leicsmac Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 And not before time either. Isn't it sad that we chose to ostracise a man who was one of the greatest minds of his generation, a large part of cracking the Enigma code and so saving thousands of lives and was also one of the fathers of the computer - just because he happened to prefer relationships with other men? Still, at least that has now been remedied. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisNedry Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Didn't Gordon Brown pardon/apologise for this when he was PM? Wrong as the law was then, it was the law at that time so there was no wrongdoing by the authorities. He did technically break the law. Anyhow, the pardoning seems pointless now he's been dead for years, although perhaps he should be commemorated somehow, like on one of the new plastic bank notes. Clearly a brilliant mind who deserves remembering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 I'm sure he'll be very happy to hear it. I just don't get these apologies/pardons for what people did both the 'victim' and the 'perpetrators'. I guess people need to salve some unearned guilt for the Country's past. Many, many people were treated apallingly in the past but are unknown and forgotten. I certainly don't feel guilty and have nothing to apologise for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zingari Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 I'm sure he'll be very happy to hear it. I just don't get these apologies/pardons for what people did both the 'victim' and the 'perpetrators'. I guess people need to salve some unearned guilt for the Country's past. Many, many people were treated apallingly in the past but are unknown and forgotten. I certainly don't feel guilty and have nothing to apologise for. I see what you mean, but for me it draws attention to the fact that we are all subject to some ridiculous beliefs of our generation. Hard as it is to imagine now , future generations will look on what we now accept as the norm and what we accept as the truth with equal incredulity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Excuse me, its all a bit puzzling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 I see what you mean, but for me it draws attention to the fact that we are all subject to some ridiculous beliefs of our generation. Hard as it is to imagine now , future generations will look on what we now accept as the norm and what we accept as the truth with equal incredulity. Apologising and pardoning doesn't change the past and I don't think its needed to show that things have changed. Wherr does it stop as I said there are millions of examples of bad treatment meted out by governments and the elite on the ordinary everyday person where are their apologies. Much better that these apologists concentrated on the now where there are still many examples of wrong doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 24 December 2013 Author Share Posted 24 December 2013 Apologising and pardoning doesn't change the past and I don't think its needed to show that things have changed. Wherr does it stop as I said there are millions of examples of bad treatment meted out by governments and the elite on the ordinary everyday person where are their apologies. Much better that these apologists concentrated on the now where there are still many examples of wrong doing. But it does have an effect on how such things are viewed in the present and future. While I agree with your second paragraph entirely, surely at least some good work correcting the past or helping out in the present is better than none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 I'm sure he'll be very happy to hear it. I just don't get these apologies/pardons for what people did both the 'victim' and the 'perpetrators'. I guess people need to salve some unearned guilt for the Country's past. Many, many people were treated apallingly in the past but are unknown and forgotten. I certainly don't feel guilty and have nothing to apologise for. This pardon seems to send out a strange message. IF it is appropriate to issue such pardons and to apologise for legitimate legal judgments in the past (a big "if"), surely everyone who suffered due to the laws of the past should be pardoned? This isn't just a hypothetical argument. There are presumably hundreds of older men still living now who were punished for having gay sex as young men. This pardon seems to say "we're sorry about punishing people due to the values of the past, but only if they've achieved great things in life". Turing deserves great acclaim for what he achieved, but whether or not he's given a posthumous pardon shouldn't depend on that. IF (big "if") retrospective pardons are valid, they should also be given to former bus drivers, office workers and dustmen who were convicted and punished for the same offences. Then there is the issue of how far you go back. You couldn't have pardons being issued for the victims of religious persecution under the Tudors or the French and Italian governments apologising for the invasions of the Normans and the Romans! Maybe it makes sense while people are still around who knew the individual well - in which case, I imagine that does apply to Turing. Maybe he has elderly nephews and nieces? It must be a bitter-sweet moment, though, for a load of elderly men who were convicted, punished and ostracised due to their sexual preferences, but who did normal jobs. They may have been just as moral as Turing, but they get no pardon because they weren't talented high-achievers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 I'm sure there must have been many other homosexual men treated in the same way. Do they get pardoned too? Or do you have to be a genius to earn it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les-TA-Jon Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 This summarises my view's pretty closely - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/24/alan-turing-pardon-wrong-gay-men And there's nothing wrong with apologising DavieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haydos Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Seriously, what the fvck is the point in this