Muslims allow to REFUSE to sell Pork and Alcohol in M&S Stores

[Finnaldo]

Think you will find a lot of Sikhs wont touch beef because the cow is sacred. I just gave a few examples. You could come up with an endless list of people who could refuse to sell something because of what they believe in. Or shall we take it to the next level and refuse to work sundays because im christian and its a holy day. I would get my arse kicked.

 

Sikhs have no food regulations whatsoever. My Sikh mate eats the lot, Sikhs can't be excommunicated for eating meat.

 

Christians are not required to work Sunday, it isn't a sin. But here's an article to consider:

 

 http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christians.have.a.right.not.to.work.on.sunday.court.decides/34941.htm

 

 

 

Christians have a right not to work on Sunday, court decides

Published 05 December 2013  |  Michael Trimmer

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Celestina Mba has never worked on a Sunday

The Court of Appeal in London has today legally recognised the right of Christians to observe Sunday as a day of rest.

The court was ruling on the case of Celestina Mba, a 38-year-old care worker from Merton, south west London, was forced to leave her job when she refused to work on Sunday for religious reasons.

An employment tribunal had previously argued that because not all Christians observe Sunday as a day of rest, it could not be considered a "core component" of the Christian faith, despite it being the fourth of the Ten Commandments listed in Exodus chapter 20.

However, the Court of Appeal today rejected this notion, arguing that Sunday observance is an important part of the worship and practices of many millions of Christians, and cannot therefore be simply dismissed.

Employers have a responsibility to be conscientious and to work to find a balance between their business needs and an employee's religious obligations, the court judged.

Had this judgement gone differently, Christians who objected to working on Sundays in the future could have found themselves without a legal defence.

Andrea Minichiello Williams, barrister and director of the Christian Legal Centre, said: "At last the courts are beginning to demonstrate greater understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

"Christian identity extends beyond private belief into daily life. We pray that the tide is turning.

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"Many Christians will now be able to argue that their employer must respect their rights of Sabbath worship"

Ms Mba resigned from her job at a children's home run by Merton Council in 2009 after being pressured to work on Sundays.

The initial employment tribunal found that as a 'committed Christian' she had made it clear that she was unable to work Sunday shifts because of her beliefs.

Although the Council initially respected this decision, two years later they approached her requesting that the arrangement be altered. From 2009 onwards, despite knowing she would refuse, Ms Mba's employers ordered her to work on Sundays.

Describing the situation, Ms Mba said: "They were trying to break my faith and see if I really believed in the Lord's Day. Merton disrespected my Christian faith. I said to the Court that the Council would not treat other faiths like they treat Christians. It was like giving pork to a Muslim every meal-time and then disciplining them for not eating it.

"If they really needed someone to work on a Sunday, they should have recruited that person and I would have been glad to leave. I had offered to take unpopular shifts and work anti-socials in order to protect Sundays."

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• Celestina Mba on her Sunday working case

The Court of Appeal decided it was wrong of the employment tribunals to have judged against Ms Mba on the basis of whether other Christians were observing Sundays as a day of rest.

Lord Justice Maurice Kay said: "I am satisfied that there was an error of law in the decision of the [employment tribunal] and that it was repeated in the judgment of the [employment appeals tribunal]."

Although future rights of Christians to refuse to work on Sunday have now been protected, the Court of Appeal's judgement was not retroactive, and therefore did not force Merton Council to provide Ms Mba with her job back.

The Appeals court was unwilling to reconsider the findings of the initial employment tribunal, or to order a new hearing to apply the correct tests to the case.

Lord Justice Maurice Kay said "after the most anxious consideration", he had come to the conclusion that the decision of the employment tribunal to uphold her dismissal was "proportionate" based on the law as it stood that time.

Ms Mba's supporters have found this aspect frustrating, with Ms Williams saying: "We believe if the Court of Appeal had been prepared to consider the facts according to the correct test, Celestina would have won. The onus should be on the employer to reasonably accommodate their employee."

She added: "[Ms Mba] loved her job and she has paid a high price for her Christian faith."

 

[Salieri]

True.

 

Could argue health reasons for not eating Pork though.

But you could argue that for eating any food that is not good for your health, surely?

[Kitchandro]

Pork - Murder of innocent animals.

Alcohol - Severe health risks.

 

Insane reasons?

 

Yep.

