Teachers Strike

[fleckneymike]

But presumably you knew all this before taking the job on?

 

Why bitch about it now?

 

There's not enough money in the pot to keep paying your cushy pensions, why can't you see that?

 

If my company has a bad year I don't get a bonus or a payrise, my pension has just been changed for the worst but I have to accept that times are hard for everyone and sacrifices have to be made, I can always look for another job.

 

Why do you think teachers are so special that the real world economics don't apply to you?

 

It is precisely because 'real world economics' apply to me that I have withdrawn my labour.

 

This will probably infuriate you even more but we are currently paid for 195 days (190 teaching) and a total of 1265 hours. Last week, in the non real world' I worked an additional 20 hours unpaid, the week before I worked 35 additional hours. I could have walked out of the theatre early leaving the students unsupervised, cancelled the football match, left the books unmarked, not planned every lesson, cancelled meetings with parents, not liaised with external agencies because the 'real world economics' meant I was providing my time for free but, because I'm a soppy sod, I didn't.

[Bellend Sebastian]

What do you do now then ? Test mattresses for slumberland ?

 

You cheeky bastard.

 

It's Silent Night

 

It is precisely because 'real world economics' apply to me that I have withdrawn my labour.

 

This will probably infuriate you even more but we are currently paid for 195 days (190 teaching) and a total of 1265 hours. Last week, in the non real world' I worked an additional 20 hours unpaid, the week before I worked 35 additional hours. I could have walked out of the theatre early leaving the students unsupervised, cancelled the football match, left the books unmarked, not planned every lesson, cancelled meetings with parents, not liaised with external agencies because the 'real world economics' meant I was providing my time for free but, because I'm a soppy sod, I didn't.

 

No you didn't, you left the school with the pupils at 3.15 pm and went straight to an expensive coffee shop, where you looked on your Macbook Pro for the foreign holidays you will spend half of your year on, before going home to watch box sets on a flat screen television. 

 

This must be the case because if it isn't, it suggests that most of the stuff said about teachers by people that know nothing about it, including large portions of the print media, is complete bollocks, based on a vague perception that someone might be better off than you in some way and therefore must be relentlessly attacked.  I'm sorry but I'm not having that

[Guest MattP]

"Real world" = Spending all day on Foxestalk while supposedly managing gambling web sites

"Not real world" = Trying to educate 30 children, some of whom will have behavioural problems or be causing mayhem      

 

As you doubtless know, the SWP turn up at every rally with their placards, trying to exploit situations for their own "revolutionary" ends....the SWP are wankers, not teachers

 

As a responsible Tory who doesn't want public money wasted, I trust that you've reported these sponging idlers?

Before I went self-employed, I always noticed that the most unprofessional idlers were usually non-union members who idled on the job, but took the terms and conditions negotiated by the unions.  

 

Can you engage in a conversation with me without bringing my work into it anymore? Should I feel guilty for making a few quid on the back of a few betting websites, the tax I pay on earnings from them contributes the wages this guys in the 'real world' are getting. Does my argument become more moral to you if I get a "proper job" in an office while I do it?

 

Glad you agree with me on the SWP, I had you down as a flag waver for them. I'm impressed.

 

No, I'd never grass my mates up. The bond with people you have known and trusted all your life goes a million times deeper than any affiliation to a political party. maybe that's why I can't bring myself to like Ed Miliband.

[Guesty]

I worked in a school once and the problem I find is there are a lot of really shit teachers who do have a cushy life and others who do care and work lots of extra hours. I knew one teacher who never gave homework, was in just before the kids (normally hungover) and left as soon as the kids left, but, I also knew another teacher who was paid the same (roughly 22/23 grand) who worked from 6 till 5 then did all the marking at home (which took another hour minimum).

 

When the ones that work hard strike or complain they're dumped in with the shit ones. 

 

It should be harder to become a teacher but the powers that be know if they made it too hard then no-one would apply; because the job is not as cushy as most people think. And like someone else in this thread said once they're there then pretty much the only way you can move them on is to give them glowing references because of the stupid way the system is set-up; and if they know you're not happy with them and want rid they just go on the easily exploitable sick if they're workshy.

