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Ric Flair

Golf

By Ric Flair, in General Football and Sport

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Smashing-Pumpkin

Smashing-Pumpkin

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, skolfoxes said:

I'd have more respect for them, albeit still virtually zero, if they just admitted that they don't give a sh1t about being used as pawns is the Saudi's sports washing operation as long as the massive cheques clear. None of this 'I'm not a politician I'm a golfer' style crap we've had.

 

The arrogance that they didn't seem to think anyone was going to challenge them on this stuff beggars belief. 

 

McDowell's answer was the best, he managed to unintentionally and completely unironically give a near perfect description of sports washing when asked how he felt about the Saudi's human rights record, it was actually quite impressive.

To be fair though, if we are talking about someone like Talor Gooch who was referenced in the golf channel clip, then I think he genuinely just wants to make a good living under less pressure.

 

We have to be real about this, the PGA Tour is HARD. Its cut throat. Youve got 125 guys who will be playing next year (with full exempt status), the rest will be heading back to Korn Ferry finals. Theres no guarantee of getting back to the PGA Tour and even if they do, the Korn Ferry guys are not going to get into the WGC's, the invitationals, or the majors, so straight away their at a big disadvantage on the fedex cup.

 

I know Talor Gooch is already exempt for 2 years for winning at Sea Island, but in his position its dog eat dog. Hes got a chance to make a huge living for his family to avoid the possibility of returning to Korn Ferry and being broke.

 

The fact he wants to do this doesnt make him implicit in some sort of morally bankrupt sportswashing activity, to me he is a genuine example of someone using it to genuinely provide a good life.

 

It doesnt make every single person who goes down this road a saudi regime sympathiser, just as Newcastle United's players and fans arent.

 

 

Edited by Smashing-Pumpkin
  • Like 1
skolfoxes

skolfoxes

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Smashing-Pumpkin said:

To be fair though, if we are talking about someone like Talor Gooch who was referenced in the golf channel clip, then I think he genuinely just wants to make a good living under less pressure.

 

We have to be real about this, the PGA Tour is HARD. Its cut throat. Youve got 125 guys who will be playing next year, the rest will be heading back to Korn Ferry finals. Theres no guarantee of getting back to the PGA Tour and even if they do, the Korn Ferry guys are not going to get into the WGC's, the invitationals, or the majors, so straight away their at a big disadvantage on the fedex cup.

 

I know Talor Gooch is already exempt for 2 years for winning at Sea Island, but in his position its dog eat dog. Hes got a chance to make a huge living for his family to avoid the possibility of returning to Korn Ferry and being broke.

 

The fact he wants to do this doesnt make him implicit in some sort of morally bankrupt sportswashing activity, to me he is a genuine example of someone using it to genuinely provide a good life.

 

It doesnt make every single person who goes down this road a saudi regime sympathiser, just as Newcastle United's players and fans arent.

 

 

I accept it's not as black and white as I may have made out. 

 

Taylor Gooch is an interesting one, he is relatively young in golfing terms and whilst not one of the elite players he seems to have been on an upward trajectory the past couple of years. Looking at the PGA Tour website he's made around $9 million and I can't imagine he's bringing in a boat load in sponsorship money. So whilst that's still a hell of a lot of money, and he will have very very good life, I absolutely understand why it's very appealing to him. For guys like Poulter, Westwood, Mickleson or DJ, they have already made tens and tens of millions via the PGA/DP World Tours plus sponsorship, at what point have you got enough?

 

I agree with the bit in bold to an extent, I just think that if someone is willing to pay you way above market rate for your services, you have to at some point question their motivation for doing so, and I think it's fair game for people to ask the question. If players are willing to stand back, understand the reasons and still take the money then fair enough that their prerogative and it's going to provide them with a brilliant life, but I also think it's fair for others to question/criticise their moral compass in doing so.

 

The Newcastle fans/players point is interesting, and to be honest not one I had really considered. I suppose in football it has been going on for a long time in the cases of Man City, PSG etc that we have become desensitised to it, not that it makes it right. But that is the whole point of it!

 

I'll be honest, I just preferred it when football clubs were owned by the fans or local boy done good as opposed to Petrol States, Hedge Funds and Oligarchs, and when golfers played to win the trophies their heroes won before them, not 54 hole events where even last place gets over $100,000. 

Edited by skolfoxes
Smashing-Pumpkin

Smashing-Pumpkin

Posted
Posted

Im actually going to stick up for the saudi players a little bit here.

 

The "is there nowhere on earth you wouldnt play" line of questionning to people like Ian Poulter and Lee Westwood is absolutely shit.

 

If the journalists find it such an  issue, dont report on the tournament. Dont give it anymore oxygen. Many of those journalists have worked on absolute shit shows in their newspapers like Hillsborough, phone hacking, bare faced brexit lies and a host of other things.

 

Have these journalists questionned at all why the noble DP world tour continues to play the Qatar Masters? the HSBC Champions in China?