 

Sorry Mark, I think you're a good poster but your post just there is exactly the kind of Muslim-apologist crap that people get fed up with.

 

You know very well that there is no good reason to have a moral objection against pork (why pork but not all meat anyway? obviously not about killing animals is it) or alcohol (hardly a severe health risk if drunk normally like it is by a large percentage of the population, do you or any of your family drink?).

 

It's just bullshit, total bullshit.

True.

 

Could argue health reasons for not eating Pork though.

 

But that's not their reasons.

[lavrentis]

There is nothing pretty that happens inside an abattoir but Halal is an unnecessary act where the animal cannot be stunned before the throat is slit. 

[Larry_LCFC]

It's M&S' decision and maybe their legislations of their staff employment are different to where you work?

 

I've worked in retail for most of my life too - I really don't think I'd get sacked if I refused to sell any of our products containing alcohol (I'm not Muslim, but hypothetically). 

You would get a warning, and then another warning and then you would get disciplined. The thing that grinds my gears is, muslims are always up in arms that they are being singled out and picked on. In reality, they single themselves out by demanding their own rules. There is no reason in the world why they should be treated differently to anyone else in a workplace environment. When you sign a contract of employment, you accept the role youre given. M+S wont have introduced this off their own backs randomly, they have clearly had an ear-bashing from muslim staff members.

[StanSP]

Their religion must mean a lot to them then if they will sacrifice one of their sacred morals for dosh, makes no sense

 

It does make sense if you take in to account that to live in this life you have to earn money. And the most logical way of doing that is to get a job. 

[Rincewind]

But if you eat other meats that arguments don't stack up.

I don't believe the reason is in defense of animals. pork goes off quickly in hot countries and so it is done for helth reasons but it has been incorporated into their religeon. People in acient time would follow religious rules rather than H&S.

[ADK]

Daft if true.

 

I wouldn't shop at M&S anyway. Just sells processed crap for posh people.

 

Net result is canny employers will refuse work to anyone with a Muslim sounding name regardless of their beliefs.

 

Can anyone who knows a lot about Islam confirm if there is even a basis for them objecting?

[lavrentis]

It does make sense if you take in to account that to live in this life you have to earn money. And the most logical way of doing that is to get a job. 

 

Surely it would be off limits to them though, such as working in a bar? I understand people need money but I don't understand the logic behind it

[StanSP]

By the way, Muslims don't eat pork because it comes from pigs - which is seen as impure and dirty.

 

The murder of innocent animals isn't really the reason, which is why they can eat other meats if it is 'halal' (killed humanely, if there's such a thing).

[Mark_w]

 http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christians.have.a.right.not.to.work.on.sunday.court.decides/34941.htm

 

Ah it's PC gone mad, this highlights how ridiculous Christians are, send them back to Israel.

[lavrentis]

By the way, Muslims don't eat pork because it comes from pigs - which is seen as impure and dirty.

 

The murder of innocent animals isn't really the reason, which is why they can eat other meats if it is 'halal' (killed humanely, if there's such a thing).

 

 

There is nothing pretty that happens inside an abattoir but Halal is an unnecessary act where the animal cannot be stunned before the throat is slit. 

 

[Larry_LCFC]

Sikhs have no food regulations whatsoever. My Sikh mate eats the lot, Sikhs can't be excommunicated for eating meat.

 

Christians are not required to work Sunday, it isn't a sin. But here's an article to consider:

 

 http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christians.have.a.right.not.to.work.on.sunday.court.decides/34941.htm

Equally I know a fair few sikhs who wont eat any cow product. Its not an "official sikh belief", but they choose to follow it as part of their religion. If I had said to my employer I dont want to work Sundays when they interviewed me because i'm religious, they probably wouldn't have employed me. Therefore I just suck it in and get on with it, because I need to work to pay the bills. Im not going to kick up a fuss and demand my own rules, whats the point? Why cant muslims just do the same?

[Kitchandro]

Ah it's PC gone mad, this highlights how ridiculous Christians are, send them back to Israel.

 

Too right.

[StanSP]

You would get a warning, and then another warning and then you would get disciplined. The thing that grinds my gears is, muslims are always up in arms that they are being singled out and picked on. In reality, they single themselves out by demanding their own rules. There is no reason in the world why they should be treated differently to anyone else in a workplace environment. When you sign a contract of employment, you accept the role youre given. M+S wont have introduced this off their own backs randomly, they have clearly had an ear-bashing from muslim staff members.

