Racism at Doncaster?

[Trumpet]

Arguing about what is offensive and the different levels and history behind one form of discrimination compared to another is a load of bollocks. If someone is offended by something someone says, what was said was offensive.

I've got a mate with ginger hair and i've seen him kick off loads of times when people take the piss out of him. Also have black and asian friends as well as being half cast myself and have got into loads of scrapes in the past over it.

People often say, 'you shouldnt be so sensitive', 'sticks and stones' 'rise above it' etc etc. But why should I? Why should anyone? To me, there isnt a person on this earth that doesnt know that calling someone a black bastard could end up with getting a smack in the mouth.

If you cant control yourself to the extent that you just blurt out any kind of shit like that you shouldnt leave your house as your time is over.

Society today has no place for you.

Racist!

 

 

 

[notnow john]

Obesity is a choice. Race, sexuality and gender isn't.

Not that I'm condoning being rude to the overweight.

It's not a choice I'm big boned!

[Guesty]

And in which century did these events happen? 

 

My point being, say in 500 hundred years time and racism is completely extinct, will it still be a sensitive subject as it is today? No. Of course not.

 

Any kind of discrimination is concerning, but as a whole, in modern society I reckon racism is top of the discrimination list - not the colour of a persons hair.

 

Does that mean in 500 years if someone calls someone something racist it doesn't matter as much? It might still offend, hurt, upset someone just as much as it does today but since society as a whole no longer deems it as much of a problem then it doesn't matter as much and they shouldn't be as upset.

 

From reading this thread it seems as if discrimination is some sort of competition where people get to go I'm more offended than you so I win. It's all equally wrong - but there are different levels to discrimination - i.e, calling someone a name is different to beating or killing them. But I'm not sure that's what people are saying. 

 

When it comes to discrimination I'm more bothered how the person/people who've been the target of the discrimination feel - not society as a whole, or people being offended on other people's behalf's.

 

If some kid gets called ginger and for whatever reason kills himself, then calling him ginger is a big problem (I know it's unlikely and hyperbolic, but maybe the kid has other problems and this is the final straw; it has happened - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5312394/Schoolboy-bullied-over-ginger-hair-hanged-himself.html). If some disabled or special needs kid comes home crying because he's been called spag or a disabled is that any worse than some kid coming home crying because someone called them a black ****? Even a fat kid; maybe they do eat too much but I'm sure calling them fat can to some be just as upsetting to them as a kid being called a black ****.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is discrimination isn't a competition and there's no need for a list on who has more right to be offended. 

 

Maybe a certain subject of discrimination has more relevance to a person and is more important to them personally, but I wouldn't belittle anyone else's suffering by going your tears/feelings don't matter as much as mine/theirs.  

[Bettsj2]

And you've appointed yourself as the arbiter of that decision have you? Don't claim to speak on behalf of "society".

I am interested in your opening logic because I am actually offended by what you've said in this post; your condoning of violence for tasteless jibes offends me. Does that make what you've said "offensive"? If it does, do you still feel the need to lend any credence to the concept of offensiveness at all? If it doesn't, are you willing to adapt your definition of offensiveness accordingly?

Needless to say, I don't care about being offended. When somebody is wrong, it is by the free exchange of ideas that they are demonstrated to be wrong. What good is bullying them into silence going to do?

Your argument that began "there isn't a person on this earth..." is appalling. The same argument can be and often is used by genuinely hateful people in countries where homosexuality is illegal, for example, who might say "Well everybody knows if you're outwardly gay here you'll get a smack in the mouth". While the man in this scenario clearly does not have the burden of being part of a heavily oppressed and maligned minority as gay people do, it should at least make it obvious why you can't use the probability of violence occurring as an argument against him saying what he said. On that logic, there are plenty of unspeakable atrocities that occur all over the world that are justified simply because the victim knew what they were bringing upon themselves.

I didnt condone violence once, just said that it happens as a result of people opening their mouths to say remarks that they themselves know will cause offense.