 

What about on the Ladies European Tour (LET) where they play the Aramco Team in Jeddah?

 

Why dont we ask this question to every single player in the massive fields these events will attract? or cant we be bothered because the prize fund is no bigger than the Scandanavian Masters so no one cares??

 

I dont think theres anything wrong with asking questions that are along the lines of this is about money, because it is. Are they mercenaries? yes. Would I prefer to see these guys playing the "real" tours? yes.

 

But the journalists can absolutely get in the bin.

Footballwipe

Footballwipe

Posted
Posted

Yes, because the real villains in this are the journalists :blink:

 

Look, we're in a capitalist free enterprise where people can choose who they take their money from. These players have chosen to do that. If I was Arlo White, and I was going from hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions per year, I'd probably do it to. I mean when I say probably, I definitely would. If someone doesn't have the passion, doesn't care about majors/Ryder cup, take the $150m and let people judge.

 

The reason it's a vast cacophony of noise for this particular tournament is that this is purely sportswashing. The event is not to grow golf, it's not to expand the game, it's to go "Oh look that Saudi golf tournament is good, they're a right bunch of sport entertainment providers." These golfers are nothing more than Saudi trophies to be paraded around. It's BRAND NEW and this is it's sole purpose. Sure, the World Cup is doing similar and that means some won't watch, but that tournament has a history and heritage (not a nice one at times) and Qatar are using it for sportswashing, but the WC is more than that. Golf tournaments and F1 races at dodgy countries are more than where they race.

 

It's far from a complex issue, and frankly had social media and forums been around during apartheid, I think we'd be horrified by the attitude of people reacting to "journalists" questions of sports people who chose to take part.

 

Someone said it earlier in the thread, but if these golfers came out and said "Yeah, I'm a Saudi patsy now but the money is more important to me than the judgement of others and access to the prestigious golf tournaments" then you go fair enough. It's when they start dodging the question, start trying to tell us this is for the good of the game that we go "okay then... what IS your limit" because if you come out and admit it's about money, we know you're pretty much limitless.

 

Journalists have a right to ask these questions, and we can judge them on their answer. To scald journalists is such a cheap way of letting the players off the hook and basically ensuring the Saudis get away with this hook, line and sinker. Sportswashing in action.

  • Like 2
Smashing-Pumpkin

Smashing-Pumpkin

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Footballwipe said:

Yes, because the real villains in this are the journalists :blink:

 

Look, we're in a capitalist free enterprise where people can choose who they take their money from. These players have chosen to do that. If I was Arlo White, and I was going from hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions per year, I'd probably do it to. I mean when I say probably, I definitely would. If someone doesn't have the passion, doesn't care about majors/Ryder cup, take the $150m and let people judge.

 

The reason it's a vast cacophony of noise for this particular tournament is that this is purely sportswashing. The event is not to grow golf, it's not to expand the game, it's to go "Oh look that Saudi golf tournament is good, they're a right bunch of sport entertainment providers." These golfers are nothing more than Saudi trophies to be paraded around. It's BRAND NEW and this is it's sole purpose. Sure, the World Cup is doing similar and that means some won't watch, but that tournament has a history and heritage (not a nice one at times) and Qatar are using it for sportswashing, but the WC is more than that. Golf tournaments and F1 races at dodgy countries are more than where they race.

 

It's far from a complex issue, and frankly had social media and forums been around during apartheid, I think we'd be horrified by the attitude of people reacting to "journalists" questions of sports people who chose to take part.

 

Someone said it earlier in the thread, but if these golfers came out and said "Yeah, I'm a Saudi patsy now but the money is more important to me than the judgement of others and access to the prestigious golf tournaments" then you go fair enough. It's when they start dodging the question, start trying to tell us this is for the good of the game that we go "okay then... what IS your limit" because if you come out and admit it's about money, we know you're pretty much limitless.

 

Journalists have a right to ask these questions, and we can judge them on their answer. To scald journalists is such a cheap way of letting the players off the hook and basically ensuring the Saudis get away with this hook, line and sinker. Sportswashing in action.

I feel if the players can still use exempt status to get into majors and WGC's and if saudi DOES carry world ranking points, then it makes sense for a lot of players to play.

 

Co-sanctioning has to be the way forward i would have thought.

 

Some of these players have helped grow the game too, so I agree whilst LIV wont help grow the game, the people within it have in their own ways and theyre at periods of their careers where it makes sense for them.

 

I dont need to know what Ian Poulters "limit" is thanks. Thats my opinion.

Smashing-Pumpkin

Smashing-Pumpkin

Posted
Posted

Ive been watching this a little bit this afternoon.

 

ANOTHER shit thing about the shotgun start is completely losing track of whats going on in terms of..... ok, someone is -2 or -3....do they have a par 5 to come? do they have a tough hole to come?

 

You just lose track of whats going on, you cant work out what hole everyones on.