 

I would also say the holiday argument is not all that applicable because most teachers wouldn't care if you took your kid out for a week to get a cheap holiday (most understand as long as it's a rarity) because in the scheme of things it won't make much difference. It's the government that clamp down on that, make the regulations and force teachers to reinforce it - probably so it can be used against them in cases like this.

[ADK]

I worked in a school once and the problem I find is there are a lot of really shit teachers who do have a cushy life and others who do care and work lots of extra hours. I knew one teacher who never gave homework, was in just before the kids (normally hungover) and left as soon as the kids left, but, I also knew another teacher who was paid the same (roughly 22/23 grand) who worked from 6 till 5 then did all the marking at home (which took another hour minimum).

 

When the ones that work hard strike or complain they're dumped in with the shit ones. 

 

It should be harder to become a teacher but the powers that be know if they made it too hard then no-one would apply; because the job is not as cushy as most people think. And like someone else in this thread said once they're there then pretty much the only way you can move them on is to give them glowing references because of the stupid way the system is set-up; and if they know you're not happy with them and want rid they just go on the easily exploitable sick if they're workshy.

 

I would also say the holiday argument is not all that applicable because most teachers wouldn't care if you took your kid out for a week to get a cheap holiday (most understand as long as it's a rarity) because in the scheme of things it won't make much difference. It's the government that clamp down on that, make the regulations and force teachers to reinforce it - probably so it can be used against them in cases like this.

 

I totally agree.

 

It was obvious to me that there is a great disparity in the quality of teachers and yet it isn't necessarily reflected in teacher pay. Teachers who put in the extra hours deserve their money and probably more whilst the slackers shouldn't be even in a job.

[Strokes]

You're all welcome to come and join us in the cushy world of teaching.

I tried there was nobody there.

[Strokes]

Are you seriously saying that teaching is not a real job, then you clearly have no clue, all the teachers I know do a lot more work than most office jobs and have a hell of a lot more responsibility and pressure, it is pathetic to dismiss it as not a real job, when it is one of the most important in taking this country forwards. Yes they get good "holidays", but what you don't see is the amount time spent during those holidays preparing for the following term.

I don't agree with the strike, but then I also think Gove is a dick and this is a culmination of many factors and not just one, but they have their right to do so.

No it is a real job, the point I was trying to make was most have never been out of a school enviroment. Some appear to me to quite clearly not live in the real world and this is what I believe is the cause.

[Alf Bentley]

Do me a favour - look at how many people are out there looking for Jobs? Especially in the industry sector I'm in the competition was fierce. We have taken on 7 graduates this summer, guess how many applications we had? 300 

 

So it is nothing to do with hard work or looking for a different job at all. You have got completely the wrong end of the stick probably due to your lack of education - do you even watch the news or open your eyes to the lack of employment in this country since the recession?

 

Don't worry, Tommy, I've had plenty of education, watch the news and am aware of the effects of the recession. I just don't think that means that people should lay down and accept whatever bad treatment is handed out, whether it is the teachers or you.

 

As it happens, I'm not very well informed about the teachers' demands, but the gist of comments by you and others was that they shouldn't be striking, regardless of whether they had a case. Where would we be now if people in the past hadn't stood up for their rights and those of future generations? I also know several teachers (friends, in-laws, daughter's teachers), none of whom are idlers not living in the real world....though I'm sure some teachers are like that, like some in every occupation.

 

You also suggested that your employer would sack you the minute you went on strike - if so, and if you are a valued employee, that's disgraceful - management by fear.

 

Mind you, employees in the private sector have a cushy number. They're all idlers who don't live in the real world. Real world economics dictates that they should have their pay and pensions slashed, so that millionnaires can get a tax cut (joke!). 

[The God Emperor]

striking is a way for workers to negotiate with their employers, everyone (barring the police and armed forces) should be allowed to strike if they believe they are being treated unfairly.

but its slightly different in the public sector. we have had a long series of governments (labour and torie) who's economic policy seems to be 'create a debt fueled bubble in time for the election and let the next generation pay for the good times' so if you go into the public sector you've got to expect deals to be changed due to this.

[Alf Bentley]

Can you engage in a conversation with me without bringing my work into it anymore? Should I feel guilty for making a few quid on the back of a few betting websites, the tax I pay on earnings from them contributes the wages this guys in the 'real world' are getting. Does my argument become more moral to you if I get a "proper job" in an office while I do it?

