WW1 - was it worth it?

[Stadt]

The arms race was another key underlying cause, Britain built the first Dreadnought and Germany soon followed, so we were perhaps accountable for lighting the fuse so to speak. 

 

Clemenceau in particular was far too aggressive about the Treaty of Versailles and wanted Germany crippled, obviously lots of other factors were involved buy if you had to blame an individual for angering Germany I'd say it was him.

[Webbo]

We only joined the war when Germany invaded neutral Belgium. There is no doubt about it Germany was to blame for starting the war.

[Stadt]

We only joined the war when Germany invaded neutral Belgium. There is no doubt about it Germany was to blame for starting the war.

Of course, but without arms the war wouldn't have started. It was a treaty signed in the 1800s stating that we'd protect them, foolishly Germany didn't think Britain would honour it.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Whilst a huge loss of life is always bad, without WW1 we wouldn't have had WW2 so in my eyrs it wasn't a waste of time

[Charl91]

Whilst a huge loss of life is always bad, without WW1 we wouldn't have had WW2 so in my eyrs it wasn't a waste of time

 

Wait - are you saying WW2 was good?

 

I'm sure you're making a valid point, I just can't work out what it is.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Wait - are you saying WW2 was good?

I'm sure you're making a valid point, I just can't work out what it is.

We had to have WW2 to end any threat of our existence that's my point mate.

[Smudge]

I think it wasn't in fact the bloodiest conflict in human history by a long way, although obviously still hoerrendous.  In terms of Britain the civil war killed a lot more of our young men.

That doesn't sound right,

 

From what I've read there were 1.15 million British Empire military dead of which nearly 900,000 were from the UK. There were over 2 million British Empire casualties. The grand total is over 21 million casualties.

 

When you talk o f the civil war I assume you mean Charles v Cromwell where it's been estimated that about 100,000 were killed from a population of 5 million.

 

If you are talking about the American civil war, that is stated to be 620,00 from both sides

 

I must be missing your point Jon 

[Guest Bilo]

We only joined the war when Germany invaded neutral Belgium. There is no doubt about it Germany was to blame for starting the war.

 

Germany was to blame for Britain's involvement, but the war as a whole had been brewing for years due to Austria-Hungary waving its willy at Serbia with the Serbs doing all they could to awaken the sleeping giant. 

 

The tragic thing is that the Balkans have been drifting in and out of ethnic conflict ever since.

[l444ry]

We only joined the war when Germany invaded neutral Belgium. There is no doubt about it Germany was to blame for starting the war.

Germany went through Belgium on the way to fight their principle enemy, France. Britain had no military pact with France and the treaty with Belgium was 100 years old. So that is a trumped up excuse for a war if I ever heard one, albeit the one taught as fact.

[Rincewind]

Watching 37 days. Its to do with the lead up to the war. It was all omplicated muck up diplomancy. It seems Austria wanted war no matter what. They sent demands to Serbia that were difficult to agree upon. The did agree but they never accepted it.

[bovril]

Germany was to blame for Britain's involvement, but the war as a whole had been brewing for years due to Austria-Hungary waving its willy at Serbia with the Serbs doing all they could to awaken the sleeping giant. 

 

The tragic thing is that the Balkans have been drifting in and out of ethnic conflict ever since.

 

Yugoslavia, please. The 'balkan conflicts' of the 90s that people talked about only happened in one country. Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians and European Turks would disagree that there has been ethnic conflict in their countries since WWI.

[Webbo]

Germany went through Belgium on the way to fight their principle enemy, France. Britain had no military pact with France and the treaty with Belgium was 100 years old. So that is a trumped up excuse for a war if I ever heard one, albeit the one taught as fact.

Yeah, invading a neutral country, so what? 

[l444ry]

Yeah, invading a neutral country, so what? 

 

I would read and digest what Bilo says Webbo, and not misrepresent what I say so as to plough your own furrow.

[Nick]

Whilst a huge loss of life is always bad, without WW1 we wouldn't have had WW2 so in my eyrs it wasn't a waste of time

 

[Zingari]

Germany went through Belgium on the way to fight their principle enemy, France. Britain had no military pact with France and the treaty with Belgium was 100 years old. So that is a trumped up excuse for a war if I ever heard one, albeit the one taught as fact.

I tend to agree ,history is written by the victors , whatever we read is tendentious at best and possibly even outright lies '

I would imagine most historians are still pushing the lie that Pearl Harbor was an unprovoked surprise attack and that US involvement in Vietnam was caused by the gulf of Tonkin incident 

[maynefox]

IMO war occurred accidently, although there is evidence of nations acting a bellicose manner, did they all want a big war on the Continent? For me, such nations would have preferred smaller wars (Austria v Serbia) and the escalation of events got out of anyone's control - AJP Taylor's 'War by Timetable' is a good read, he argues train timetables played a key role in the outbreak of war OR the uncontrollable mobilisation of armed forces, particular by the Germans and Russians.
 