My argument of 'their isnt a person on earth' still stands. If you know someone is gay and call them a 'fvcking faggot' you know that will offend them on the grounds if sexuality. If you call a black guy a 'black ****' you know it will offend them on grounds of race etc.

I dont think there is a place in society for any kind of discrimination and I hope my original post made that clear. If you are gay in a country where homosexuality is illegal, it is the countries law that is offensive and not the individuals sexuality.

To say it again, any kind of prejudice in the world today is ancient fvcking history and shouldnt be tolerated and if some idiot at a football match surrounded by thousands cant stop himself from saying 'black ****', I maintain, should stay at home.

[Trumpet]

Does that mean in 500 years if someone calls someone something racist it doesn't matter as much? It might still offend, hurt, upset someone just as much as it does today but since society as a whole no longer deems it as much of a problem then it doesn't matter as much and they shouldn't be as upset.

 

From reading this thread it seems as if discrimination is some sort of competition where people get to go I'm more offended than you so I win. It's all equally wrong - but there are different levels to discrimination - i.e, calling someone a name is different to beating or killing them. But I'm not sure that's what people are saying. 

 

When it comes to discrimination I'm more bothered how the person/people who've been the target of the discrimination feel - not society as a whole, or people being offended on other people's behalf's.

 

If some kid gets called ginger and for whatever reason kills himself, then calling him ginger is a big problem (I know it's unlikely and hyperbolic, but maybe the kid has other problems and this is the final straw; it has happened - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5312394/Schoolboy-bullied-over-ginger-hair-hanged-himself.html). If some disabled or special needs kid comes home crying because he's been called spag or a disabled is that any worse than some kid coming home crying because someone called them a black ****? Even a fat kid; maybe they do eat too much but I'm sure calling them fat can to some be just as upsetting to them as a kid being called a black ****.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is discrimination isn't a competition and there's no need for a list on who has more right to be offended. 

 

Maybe a certain subject of discrimination has more relevance to a person and is more important to them personally, but I wouldn't belittle anyone else's suffering by going your tears/feelings don't matter as much as mine/theirs.  

I only read that sentence. I'm sure you raised some valid points which i'd agree with, as I don't condemn racism, violence, discrimination etc. 

 

But I said hypothetically "say in 500 hundred years time and racism is completely extinct". Unfortunately, it won't happen as the guy who decided to shout such remarks yesterday will no doubt reproduce and the hate will be handed down a generation.

 

It was a bit uneasy reading that earlier on in the thread somebody said something along the lines of "we may sometimes think of racist remarks in our heads but not to blurt the racist remarks out". I've never thought of a player to be more of a c*nt for timewasting or feining injury to be more or less of a c*nt due to skin colour or ethnicity.

[Guest MarshallForEngland]

I didnt condone violence once, just said that it happens as a result of people opening their mouths to say remarks that they themselves know will cause offense.

My argument of 'their isnt a person on earth' still stands. If you know someone is gay and call them a 'fvcking faggot' you know that will offend them on the grounds if sexuality. If you call a black guy a 'black ****' you know it will offend them on grounds of race etc.

I dont think there is a place in society for any kind of discrimination and I hope my original post made that clear. If you are gay in a country where homosexuality is illegal, it is the countries law that is offensive and not the individuals sexuality.

To say it again, any kind of prejudice in the world today is ancient fvcking history and shouldnt be tolerated and if some idiot at a football match surrounded by thousands cant stop himself from saying 'black ****', I maintain, should stay at home.

 

You are literally arguing against yourself. Your own definition legitimises discrimination as long as it is done in response to something "offensive". And in countries where homosexuality is illegal, it is a person's sexuality that is deemed to be "offensive". I am not a relativist and I don't think you are either, but your argument so far necessarily implies otherwise. The inhabitants of some Eastern European countries (Russia, for example) find homosexuality offensive. In some Middle-Eastern Republics, significant proportions of the populace find female liberation and sexuality offensive. Others find specific books or the very idea of literature offensive. If offence is afforded the degree of credence that you are offering to it, lots of people who really don't deserve our sympathy can use it to defend really awful ideas. There are excellent reasons not to insult somebody, not to deliberately upset somebody, and not to make generalisations about people based on irrelevant factors, but something being offensive is not one of them.