 

Glad you agree with me on the SWP, I had you down as a flag waver for them. I'm impressed.

 

No, I'd never grass my mates up. The bond with people you have known and trusted all your life goes a million times deeper than any affiliation to a political party. maybe that's why I can't bring myself to like Ed Miliband.

 

Point taken re. your work - I'll try to avoid referring to it in future, though I see nothing to feel guilty about, anyway. Some of the definitions of "real world" flying around this topic do make me laugh, though (not that my work is any more "real world" than yours - but teaching is more real world than the jobs held by most of us on here).

 

No, in all seriousness, I wouldn't grass people up either, not even enemies unless they were doing something truly nasty and there was no alternative. I've no time for the SWP or other hard left factions, who seek to exploit people's good intentions to further their own misguided agenda. Jury's out on Miliband, for me, though I'm not interested in liking him, just working out whether he'd be any good....some good signs, but still needs to up his game. Must work...

[BoneDog]

Most have never lived in the real world, or had a real job.

Path - school - advanced education - university - back to school.

They are dilusional and childish, are they really good role models for our kids?

 

Have you ever read any John Taylor Gatto books? He outlines the best way to educate children in great detail and explains what is wrong with the schooling system along with it's real intentions.

 

Incredible guy who produced outstanding results when he was a teacher.

[BoneDog]

Agree with all of this. I had an argument on Facebook with my best mates missis who's a teacher. She was on about this performance related pay etc. Many construction trades are on price work which is based on performance related pay. Many plumbing firms also deduct wages off one plumber if another has to go and cure a leak. Again, performance related pay. Our firm hasn't had a payrise in line with inflation for nearly a decade.

It's time they got in the real world

 

Performance related pay with teachers is to make sure none of them stray from the set curricula, because when they do they can achieve greater things with the kids they are teaching. The set curricula and school system nowadays is designed to stifle childrens intellectual growth and extend immaturity, and the powers that be are damned if they are to allow teachers to start teaching properly.

 

Standardised testing and PRP are tools to make schooling 'teacher-proof'.

[Guesty]

Performance related pay with teachers is to make sure none of them stray from the set curricula, because when they do they can achieve greater things with the kids they are teaching. The set curricula and school system nowadays is designed to stifle childrens intellectual growth and extend immaturity, and the powers that be are damned if they are to allow teachers to start teaching properly.

 

Standardised testing and PRP are tools to make schooling 'teacher-proof'.

 

I'm not sure how you can have performance related pay. It can't be on grades achieved really because schools from less privileged areas will have worse overall scores, which wouldn't be fair on teachers who choose to work in more difficult conditions. So, you could do it on how much each individual child improves over the time they have them.

 

But then how do you measure that? The teacher can't be the one assessing because obviously some will lie; so who assess it? You can't really give kids a big test every year just to determine teachers pay because it's unfair on the kids and if the kids know it and don't like the teacher they will purposely perform badly. And if you do test them what happens if there are reasons why some kids perform badly on that day and consign a teacher to poor pay for a year.

 

It could be measured by senior management but from my time working with them I know arse-kissing and brown-nosing is rife - which is also why some schools are shit because the wrong people get promotions and inturn want their arse-kissed irrespective of quality of teacher.  

 

I just can't see how teachers could have across the board performance related pay because it's too easy to manipulate.

[Guest MattP]

Point taken re. your work - I'll try to avoid referring to it in future, though I see nothing to feel guilty about, anyway. Some of the definitions of "real world" flying around this topic do make me laugh, though (not that my work is any more "real world" than yours - but teaching is more real world than the jobs held by most of us on here).

 

No, in all seriousness, I wouldn't grass people up either, not even enemies unless they were doing something truly nasty and there was no alternative. I've no time for the SWP or other hard left factions, who seek to exploit people's good intentions to further their own misguided agenda. Jury's out on Miliband, for me, though I'm not interested in liking him, just working out whether he'd be any good....some good signs, but still needs to up his game. Must work...

 

No worries Alf, I did get the feeling you had some sort of moral viewpoint on me for what I did. I'm been knocking up CV's anyway today as I'm going to be right back in 'real world' of work quite soon.