meaningless gesture? If you're going to do something don't pussy about it like this. If he deserves 'pardoning' (never mind it seeming very condescending in the first place) so do all gays who were persecuted. Why does he get a special gay hoorah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Seriously, what the fvck is the point in this meaningless gesture? If you're going to do something don't pussy about it like this. If he deserves 'pardoning' (never mind it seeming very condescending in the first place) so do all gays who were persecuted. Why does he get a special gay hoorah? My thoughts. A 'pardon' for being gay? How fvcking patronising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Just rewrite the history books so future generations do not see the bad bits. Well maybe keep the bad bits for comparison on how societ has matured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox92 Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 It is meaningless, but it's about time. Man's a hero. Shame not many people know who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 This pardon seems to send out a strange message. IF it is appropriate to issue such pardons and to apologise for legitimate legal judgments in the past (a big "if"), surely everyone who suffered due to the laws of the past should be pardoned? This isn't just a hypothetical argument. There are presumably hundreds of older men still living now who were punished for having gay sex as young men. This pardon seems to say "we're sorry about punishing people due to the values of the past, but only if they've achieved great things in life". Turing deserves great acclaim for what he achieved, but whether or not he's given a posthumous pardon shouldn't depend on that. IF (big "if") retrospective pardons are valid, they should also be given to former bus drivers, office workers and dustmen who were convicted and punished for the same offences. Then there is the issue of how far you go back. You couldn't have pardons being issued for the victims of religious persecution under the Tudors or the French and Italian governments apologising for the invasions of the Normans and the Romans! Maybe it makes sense while people are still around who knew the individual well - in which case, I imagine that does apply to Turing. Maybe he has elderly nephews and nieces? It must be a bitter-sweet moment, though, for a load of elderly men who were convicted, punished and ostracised due to their sexual preferences, but who did normal jobs. They may have been just as moral as Turing, but they get no pardon because they weren't talented high-achievers... Quite. As someone of Norman heritage I will not be apologising for invading England and slaughtering thousands of Saxons. :xmaswink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 This summarises my view's pretty closely - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/24/alan-turing-pardon-wrong-gay-men And there's nothing wrong with apologising DavieG Well it would help if the person you are apologising to could hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDog Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Homophobia is rife, even at Christmas. I was on a steam train in Derbyshire to the fake North Pole station a couple of days ago and witnessed it for myself. Some waiter brought some mulled wine round for people (not for me) and he talked in that gay style like Serge off Beverly Hills Cop, but not with the French accent. When he was walking off some kid aged 4-5 said, "Gran, he's a man but he talks like a woman." Cutting remark from the youngster. The gay fella must have heard him! It was un-pc of me, but I did laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 How do you know he was gay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacamion Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Homophobia is wrong. Attitudes have changed tremendously (in both senses) within my lifetime. That's great. However, I feel really out of touch with a government which feels the need to assuage the hurt feelings of dead people. Dead people can't hear you. It's like expressing disapproval at the foreign policy decisions of Mary Stuart. Pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDog Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 How do you know he was gay? He had a skipping rope in his pocket and I heard him say he's going to watch Bambi one night this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 Some laws when repealed should also carry automatic pardons. I have no idea what the practical implications are of that. Surely when we decided to decriminalise homosexuality we decided that we were wrong to persecute people for homosexual activity in the past. It does remind me that we have been quite a nasty illiberal country in the recent past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zingari Posted 24 December 2013 Share Posted 24 December 2013 How do you know he was gay? His name is an anagram of Anal Rutting .( ok i had to add an extra t ) He wasn't the only one who could crack codes :xmassmile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haydos Posted 25 December 2013 Share Posted 25 December 2013 Homophobia is wrong. Attitudes have changed tremendously (in both senses) within my lifetime. That's great. However, I feel really out of touch with a government which feels the need to assuage the hurt feelings of dead people. Dead people can't hear you. It's like expressing disapproval at the foreign policy decisions of Mary Stuart. Pointless. I kind of agree. I don't think you should feel out of touch though, they should. Don't ever let our pathetic government make you feel out of touch for what should basically be an everyday occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 25 December 2013 Share Posted 25 December 2013 Isn't a case of the ones doing the apo;ogising feeling better or making them look better people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Year Of The Fox Posted 25 December 2013 Share Posted 25 December 2013 I just think its incredibly sad we could ever to do that to a national hero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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