 

I did say in an earlier post, a shotgun start was more reminiscent of a charity day in October than any kind of serious golf. Wonder if the halfway house is open for a cheese cob.

Izzy

Izzy

Posted
Posted (edited)

This is fvckin weird to watch :blink:

 

As a  golf traditionalist I'm really struggling with all these changes. 

 

Time will tell and I'll reserve judgment for now I suppose.

 

Not sure I'll ever get used to these team logos on the caddies bibs though.

 

Come on TEAM SMASH!

 

Edited by Izzy
kingfox

kingfox

Posted
Posted

Stuck Liv on for about five minutes.

 

The leaderboard pinging noise, the rattling noise of some balls going into holes, the basic overexcited commentary, the team names and logos.


The kind of shit I expect to see on a cheap golf PlayStation game.

 

Absolutely nothing game changing about it.

Izzy

Izzy

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, kingfox said:

Stuck Liv on for about five minutes.

 

The leaderboard pinging noise, the rattling noise of some balls going into holes, the basic overexcited commentary, the team names and logos.


The kind of shit I expect to see on a cheap golf PlayStation game.

 

Absolutely nothing game changing about it.

That's driving me around the fvcking bend :mad:

  • Like 1
kingfox

kingfox

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Izzy said:

That's driving me around the fvcking bend :mad:

Same, turned it off for that reason.

 

It’s basically live Golf with a cheap PlayStation game style layout.

  • Like 1
Izzy

Izzy

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, kingfox said:

Same, turned it off for that reason.

 

It’s basically live Golf with a cheap PlayStation game style layout.

I agree about the whole 'gaming' feel - maybe to appeal to a younger audience?

 

It all feels a bit like golf on speed to me (maybe that's the idea?) The commentators are trying way to hard and getting over excited about fvck all. The whole thing is giving me a headache.

 

I dunno, maybe it'll grow on me. I'll still reserve judgement for a while. (no adverts is a bonus though)

 

kingfox

kingfox

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I agree about the whole 'gaming' feel - maybe to appeal to a younger audience?

 

It all feels a bit like golf on speed to me (maybe that's the idea?) The commentators are trying way to hard and getting over excited about fvck all. The whole thing is giving me a headache.

 

I dunno, maybe it'll grow on me. I'll still reserve judgement for a while. (no adverts is a bonus though)

 

Like you mate, I’m a traditionalist.

 

I see absolutely nothing game changing about this, what’s so good about a shotgun start? I see people on Twitter saying how they like the quick nature of going from player to player, PGA tour coverage does the same, you just get slightly more breaks, that’s all. 
 

Is a shorter format and less golf better? Maybe for casuals who struggle to engage, but I wouldn’t class it as ground breaking and fresh. 
 

The gaming style layout just feels cheap, all that’s missing is some Mario Kart style music.

Smashing-Pumpkin

Smashing-Pumpkin

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, kingfox said:

Like you mate, I’m a traditionalist.

 

I see absolutely nothing game changing about this, what’s so good about a shotgun start? I see people on Twitter saying how they like the quick nature of going from player to player, PGA tour coverage does the same, you just get slightly more breaks, that’s all. 
 

Is a shorter format and less golf better? Maybe for casuals who struggle to engage, but I wouldn’t class it as ground breaking and fresh. 
 

The gaming style layout just feels cheap, all that’s missing is some Mario Kart style music.

Id say the majority of the people who get into golf get into it BECAUSE of its traditional formats.

 

Medal play is about as basic, AND challenging as it gets. 18 holes. Every shot counts. Add em up at the end.

 

Over 72 holes, thats a serious, serious test for the best in the world.

 

But its watching the best in the world that makes people (certainly did me) want to go out and play the game THEY are playing. To emulate what THEY are doing.

 

They occasionally innovate the game. Stuff like the mixed event in Scandanavia, thats quite unique and an interesting concept, tricky to get the course set up right. Theyve tried the shot clock masters for example too.

 

I know no one wants to see slooooooooooow play, (personally think slow play is exaggerated on TV and i can explain why) but no one wants to emulate the shot clock masters either at their club.

 

The sport is what it is, it doesnt NEED revamping.

 

New players come to the game because of what the sport is traditionally, not for the bells and whistles.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Smashing-Pumpkin

Smashing-Pumpkin

Posted
Posted

In a funny kind of way, if it was actually a LEAGUE, it might be a better product.

 

The matchplay format is one thats naturally fast paced and volatile, lots of action, rather than the grind of putting together a successful 54 or 72 hole score.

 

Then you actually could have a league table, fixtures etc. Just thinking in my head that could work. You could have two historical rivals head to head to win a point, 3 day event three fixtures per stop on tour....i could actually see SOME merit to that, in the way they used to play the old Dunhill World Cup at St Andrews.

 

The format as it is now is just basically a mess, other than being fast (and why is fast good anyway?) On final day for example, you want the ampitheatre of the crowd being around the last group on the banks....not half the fans being on the other side of the course not knowing whos winning.

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