[Zingari]

I fancy Frankie Dettori to do well. 

[Sykes999]

You all need to put your tampons in.

[Danno]

That's disgusting. They should have at least stabbed him in the neck.

[DennisNedry]

Yes you can, people don't genuinely believe ginger people are inferior, (this is ignoring the already made argument about the years of slavery and indiscriminate killing) people still today think that black people are inferior. 

 

Now we have made a lot of progress but we are still not there yet, we are still not yet at the point where black has no other connotations and is solely an adjective that describes skin colour, but until it stops having racist connotations using terms like black cvnt will be considered racist, even if the person that used it isn't a racist.

 

The difference with ginger hair, or lanky is that it has no other negative meaning attached to it, it is just an observation, they are just adjectives.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but why can't black be used just as an adjective?

[Russell sprout]

Chris birchall,a white player for Trinidadian and tabaogo get referred to as white boy,but that's ok,eminem gets called white boy,that's ok,snoop dog calls himself a nigger,that's ok cuz it's black folk saying it,and we are an accepting race when it comes to abuse of ourselves,yet a call someone a nigger,or refer to a work colleague as black boy,am a racist,it's all double standards in my opinion

[Russell sprout]

Oh,also having watched muzzy izzet on the box last Friday,didn't he say in training he was referred to as Turk,glad hd had a spence of humour and didn't get all pc and claim he was victim of racism,then again he's white so wud av got laughed at,wonder what wud happen if wes Morgan got referred to as bob Marley( Jamaican connections) then we wud all be racist cuz it's interpreted as mocking the colour of his skin,society's a joke

[The Year Of The Fox]

one of my mates works on the roads and this Pakistani guy joined the gang.now this now mate of his introduced himself on the first day and said" just call me shoe bomber"my mate couldn't believe he said that and felt uncomfortable understandably .One bloke had his collar felt for shouting it across the street until the guy stepped in.what I'm trying to say is this guy called himself this,but to 99.9% of the population this is racism?Should this guy have not understood how this might look to others before giving himself a nickname that is obviously offensive to most and really offensive to Asians.most people would just call him by his proper name I would have thought.Slightly different to yours I know.

I think that's brilliant. People lose their sense of humour sometimes and its good when stuff like this happens.

[Ash79]

Some of the comparables between being 'Gingerist' and 'Racist' aired on this topic are terrifying... Last I checked being of the strawberry blonde persuasion never led to you being oppressed, stopped you getting a job, meant you/your family/your children are abused and spit at in the street as a matter of course throughout history...

The moron spouting this at the Doncaster game is obviously a complete arse but giving him a kicking didn't justify the means... That said I'm not sure how I would have reacted has it been aimed at one of my mates...

Just as a slight aside would it help if I said I'm not 'gingerist' I have copper topped friends.

[GingerrrFox]

Some of the comparables between being 'Gingerist' and 'Racist' aired on this topic are terrifying... Last I checked being of the strawberry blonde persuasion never led to you being oppressed, stopped you getting a job, meant you/your family/your children are abused and spit at in the street as a matter of course throughout history...

The moron spouting this at the Doncaster game is obviously a complete arse but giving him a kicking didn't justify the means... That said I'm not sure how I would have reacted has it been aimed at one of my mates...

Just as a slight aside would it help if I said I'm not 'gingerist' I have copper topped friends.

You want to do your history mate. Not necessarily in this country but in many countries around Europe red haired people have been treated very harshly, even to the most ridiculous things like in Italy at 1 point in history it was illegal to marry a red haired person. It's all bollocks that the colour of your skin is a worse thing to be discriminated about in comparison to hair colour. There's no difference.

However people need to stop being so sensitive and just man the **** up a bit. I mean come on.

