2015 Election season ..........stuff it in here.

[ADK]

I'm honestly a bit miserable about politics, was looking into joining the Lib Dems but the state of that party makes Bentley's Roof look like the most balanced and reasonable football forum in the world by comparison. I don't know how a party manages to destroy itself so completely in the space of 5 years.

 

I know liberalism is a popular ideal and there are many people who would back a proper liberal party, but there is nothing on the ballot paper that is liberal.

[Rincewind]

The true Liberal party only has a few councellors up north. They do not get the publicity and  have disassociated themselves from the LibDems.A pity because I am sure there are a lot of people who wants a middle of the road party. Think they are called LiberalUK now.

 

http://www.liberal.org.uk/index.htm

[Guest]

I think that it does matter, even if they're nowhere near power. 

 

Part of the reason they lost in 2015 is that they lost important public arguments over the previous 5 years. Notably, the public ended up accepting the idea that the deficit was Labour's fault, that Labour couldn't be trusted with the economy and that the Tories were a "safe pair of hands" getting the economy back on track. The lack of a coherent opposition was a problem as early as 2010, due to the previous leadership contest (& Harman being useless as temporary leader in 2010).

 

Plus there's no guarantee the Tory majority will persist until 2020. Major won a bigger majority in 1992 and was in a mess well before 1997, having lost various byelections, rebel MPs voting against him etc. Europe is one of several issues that could cause internal divisions in Tory ranks over the coming years. If that happens - or even if it doesn't and the majority is sustained until 2020 - Labour needs to convince the public it's a credible alternative government ready to take over if they lose faith with the Tories some time between now and 2020.

 

Fair enough. Personally I think the public will take no notice of 3 years of incoherence and bloodletting as long as in the 2 year run up to the election, labour has found a united path and are showing that they have "seen the light". Obviously, as with many things, what I think may be wrong!

[Guest]

I'm honestly a bit miserable about politics, was looking into joining the Lib Dems but the state of that party makes Bentley's Roof look like the most balanced and reasonable football forum in the world by comparison. I don't know how a party manages to destroy itself so completely in the space of 5 years.

 

I know liberalism is a popular ideal and there are many people who would back a proper liberal party, but there is nothing on the ballot paper that is liberal.

 

I'm not sure that the Lib Dems should be called a "proper liberal party". For many years they were the middle party between the Right and Left of the conservatives and Labour. More recently they have tried to remain in that position but the space has been squeezd from both sides. Now Labour are trying for that traditional Liberal ground. I think too many "true Liberal" ideas are not "middle ground".

[ADK]

I'm not sure that the Lib Dems should be called a "proper liberal party". For many years they were the middle party between the Right and Left of the conservatives and Labour. More recently they have tried to remain in that position but the space has been squeezd from both sides. Now Labour are trying for that traditional Liberal ground. I think too many "true Liberal" ideas are not "middle ground".

 

Ideally I'd like a party that is primarily liberal, and prior to the Clegg debacle, the Lib Dems were close enough to make me want to vote for them and be enthusiastic about them. On an economic left/right axis I'd say a liberal party should encompass all but the extremes of that axis.

[Guest]

Ideally I'd like a party that is primarily liberal, and prior to the Clegg debacle, the Lib Dems were close enough to make me want to vote for them and be enthusiastic about them. On an economic left/right axis I'd say a liberal party should encompass all but the extremes of that axis.

 

Clegg's actions didn't really change their ideals. They simply didn't fulfill a promise that they had made in the event that they won the election. I'm sure if they had won they'd have fulfilled the promise.

 

There is a difference between classical liberalism and social liberalism but personally I'd go along with social liberalism without a second thought.

[Carl the Llama]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQlILd4eteQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8DcXCYBjSc

[Guest MattP]

The main thing that needs to happen north of the border is for Labour to make themselves electable again. They dominated politics in Scotland for decades, and just getting a foothold there is crucial to giving the party a chance to return to power in 2020/2025. Scottish Labour would probably be best served run completely separately from the main party - going more left in Scotland and highlighting SNP failures.

