suffolk fox Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 Wanted fans opinions before i pen a letter of complaint to peterborough council's health & safety department regarding the so called capacity of that ramshackle stand they call Moyes End. It was obvious they had oversold tickets and it was a miracle nobody got hurt or injured? Asking fans to move forward in order more could get in was a recipie for disaster. I saw numerous kids and parents looking worried with all the pushing and shoving going on people falling over and when the smoke flare went off I had visions of Bradford all over again. Peterborough should be ashamed, that stand never holds the so called capacity they say it does. Thank god no one as far as I am aware was badly injured but it is just a matter of time? This isn' t sour grapes either cos we lost Peterborough especially at London Rd are our bogey team On the way to the ground walked past a bookies in the window sign said boro to beat Leicester 2 1 tenner wins you 130 quid, couldn't resist knowing our record their so placed the bet. I don't know how Peterborough get away with safety standards within grounds cos this is the worst ground I have been too. It hasn't changed at all since I went as a lad in the sixties! It should be pulled down and rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 But what's more important a few people dying or a good atmosphere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanSP Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 I think a thread called 'oversold away end' would have been more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottthefox Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 I thought it was fantastic to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964FOX Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 I don't think they oversold so you would be right to question the capacity they give the stand in line with modern safety standards. I would also question the management of the stewards by the safety officer considering they were aware the stand was at capacity. And a word about betting on Leicester to lose.....bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Super Sunday Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 But what's more important a few people dying or a good atmosphere? To be honest a few deaths of our fellow fans is worth it for the celebration when Marshall scored. They probably weren't proper fans anyway. Double edit: See some clearly haven't got the sarcasm of the attitude of those in the other thread who seem to dismiss anyone who had a problem at yesterdays game with 'well it was well good when Marshall scored' Clearly there was a huge problem with people getting in and some were packed in. There were problems in some areas and it was fine in others so all I'd ask is for people to respect those who really didn't feel comfortable at the game rather than think it was utterly fantastic for 90 mins in that terrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthefox Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 To be honest a few deaths of our fellow fans is worth it for the celebration when Marshall scored. They probably weren't proper fans anyway. Mate, thats just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 Yeah people would have stayed in the stand and died rather than climb over a two foot barrier at the front. Just like Hillborough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny the Fox 95 Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 To be honest a few deaths of our fellow fans is worth it for the celebration when Marshall scored. They probably weren't proper fans anyway. You're hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pSinatra Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 I started going down Filbert Street in the late 70's as a nipper. It was the 'danger' of it that was part of the attraction. Dodging in & out of the crowds outside the ground, as not to get trampled. Standing in the kop. Most of the time I couldn't see the game, but loved the surges & the noise.......the other adults making sure I was safe & didn't fall. At the end of the match, my Dad used to tell me to hold his hand & don't let go - then we would head towards the exit. I used to shit myself & more often than not, my feet hardly touched the ground until we reached the outside of the ground. I loved it!! I wasn't at London Road yesterday & don't know how unsafe it was? Too many new stadiums are sterile & have an atmosphere to suit. My favourite grounds are places like Goodison & Craven Cottage.......places that remind you how great football grounds can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964FOX Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 Yeah people would have stayed in the stand and died rather than climb over a two foot barrier at the front. Just like Hillborough. You are right of course, no cages any more to cause problems with clearing fans onto the pitch but where was the management from the safety experts who knew the the stand would be full. There are people employed at Peterborough, as there are at every club, who are safety experts who clearly did not manage their staff sufficiently and I can be pretty sure they probably had the same amount of stewards on a they do for. 2000 crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 You are right of course, no cages any more to cause problems with clearing fans onto the pitch but where was the management from the safety experts who knew the the stand would be full. There are people employed at Peterborough, as there are at every club, who are safety experts who clearly did not manage their staff sufficiently and I can be pretty sure they probably had the same amount of stewards on a they do for. 2000 crowd. Peterboro should be brought to task regarding it, no doubt about that. No one was ever going to die though yesterday or ever will on a terrace like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964FOX Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 Peterboro should be brought to task regarding it, no doubt about that. No one was ever going to die though yesterday or ever will on a terrace like that. I agree unless it was a freak accident, in fact safer when tightly packed as it's harder to fall to the floor a there's no space to do so. The concern for me is that today's society is so used to being protected people don't us common sense and take action to protect themselves if yo know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Fox Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 The difference is at hillsbourgh there was a giant fence that crushed people this clearly wasn't the case here and as far as I am aware whilst it wasn't great no one was hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 I was in the sitting area yesterday as I had to change tickets after hurting my back and you could see there was plenty of room on the right (facing at the pitch). If I remember correctly the main entrances to this stand are all on the back left and this is part of the problem because people congregate where they come into the ground. Instead of having 10s of stewards staring intimidatingly at the fans at the front of the stand some of them should be in the stand near the entrance directing fans over to the right. Their stewards are just a bunch of intimidating, trouble seeking people that care not a jot for the actual welfare of the fans. Football must be the only sport/entertainment/crowd