 

I agree with most of that. It's annoying when some demand their own rules when the current rules have sufficed til now. But I don't think the majority of Muslims would really care (hence why I quoted Kitchandro when he thought all Muslims were ridiculous). Just the other day I bought some alcohol in a large well-known retailer and was served by a Muslim who didn't bat an eyelid about it. 

 

I know M&S won't have introduced it from the start, but perhaps they don't really mind this being the case - and again it's why I emphasise that such a big deal shouldn't be made out of this scenario in isolation. It's M&S' decision to introduce this rule now and I'm sure they would have undertaken some research in to it before making it official. 

[Finnaldo]

Equally I know a fair few sikhs who wont eat any cow product. Its not an "official sikh belief", but they choose to follow it as part of their religion. If I had said to my employer I dont want to work Sundays when they interviewed me because i'm religious, they probably wouldn't have employed me. Therefore I just suck it in and get on with it, because I need to work to pay the bills.

 

Did you read the article? A woman successfully appealed to not work on Sundays.

 

 

 

However, the Court of Appeal today rejected this notion, arguing that Sunday observance is an important part of the worship and practices of many millions of Christians, and cannot therefore be simply dismissed.

[Mark_w]

You know very well that there is no good reason to have a moral objection against pork (why pork but not all meat anyway? obviously not about killing animals is it) or alcohol (hardly a severe health risk if drunk normally like it is by a large percentage of the population, do you or any of your family drink?).

 

It's just bullshit, total bullshit.

 

But that's not their reasons.

 

Sorry, thought you were saying that there is no reasonable explanation for not eating pork or drinking alcohol.

 

Still, there's some ridiculous stuff in every religious text, if Muslims don't want to eat or serve pork or alcohol that's not really hurting anyone is it?

And if you have a problem with the policy then it's M&S you have a problem with.

 

I just don't see how you can claim that this shows Muslims are 'ridiculous'. I wouldn't be comfortable selling meat, does that make me 'ridiculous'? If it was Christians not willing to sell something (I don't know enough about the bible to bring up an example but I'm certain one exists), would you say that all Christians are ridiculous?

[Rincewind]

whe Sunday shopping there were a lot of protests now it is accepted without a second thought. There may be some that object but I doubt they take jobs that involve working on sundays.

[Larry_LCFC]

Did you read the article? A woman successfully appealed to not work on Sundays.

But then I would be just as bad. Inconveniencing everyone else just for the sake of being awkward. I accept retail is unsociable and needs me to work weekends, including sundays. I signed up for it. Muslims should accept working in a food shop will involve touching SEALED PACKETS of pork. They werent forced to work there.

[ADK]

To be honest it is a bit ridiculous to get a job on a till if you are "uncomfortable" selling common food and drink products.

 

What next?

 

"Muslim pig farm worker wins right to stay at home on full pay"

[Samilktray]

I stopped eating pork when I thought about how dirty it was.

[MooseBreath]

Damn Muslim swine and their religious hogwash. If it wasn't for the followers of that pig-headed Mohammed, the whole race issue thing would be cured by now.

[fleckneymike]

Are people really getting their knickers in a twist over this.

 

Something like 5% of the population is Muslim, the chances of them a) working in M&S B) working on the tills and C) refusing to serve you are almost infinitesimally small.

[Finnaldo]

But then I would be just as bad. Inconveniencing everyone else just for the sake of being awkward. I accept retail is unsociable and needs me to work weekends, including sundays. I signed up for it. Muslims should accept working in a food shop will involve touching SEALED PACKETS of pork. They werent forced to work there.

But this is a democratic country, and you have freedom of religion, which caters for ALL religions. Just because you follow a set of religious commandments you shouldn't be forced to find a different job, and one person who has a job instead of leeching off benefits because they couldn't find an alternate is worth a 2 minute wait, isn't it?

[Mark_w]

But then I would be just as bad. Inconveniencing everyone else just for the sake of being awkward. I accept retail is unsociable and needs me to work weekends, including sundays. I signed up for it. Muslims should accept working in a food shop will involve touching SEALED PACKETS of pork. They werent forced to work there.

 

Begs the question why are you getting so worked up over the Muslim/Pork/Alcohol issue but not over the Christians/Sunday issue?

 

That Christian woman signed up for a job that requires her to work Sunday but refused. She's just as 'bad'.