 

The chances are that the SNP will piss Scottish voters off, either through losing arguments and being out negotiated by the far more canny Tories or by ending up working with the Tories on some issues. What Labour need to do is return them to the point where only the Braveheart mentality are staunch SNP voters. What's obvious is that the SNP managed to convert many who were staunch Labour voters for decades. Labour need to show they're a viable party of government who are willing to boost Scotland in a way that the isolated and largely incompetent SNP MPs will not be able to. 

 

If Labour can be wiped out north of the border in one night after generations of dominance, and the Lib Dems can lose 50 of their MPs in one evening, it seems presumptuous to rule out Labour doing the same to the SNP and claiming seats again in Scotland. I don't think the SNP will be down to the point where you can fit all of their Westminster MPs in a Smart car in 2020, but losing 20-30 MPs to Labour is very possible if Labour learns the lessons of 2015 and regroups. This'll be hard work, but impossible? Far from it. 

 

Fair play, I admire the optimism but I think you are a bit deluded with regards to Scotland, you are hated just as much as the Tories now (even more so judging by Jim Murphy's walk throughs in Glasgow) by these 'Yes' voters and I don't think they will be coming back to you, what it was for the Tories in 97' is what it is for Labour now, this is tribal politics and those 45% now see you as a toxic party who they could never vote for. I don't think policy even matters with these people.

 

Burnham has to be a unifying leader, almost from the get go if there's to be a coherent opposition.

 

At least the changes to Labour's voting system reduces the influence of the unions on the process, and ought to avoid the Union Candidate claims that so dogged Miliband.

 

Does it really matter? I don't think it does. Cameron doesn't lead a unified party, Miliband did, the former won an election and the latter got massacred.

 

It's about whether you can convince the public to vote for you that is important.

 

Plus there's no guarantee the Tory majority will persist until 2020. Major won a bigger majority in 1992 and was in a mess well before 1997, having lost various byelections, rebel MPs voting against him etc. Europe is one of several issues that could cause internal divisions in Tory ranks over the coming years. If that happens - or even if it doesn't and the majority is sustained until 2020 - Labour needs to convince the public it's a credible alternative government ready to take over if they lose faith with the Tories some time between now and 2020.

 

I know we've been through this but if any Tory backbencher starts kicking up such a fuss that this could happen again they should be expelled from the party, I could understand it in the Major years as they had been in power for ages but to cause such disruption this time around when they have had a chance to do something against the odds would be ludicrous.

 

Surely the backbenchers will show some common sense ths time around.

[Alf Bentley]

I know we've been through this but if any Tory backbencher starts kicking up such a fuss that this could happen again they should be expelled from the party, I could understand it in the Major years as they had been in power for ages but to cause such disruption this time around when they have had a chance to do something against the odds would be ludicrous.

 

Surely the backbenchers will show some common sense ths time around.

 

Might be wishful thinking on my part, faced with 5 years of Tory government. But there are some major Tory fault lines between pragmatists (like Cameron, even Osborne) and ideological elements who'll see this as a historic opportunity to massively shrink the state, get out of Europe etc. Doubtless there'll be a honeymoon period now, but events are likely to bring those fault lines under pressure:

 

- EU: Even if Tory MPs are allowed to campaign on either side in the EU referendum, I can imagine a lot of scorn for Cameron if he wins only limited concessions and campaigns to stay in; and will the Eurosceptics just accept it if they lose the referendum? For starters, it sounds unlikely that much ground will be given on the free movement of labour, so immigration is set to remain a big issue,

- Deficit/Cuts: This could be a source of Tory tension either way: proceed with the promised cuts and there could be some severe effects, including in traditional "Tory" spheres like defence, police, border control, prisons. On the other hand, if the economy starts creaking, this time Osborne won't be able to ease off on cuts and blame the Lib Dems - will the "shrink the state" lot accept the deficit remaining high and fewer cuts in public spending?

- Cameron himself is an issue: He's promised not to serve a 3rd term but to serve a full 2nd term. How will that work? Will he break his word and go after 2-3 years like Blair did or have a Tory leadership contest just before the general election - that would be strange and probably not very unifying.

 

Plus, Cameron is seen as some sort of traitorous wet by some on the right, over issues like gay marriage, foreign aid, defence spending, fox hunting etc. It would only take half a dozen MPs to start rebelling and he could find himself reliant on a few Ulster Unionists as there are few other options, Carswell apart, and no Lib Dem buffer to protect him against right-wing rebels. Expelling them from the party wouldn't help him win votes inside or outside parliament. And that's all without the random "events" that strike governments of every hue (economic downturn, NHS/schools crisis, terrorist outrages, Eurozone crises, under-equipped troops, oil prices etc.) and without the likely loss of seats at byelections....