gathering scenario where the stewards main role of facilitating on behalf of the fans is totally ignored and the order of the day is put on an aggressive face and make it as hard as you can for the paying customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 I didn't see any problems, the only real danger was of people falling over which is always the case at any game I go to. I didn't think a crush was really possible, there weren't enough people in there for that to happen, although the terrace probably wasn't a good place for young children or the elderly to be. Any teenager of adult would have been fine and might have got a bruised knee if they were unlucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964FOX Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 The stewards have radios, the fact that the management in the control box or one of the senior stewards on the ground did not send stewards to the emptier areas and start moving people across is astonishing. Clearly as DavieG suggests they are too concerned about the enforcement part of their job. Considering the tiny about of trouble ST games nowadays enforcement should be a similar tiny part of their job/ training sadly this is not th case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suffolk fox Posted 10 February 2013 Author Share Posted 10 February 2013 Having been to a inquest regarding the Hillsborough disaster the fences then were a contributing factor. However, the large volume of fans tightly packed together with more coming into the stand from the rear, people could not move anywhere and many died literally where they stood side by side. There are reports from fans who survived they were half way up the terrace and the chap stood next to them was dead. I wanted to canvass opinions because I believed asking fans to move forward may have been a wrong move when the stand was full. It is clear that some people where they were, were ok but where i was it was tight. On a sidenote the wall may have only been 2ft high but if you were so tightly packed in, you wouldn't have been able to move at all. As i made reference earlier thankfully no one was seriously hurt. I thank some of the posts regarding the mention of the stewards as I believe too they did not help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Year Of The Fox Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 You need to make it clear the rail seating initiative is a different thing entirely, perfectly safe and impossible for accidents to happen. If you dont know enough about rail seating then don't bother, as once the letter geta into the public domain it won't take anything for the mps to jump on the anti standing bandwagon and will willingly confuse the type of standing at posh with rail seating to get more people against the idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesmilner Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 be honest ? it isnt safe , death might be a touch strong but health and safety is an issue and not negotiable . kids were scared and thats not fair . to ask the crowd to move forward was pathetic and very dangerous , what a whole that place is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 Having been to a inquest regarding the Hillsborough disaster the fences then were a contributing factor. However, the large volume of fans tightly packed together with more coming into the stand from the rear, people could not move anywhere and many died literally where they stood side by side. There are reports from fans who survived they were half way up the terrace and the chap stood next to them was dead. I wanted to canvass opinions because I believed asking fans to move forward may have been a wrong move when the stand was full. It is clear that some people where they were, were ok but where i was it was tight. On a sidenote the wall may have only been 2ft high but if you were so tightly packed in, you wouldn't have been able to move at all. As i made reference earlier thankfully no one was seriously hurt. I thank some of the posts regarding the mention of the stewards as I believe too they did not help. Assuming the capacity allowed is acceptable and has been proved to be so over a period of time the answer was not to ask fans to move forward but to move over to the right where there was plenty of room. There were plenty of stewards directly in front on this area but as I said above their main task was to look intimidating and aggressively at the fans and pointing to the ones that looked potential trouble makers. As a study of human nature relating to football stewards their stewards behaviour was more interesting than a lot of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilo Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 I did ask questions of a steward at around twelve when I arrived at London Road, I'd parked nearby and had asked to use the toilet. While making small talk, I asked how many we'd sold. When he said 5,000 I did have misgivings. I remember what it was like in the League One season with 4,500 there, so an extra 500 fans seemed bonkers. He assured me that they'd be able to handle it, that Leeds had brought similar numbers and that we'd be perfectly safe. However, I did have visions of us ending up on the pitch out of sheer necessity or them having to transfer people to the seated areas where there were a number of empty seats. I wouldn't have wanted to take young children onto that terrace yesterday, but saying that people could have been killed yesterday is scare mongering. If we say that the safe capacity of the stand is around 4,000 and it had 5,000 on it, that's 25% over capacity. That is obviously shameful and questions should be asked of the person who made the decision to allow that many onto the terrace, but the central pens on Leppings Lane in 1989 were between 300% and 400% over capacity according to reports and were surrounded by steel fences. A bit of perspective might be in order. Had it gotten to genuinely life-endangering levels yesterday; fans would have ended up on the running track and pitch, a luxury that wasn't available at Hillsborough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir_bob Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 Assuming the capacity allowed is acceptable and has been proved to be so over a period of time the answer was not to ask fans to move forward but to move over to the right where there was plenty of room. I think this is the most pertinent issue. As a Posh fan I can't comment on the stewards at Moy's End but there was clearly enough room at the sides and it was not oversold according to capacity. The Moy's terrace was sold out last time we played Newcastle and there were no problems. The stewards are responsible for ensuring the safety of the fans and should have positioned more at the sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernys_boys Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 i guess you could put peterborough at fault for selling to many tickets, but i for one didnt have a problem with the terraces. i think if the result went our way not so many people would be complaining right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky Posted 10 February 2013 Share Posted 10 February 2013 It was more uncomfortable than unsafe, especially around the centre entrance. There were no surges during the game, just very little room to move, but most people were well-behaved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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