[The Year Of The Fox]

You want to do your history mate. Not necessarily in this country but in many countries around Europe red haired people have been treated very harshly, even to the most ridiculous things like in Italy at 1 point in history it was illegal to marry a red haired person. It's all bollocks that the colour of your skin is a worse thing to be discriminated about in comparison to hair colour. There's no difference.

However people need to stop being so sensitive and just man the **** up a bit. I mean come on.

If you took into account every piece of history that has occurred all around the world you'd just not be able to say anything to anyone without fear of reprisals.

[Kitchandro]

Some of the comparables between being 'Gingerist' and 'Racist' aired on this topic are terrifying... Last I checked being of the strawberry blonde persuasion never led to you being oppressed, stopped you getting a job, meant you/your family/your children are abused and spit at in the street as a matter of course throughout history...

The moron spouting this at the Doncaster game is obviously a complete arse but giving him a kicking didn't justify the means... That said I'm not sure how I would have reacted has it been aimed at one of my mates...

Just as a slight aside would it help if I said I'm not 'gingerist' I have copper topped friends.

 

Well if you read the comment above you might.

 

It's pretty irrelevant either way now isn't it? Black people are actually prospering nowadays. What with all their terrible rap music being lapped up by the masses, especially the younger the generation. A lot of black footballers fill the Premier League and are idolized. They don't have it rough in this country.

 

It's also naivety to think something like that can't slip out when you're angry. He was probably pissed and very annoyed (much like a lot of fans would have been I know) and I'm sure he just wanted to offend the bloke on the other team. That doesn't mean he's a racist, just that he was using racist terminology in a poorly thought out attempt to get back at someone.

 

Should it have been condemned? Yes. But if you condone violent retribution for something like that you're opening a huge can of worms, setting a precedent, slippery slope, etc. Where do you draw the line at verbal insults? Certain people might shrug racial abuse off but get offended by different things. Do you condone it every time someone might be offended? 

 

I'm not saying I would never react in a violent way to being insulted (though if the insult wasn't directed at me I can't see why I'd be that angry) but it shouldn't be an act applauded by everyone just because it's racism. There's a lot of double standards involved in this kind of thing. 

 

As for 'I hope he gets hit by a bus'

 

All rational thought seems to disappear for some people as soon as racism is involved. 

[Ash79]

Well if you read the comment above you might.

It's pretty irrelevant either way now isn't it? Black people are actually prospering nowadays. What with all their terrible rap music being lapped up by the masses, especially the younger the generation. A lot of black footballers fill the Premier League and are idolized. They don't have it rough in this country.

It's also naivety to think something like that can't slip out when you're angry. He was probably pissed and very annoyed (much like a lot of fans would have been I know) and I'm sure he just wanted to offend the bloke on the other team. That doesn't mean he's a racist, just that he was using racist terminology in a poorly thought out attempt to get back at someone.

Should it have been condemned? Yes. But if you condone violent retribution for something like that you're opening a huge can of worms, setting a precedent, slippery slope, etc. Where do you draw the line at verbal insults? Certain people might shrug racial abuse off but get offended by different things. Do you condone it every time someone might be offended?

I'm not saying I would never react in a violent way to being insulted (though if the insult wasn't directed at me I can't see why I'd be that angry) but it shouldn't be an act applauded by everyone just because it's racism. There's a lot of double standards involved in this kind of thing.

As for 'I hope he gets hit by a bus'

All rational thought seems to disappear for some people as soon as racism is involved.

Oddly enough I'd missed the abuse of our Italian red headed brothers in the Middle Ages so I stand corrected... That said my point still stands albeit I will now prefix with 'in living memory'

[Guest Bilo]

Well if you read the comment above you might.

 

It's pretty irrelevant either way now isn't it? Black people are actually prospering nowadays. What with all their terrible rap music being lapped up by the masses, especially the younger the generation. A lot of black footballers fill the Premier League and are idolized. They don't have it rough in this country.

 

It's also naivety to think something like that can't slip out when you're angry. He was probably pissed and very annoyed (much like a lot of fans would have been I know) and I'm sure he just wanted to offend the bloke on the other team. That doesn't mean he's a racist, just that he was using racist terminology in a poorly thought out attempt to get back at someone.