 

Yes, it's probably just me trying to cheer myself up that we're not necessarily in for 5 solid years of triumphant Thatcherite Tory government.....but the Tories could yet end up looking pretty vulnerable within a couple of years. Quite who, if anyone, will be there to take advantage of such a situation is quite another matter....Labour, Lib Dems & UKIP all seem in a mess in the short-term, but which, if any, can rebuild within 1-2 years?

[Guest MattP]

I think so, you might be right he'll have some trouble but I'm just finding it impossible to imagine that so many would be stupid enough to put the party in any sort of position where they could lose power, I think the EU referendum will be a free vote and campaign and I doubt it will actually encompass anything party politically as like the Scottish ref. we'll have two camps that aren't connected to the main parties.

 

As for Cameron I imagine he bows out before the next election and they have a leadership election, I don't really see the problem with that, quite smart as well given how much PR it will give the party just before 2020.

 

You're not in for any Thatcherite Tory government whatever happens, it's a far different party to what it was 30 years ago.

[ADK]

I think this sums up the Lib Dem problem for me:

 

 

Now that sounds like a decent party.

 

 

[Guest]

I think this sums up the Lib Dem problem for me:

 

 

Now that sounds like a decent party.

 

They are a decent party. Nice guys don't win though.

[Alf Bentley]

You're not in for any Thatcherite Tory government whatever happens, it's a far different party to what it was 30 years ago.

 

I wish that I could believe that. Every government, even Labour governments are now Thatcherite to varying degrees, aren't they? The size of the safety net is the only difference...

 

I appreciate that the Tories are now more liberal on social policy, but I still focus on the meat & drink economic stuff: personal/corporate tax v. spending on society, business freedom v. labour rights, redistribution etc. Not that these are one or the other choices....

 

We'll see.... As for Charlie Kennedy, has that photo been photoshopped? Surely his hand was holding a quadruple Scotch on the rocks that has been photoshopped out in favour of "Freedom, Justice, Honesty"? 

Not that I'm in a position to take the piss out of anyone else's drinking habits. I wonder what he'll do with his life now. I hope he doesn't drown himself in booze, anyway, as he seems a genuinely nice bloke....not a reputation that the Lib Dems often have as local campaigners. In my experience, they're often the dirtiest campaigners of the bloody lot!

 

I'm all in favour of Freedom (& Justice, Honesty, Motherhood & Apple Pie). Labour's centralising instincts is what has mostly put me off them over the years - on democratic instinct, I feel closer to the Lib Dem instinct for devolution of power, they just don't offer enough social transformation for my liking.

 

Us political obsessives need a new politics thread, now that the election has been and gone.... 

[davieG]

I wish that I could believe that. Every government, even Labour governments are now Thatcherite to varying degrees, aren't they? The size of the safety net is the only difference...

 

I appreciate that the Tories are now more liberal on social policy, but I still focus on the meat & drink economic stuff: personal/corporate tax v. spending on society, business freedom v. labour rights, redistribution etc. Not that these are one or the other choices....

 

We'll see.... As for Charlie Kennedy, has that photo been photoshopped? Surely his hand was holding a quadruple Scotch on the rocks that has been photoshopped out in favour of "Freedom, Justice, Honesty"? 

Not that I'm in a position to take the piss out of anyone else's drinking habits. I wonder what he'll do with his life now. I hope he doesn't drown himself in booze, anyway, as he seems a genuinely nice bloke....not a reputation that the Lib Dems often have as local campaigners. In my experience, they're often the dirtiest campaigners of the bloody lot!

 

I'm all in favour of Freedom (& Justice, Honesty, Motherhood & Apple Pie). Labour's centralising instincts is what has mostly put me off them over the years - on democratic instinct, I feel closer to the Lib Dem instinct for devolution of power, they just don't offer enough social transformation for my liking.

 

Us political obsessives need a new politics thread, now that the election has been and gone.... 

http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/topic/100556-post-election-blues/

[Alf Bentley]

http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/topic/100556-post-election-blues/

 

I've already been in action in the "post-election blues" thread, Davie.