Visiting the war graves in Northern France and Belgium was very emotional for me. Seeing row on row of graves with soldiers (from both sides) who died so very young. God knows what they went through on the front line, how they felt, their fears etc, God bless them all. It's when I look back at all major wars and doubt humanity in general: "All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers" - Fenelon.

 

Was it worth it? Tricky to say, I think the aftermath of WW1 and the outbreak of WW2 overshadows what we were possibly fighting - a nation who wanted to expand and be a world hegemon? 
 

I for one hope none of us are involved in a major war ever.  I play cricket for my club on a pitch where it is surrounded by the nice Leicestershire countryside and when it is a nice Summer's day, nothing beats playing cricket in a nice location and I love it. In our clubhouse there is a picture of the 1939 squad and a caption saying 2 died in the war (WW2) at sea. I must have stared at that picture for 5 minutes, thinking those two men, like me was enjoying what was perhaps a nice summer in 1939 playing cricket with their mates and BOOM war changed all of that. 

[Stadt]

What makes me appreciate how heroic those soldiers were is that people my age (16) and younger desperately tried to enlist to help our country when it needed it - unprecedented patriotism that this country will never see again.

The sheer bravery and courage to want to go and fight in a foreign country, in terrible conditions against a better organised enemy is astonishing.

I know I couldn't do it, I'd have to do it but I'd be scared and wouldn't be confident with the rest of my generation around me.

Hopefully nothing as disastrous at either war happens ever again.

[Deucalion]

Yes.

[Mark_w]

What makes me appreciate how heroic those soldiers were is that people my age (16) and younger desperately tried to enlist to help our country when it needed it - unprecedented patriotism that this country will never see again.

The sheer bravery and courage to want to go and fight in a foreign country, in terrible conditions against a better organised enemy is astonishing.

I know I couldn't do it, I'd have to do it but I'd be scared and wouldn't be confident with the rest of my generation around me.

Hopefully nothing as disastrous at either war happens ever again.

 

I can't say I know an incredible lot about Britain in World War One. But I don't think they would have known that was their choice. I've always had the impression that there was an attitude that we'd easily win the war, it'd be over by Christmas, you don't want to miss it, War is glorious blah blah blah. Certainly when I think of the people who were 16 and under who wanted to sign up, I think of the majority as being very naive rather than very brave, perhaps that's unfair.

 

How much did the common man really know about the war before they went and fought in it?

[Stadt]

I can't say I know an incredible lot about Britain in World War One. But I don't think they would have known that was their choice. I've always had the impression that there was an attitude that we'd easily win the war, it'd be over by Christmas, you don't want to miss it, War is glorious blah blah blah. Certainly when I think of the people who were 16 and under who wanted to sign up, I think of the majority as being very naive rather than very brave, perhaps that's unfair.

How much did the common man really know about the war before they went and fought in it?

Fair point, but still the prospect of going to a foreign country where you have the possibility of dying would surely be daunting?

[Mark_w]

Fair point, but still the prospect of going to a foreign country where you have the possibility of dying would surely be daunting?

 

True but you don't really have to confront that to sign up to join the army, especially if you've had that positive view of war drummed into you. You don't really have to face it until you're on a boat heading for mainland Europe. As far as I'm concerned the whole point of the propaganda campaign was to stop people from actually thinking about what they were doing before they signed up to join the army and I think they did a spectacular job.

[Stadt]

True but you don't really have to confront that to sign up to join the army, especially if you've had that positive view of war drummed into you. You don't really have to face it until you're on a boat heading for mainland Europe. As far as I'm concerned the whole point of the propaganda campaigns was to stop people from actually thinking about what they were doing before they signed up to join the army and I think they did a spectacular job.

The war propaganda did it's job perfectly, the poster with Kitchener on it is probably one of the most iconic images form WWI.

[Zingari]

True but you don't really have to confront that to sign up to join the army, especially if you've had that positive view of war drummed into you. You don't really have to face it until you're on a boat heading for mainland Europe. As far as I'm concerned the whole point of the propaganda campaigns was to stop people from actually thinking about what they were doing before they signed up to join the army and I think they did a spectacular job.

Propagada campaign ?  yes quite right !

 It's amazing how many are suffering under the strange  delusion that only foreigners use propaganda , and the British soldiers are making informed choices to join in the wars and fight the evil enemy 

[Zingari]

Everyone  should listen to the lyrics of the songs Alf Bentley posted in this thread , especially Green Fields of France .

 When I say listen , I mean really really listen . 

[davieG]

Propagada campaign ?  yes quite right !

 It's amazing how many are suffering under the strange  delusion that only foreigners use propaganda , and the British soldiers are making informed choices to join in the wars and fight the evil enemy

Not forgetting that conditions here for the average man and woman were pretty appalling, a well paid life in the forces would have looked like a massive step up in life style.