 

Should it have been condemned? Yes. But if you condone violent retribution for something like that you're opening a huge can of worms, setting a precedent, slippery slope, etc. Where do you draw the line at verbal insults? Certain people might shrug racial abuse off but get offended by different things. Do you condone it every time someone might be offended? 

 

I'm not saying I would never react in a violent way to being insulted (though if the insult wasn't directed at me I can't see why I'd be that angry) but it shouldn't be an act applauded by everyone just because it's racism. There's a lot of double standards involved in this kind of thing. 

 

As for 'I hope he gets hit by a bus'

 

All rational thought seems to disappear for some people as soon as racism is involved. 

 

I hope you're joking.

 

It's better than it was 30-40 years ago, but we're still very far from equality of opportunity in this country. 

 

Not sure this thread is the place for this discussion, but suggesting that black people in Britain have it all their way is remarkably naive.

[broughtonblue]

Obesity is a choice. Race, sexuality and gender isn't.

Not that I'm condoning being rude to the yoverweight.

How is obesity a choice?

A close friend of ours eats a vegetarian diet, doesn't drink or smoke, and exercises 3 times a week but Is still classed as overweight!

You really have no idea, she suffers terribly behind closed doors and given her age her parents are worried about her, it's people like you that cause this anxiety!

Tw@t

[Kitchandro]

I hope you're joking.

 

It's better than it was 30-40 years ago, but we're still very far from equality of opportunity in this country. 

 

Not sure this thread is the place for this discussion, but suggesting that black people in Britain have it all their way is remarkably naive.

 

I'm not seeing much evidence for what you're saying.

 

There's plenty of evidence to suggest they're doing fine. Like I say, it's not like we couldn't name many many hugely successful black people in this day and age is it?

 

I'm sure you can pick out a few isolated incidents where racism has stopped someone getting a job but I've never once encountered anything like that in real life nor has there been even a hint that it's an issue in anything I've experienced. Nor have I heard anyone I know or have met complain about it with any conviction let alone concrete evidence.

[broughtonblue]

Reading this thread it seems that people are looking for things to be offended by, even if it's not aimed at them. Perhaps we should look through our dictionary and delete any words that causes the sensitive anxiety. Black, ginger, fat, brown, bald, lanky etc.

So I refer to the gospel of our language, the concise Oxford English Dictionary, oh shit, is English racist?

We are all doomed!

[5waller5]

Arguing about what is offensive and the different levels and history behind one form of discrimination compared to another is a load of bollocks. If someone is offended by something someone says, what was said was offensive.

I've got a mate with ginger hair and i've seen him kick off loads of times when people take the piss out of him. Also have black and asian friends as well as being half cast myself and have got into loads of scrapes in the past over it.

People often say, 'you shouldnt be so sensitive', 'sticks and stones' 'rise above it' etc etc. But why should I? Why should anyone? To me, there isnt a person on this earth that doesnt know that calling someone a black bastard could end up with getting a smack in the mouth.

If you cant control yourself to the extent that you just blurt out any kind of shit like that you shouldnt leave your house as your time is over.

Society today has no place for you.

 

This is the difficulty with the PC world (as in politically correct not the sister store of Currys (As in the electrical store not the Indian food)).

 

I thought that "half cast" was now deemed to be a racist way to say of "mixed race" or "mulatto"???? 

[Voll Blau]

I'm not seeing much evidence for what you're saying.

 

There's plenty of evidence to suggest they're doing fine. Like I say, it's not like we couldn't name many many hugely successful black people in this day and age is it?

 

I'm sure you can pick out a few isolated incidents where racism has stopped someone getting a job but I've never once encountered anything like that in real life nor has there been even a hint that it's an issue in anything I've experienced. Nor have I heard anyone I know or have met complain about it with any conviction let alone concrete evidence.

 

Sounds like you spend a lot of time in Brixton, Handsworth, Moss Side, St Annes etc.

[BoneDog]

Where's the voice of reason DangerousTiger, when you need him?