 

Agree on the second paragraph, unfortunately politics has become just as much of an image/celebrity type game as everything else, the days of a person looking like John Major or James Callaghan being elected are long gone, from what I have read today a lot of the speakers at the conferences over the last two weeks spent more time in make up than working on their speeches.

[ADK]

I thought David Davis would have made a great PM, sadly he wasn't considered sexy enough compared to the blairite Cameron.

[Guest MattP]

I thought David Davis would have made a great PM, sadly he wasn't considered sexy enough compared to the blairite Cameron.

 

I voted for him when IDS won it.

 

Proper Tory.

 

 

On the original points the turnouts for the strikers are pathetic, 300 people is the biggest I find in the Midlands?

[Webbo]

I thought David Davis would have made a great PM, sadly he wasn't considered sexy enough compared to the blairite Cameron.

Me too.

[lcfc81]

I have been a teacher for 8 years and had 3 different pension regimes, I have experienced numerous national curriculum changes and a number of serious changes to gcse specifications. The reason I strike is because education is a political play thing for the government, causing disruption and turbulence. New drives only ever last the length of time the politician who holds the post is in power.

Take gove for example, trying to radicalise everything (e.g massive change of direction) has no experience of education within his cv, all his changes are based on his political time scale (2015) regardless of how long they should really take, and guess what by the time anything goes wrong or doesn't work he won't be there!

An example of this are the current re-sit system in England, a child sitting a wjec course in Wales can resit modules, in England a pupil sitting the same paper with wjec can't resit modules and has to do all their exams in the final session BUT gets the same certificate from the exam board with their grade in (which they have less chance of getting). Fair? (The system is riddled with Ill thought out things like this now).

http://www.wjec.co.uk/index.php?subject=58&level=7 (look halfway down it says the welsh schools can sit either specification and England only 2014 version)

http://www.wjec.co.uk/uploads/publications/16126.pdf

(Look at the spec, modules can be taken whenever the center chooses and re-sat once)

I am not going to get started about the pitfalls of goves ideas to end gcse's for a new system.

In terms of pension teachers want to see the account for the teacher pension scheme to see if it is unaffordable, however the politicians won't publish this! Why?

In summary I want politicians (especially a government that had no mandate for change as part of a coalition) to think of education with a long term view, with logical, sustainable, efficient development. I don't want this disruptive, short term approach that currently presides and does no one any justice.

In terms of pension I really don't mind fair changes, however at some point I would like to plan my future. So a clear, transparent discussion about a long term (not the next 5 years but 25 years) solution, with all the information available to all.

One last thing, I often feel sorry for this year guinepigs of gove's political ideology, who will be assessed (only in England) on new rules with a much smaller chance of success. How I hope (but doubt) that future employers have the equivalent of a halfords guide as to which exams, in which country, in which year, mean what exactly (in the hope they are not disadvantaged).

[lcfc81]

Another thing that always surprises me when these debates arise is that people talk about how there working conditions are acceptable(e.g I have no pension etc).

My feeling is there needs to be more general working unions to stand up for everyone against some of the larger companies that turn large profits. For example how can zero hour contracts be acceptable (just my opinion)?

Working unions are a voice piece for working people are they not?

[Matt]

It's their career choice.

[lcfc81]

Quoted instead of edited!

[fleckneymike]

It's their career choice.

 Yes it is.

 

Come join us.

[leicsmac]

It's their career choice.

 

Which entitles them to be angry about it when people with no knowledge or experience of the system mess with it and by extension mess with the kids education in the name of political point-scoring.

[Parafox]

No it is a real job, the point I was trying to make was most have never been out of a school enviroment. Some appear to me to quite clearly not live in the real world and this is what I believe is the cause.

 

Oh do me a favour! Really?

 

Where do you think they "live" then? Cloud cuckoo land? Do you think they don't suffer the effects of a repressive government like the rest of us?

[lcfc81]

It's their career choice.

I agree,

However is it our childrens choice which education system they grow up in?

Is it fair medalling politicians with no mandate make such a turbulent convoluted system?

There needs to be an end to the short term, self serving approach of elite politicians that constrain our education system.