a microcosm of the differences between Germany and England.

"The group, the team, is always more important than a series of individuals. Moreover, I don't think the British, as a society, have the same strongly defined sense or acceptance of direct action as the Germans."

Boyle also suggests that it's not just clubs that are guilty of non-engagement - the Football Association is equally unconcerned about listening to supporters' concerns.

"There are 10 million football fans in England and over 100 FA councillors, but there is only one FA councillor who represents fans' concerns, despite Lord Burns' recommendation that there should be three," he added.

"The FA is public property, yet fans are not allowed a voice. I've got more ability to influence the House of Lords than I have the FA."

Amazing, but unfortunately like I stated before english football fans are very much individual supporters its very different elsewhere, we will never have the same mentality...unfortunately.

[SemperEadem]

I am as loyal to Leicester as anyone but these prices take the mick, I'm not going to let father Christmas mug me off.

[L4EV]

Leeds aren't PL though, despite how much they think they are. They're a mediocre Championship team

But they still charge Premier League prices

[ousefox]

I can't understand why anybody would go to this with those prices- absolutely mad. It's just a friendly now and i would never pay £36 for a friendly against Leeds!

Would be one of the easiest games for me to get to, and i would have gone just to support the team like i did at Donny away last year but can simply not justfiy paying that much to watch a game that means nothing.

[Milton Keynes Fox]

Boycott? FFS people get a grip. How pathetic can our fans get! Its our team and we support them through whatever. Christ!

Because of the prices you idiot.

[Trav Le Bleu]

You see what happens when Bentleys Roof goes down? Those guys have to get their kicks somewhere.

EDIT - I got the impression that this was a protest against not reaching the play-offs. As a protest against the ridiculous cost of football, then

[Danny the Fox 95]

It'll look stupid because about half will boycott and we'll take 400 then everyone will say we have rubbish support when we don't. Very poor pricing but it's the last away day of the season and I'm just going for a laugh and to cheer on the lads like I have all season!

[davieG]

It'll look stupid because about half will boycott and we'll take 400 then everyone will say we have rubbish support when we don't. Very poor pricing but it's the last away day of the season and I'm just going for a laugh and to cheer on the lads like I have all season!

Who cares what people say about our support, I don't support LCFC to get praised for my support and certainly not by other team's fans.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Joke prices, me and the lads won't be going.

It'll look stupid because about half will boycott and we'll take 400 then everyone will say we have rubbish support when we don't. Very poor pricing but it's the last away day of the season and I'm just going for a laugh and to cheer on the lads like I have all season!

Or they'll praise us for taking a stand against Leeds ridiculous prices?

[Dan LCFC]

I'm certainly boycotting and I've said all year that I'm not going.

Call me a plastic or whatever you want, but what good reason is there to go? I'll start with the smaller reason and say it's a nothing game, the team have given us very little to shout about this season and that Millwall display made me seriously think if I can be arsed against Burnley/West Ham.

But however, with it being our last game, I'd probably have gone if it was reasonably priced. Last year our last away game of the season was Doncaster, initially priced at £27 for adults and whatever for concessions (can't remember), with it being a nothing game, they cut the price to £15 for adults and £1 for U16's, I think. I went to this as a result even though the fixture meant nothing.

At Leeds, you'll be paying the most you'll ever have paid for a match ticket for a general away game at this level. You'll be treated like an absolute cvnt even if you're behaving fine and following rules. I cannot for the life of me see why anyone who has been before would want to go back, paying an absolutely criminal price, being treated like a cvnt.

I'm boycotting it, and the less we take to this the better.

[Dan LCFC]

It's about the ticket prices that everybody has rightly condemned on the T&T threads.

Hate to bang on about it but this is what's wrong with the mentality of the football supporter in this country. We bitch, moan and kick up a right stink about pricing but when the opportunity to hit one of football's greediest men where it hurts presents itself we all shy away behind the veneer of loyal support.

The season's effectively over, the Leeds game will be a dead rubber and you'll be treated like the lowest form of vermin by a stewarding team who'd rather see a ten year old boy piss himself than inconvenience them by visiting the toilet. If ever there was a game that should have widespread support for a boycott, it's this one.

Pretty much took the words out my mouth.

I'm afraid this thread is very worrying to find most people are still unaware of what mugs they're being taken for.

The penny will drop one day.

[davieG]

Pretty much took the words out my mouth.

I'm afraid this thread is very worrying to find most people are still unaware of what mugs they're being taken for.

The penny will drop one day.

The £50 will drop one day!

[anotherharboroughfox]

I just find it strange how people jumped to the conclusion it was about the team, and it didn't spring to mind that it might be because of the ridiculously priced tickets that people seem too happy to pay for.

[Dan LCFC]

The £50 will drop one day!

So true.

It will happen. Whilst these people (I admire your loyalty but seriously) continue to put loyalty as the reason for going all the time, even when they're absolutely taking the piss, what will clubs do? They'll continue putting it up. They're cvnts like that and that's the sad truth, they'll milk every last penny they want, and whilst people still pay it, they will keep rising and where do you draw a line? Will you pay £38 next year? Or £40 the year after? Or £55 if we both went up?

£36 is far too much for a game in this level, absolutely disgusting.

I just find it strange how people jumped to the conclusion it was about the team, and it didn't spring to mind that it might be because of the ridiculously priced tickets that people seem too happy to pay for.

Aye I've said all along I'd seriously have to think about this even if we had something to play for.

[blueharmie]

£36 ? It's a nothing game. Players don't care. Nothing to play for. An idiot would pay £36 for this.

We have some right mugs for fans. Either that or you get paid too much.

[Milton Keynes Fox]

Why on EARTH would anyone pay £36 for a game with no significance?

You know the reason Ken Bates charges these prices? Because he knows some people will pay them, by paying them you're just emphasizing to him that he can get away with charging these ridiculous prices ESPECIALLY IN A RECESSION.

If you boycott the game like me, it will show him that we are not prepared to pay stupid prices to watch our football club play, it doesn't make anyone plastic if they don't want to go...infact i think it's the right thing to do.

[Petchy]

OH SHIT, WE LOST ITS THE END OF THE WORLD

EVERYBODY OUT

LETS GET NEW OWNERS AND A NEW MANAGER AND A NEW FIRST 11 AND WE'LL DEFINATELY GO UP EASY

THATS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE, RIGHT?

Actually, it would have made more sense to use Sven's picture as he did buy a new 11... Sousa still had Pearson's players and even used players we still had like DJ Campbell. Nice try though.

[Libertine Dream]

He wins either way. He either gets the money or there are no away fans at the ground, making it easier to police, cheaper to police and no support for the away team. Id sooner support my team than have an empty away end which Ken Bates also wants.

[Walker]

I'm with those who want to boycott this. But unfortunately, as mentioned somewhere on here, we'll always have that band of 500 who'll go no matter what. It's a shame really, as we'll continue to be mugged off at Leeds (which should/could be a really enjoyable away day) until the day Uncle Ken leaves.