 

But now I want to move on from the election and move on from the "blues" (except in an LCFC sense). We need more positivity....

 

What we need now is a "The Tories are doomed despite all appearances to the contrary" thread! 

[davieG]

I've already been in action in the "post-election blues" thread, Davie.

 

But now I want to move on from the election and move on from the "blues" (except in an LCFC sense). We need more positivity....

 

What we need now is a "The Tories are doomed despite all appearances to the contrary" thread! 

 

 

It was called the blues as we already have the good news thread which you can use any hint of a Tory demise.

 

Good news and bad news are like beauty in the eye of the beholder.

[Rincewind]

Bad news brings all the ostriches out.

[Stadt]

Bad news brings all the ostriches out.

Damn right, it's better than yours

[Guest MattP]

The SNP again, just imagine voting for his bunch of oafs. The more I watch the more I think Bilo might be right, do they really think behaving like kids will achieve independence?

 

 

Those who want respect, give respect.

[The Horse's Mouth]

SNP are absolute frauds. In fairness though, most act like utter oaths in the house

[Kopfkino]

The SNP again, just imagine voting for his bunch of oafs. The more I watch the more I think Bilo might be right, do they really think behaving like kids will achieve independence?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npRPUyeAMKE

 

Those who want respect, give respect.

But yet it's alright to make obscene noises over other people speaking.

I respect the tradition but clapping is no worse than a lot of the other stuff that goes on in the chamber

[Guest MattP]

But yet it's alright to make obscene noises over other people speaking.

I respect the tradition but clapping is no worse than a lot of the other stuff that goes on in the chamber

 

Obscene noises are very very rare and it's the speakers job to clamp down on them.

 

Surprised you feel that way, even more given how you clearly have a fantastic political mind, I think the traditions of the house of of huge importance and the etiquette should be upheld by all, the 'yay' or 'nay' or 'here here' isn't overly used unless a certain MP clearly agrees with someone passionately and that is a brief show of support that would barely interrupt a speech or right of reply.

 

It would be absolutely ludicrous if the whole chamber started applauding whenever Cameron or the opposition leader spoke, would turn it into a total farce, let alone it happening when minority parties start doing it as well. It would be like a load of cockneys turning up at St Andrews in the 19th century singing whilst someone is trying to putt

[Bilo]

The 'no applause' rule has been neatly summed up by MattP.

 

It's more than just tradition for its own sake, it's a means of keeping order and ensuring things actually get done. This is just yet another way of the SNP letting everybody know they're here by behaving like complete idiots, right down to the silly buttonholes.

 

They'll be friendless, ineffectual and, by 2020, significantly less popular. The only SNP member I'd consider voting for is Sturgeon, and she's in Holyrood. The most experienced politician they have in Westminster is Salmond, who led the woeful independence campaign. 

[Guest MattP]

The 'no applause' rule has been neatly summed up by MattP.

 

It's more than just tradition for its own sake, it's a means of keeping order and ensuring things actually get done. This is just yet another way of the SNP letting everybody know they're here by behaving like complete idiots, right down to the silly buttonholes.

 

They'll be friendless, ineffectual and, by 2020, significantly less popular. The only SNP member I'd consider voting for is Sturgeon, and she's in Holyrood. The most experienced politician they have in Westminster is Salmond, who led the woeful independence campaign. 

 

I would like to have seen if Salmond was joining in, if he wasn't you have to ask why he hadn't let his fellow MP's it's not acceptable.

 

They had 6 MP's before this in the last parliament, they didn't all start this nonsense back then whenever a speech was made, it's clear they are deliberately acting the fools.....least they seem to have stopped bullying pensioners now though for the time being.

[Bilo]

I would like to have seen if Salmond was joining in, if he wasn't you have to ask why he hadn't let his fellow MP's it's not acceptable.

 

They had 6 MP's before this in the last parliament, they didn't all start this nonsense back then whenever a speech was made, it's clear they are deliberately acting the fools.....least they seem to have stopped bullying pensioners now though for the time being.

 

I expect that's because the Beast of Bolsover is a harder bastard than they gave him credit for!

 

Seriously though, you don't last nearly half a century in the HoC and earn nigh on universal respect, even from your opponents,, by being weak. They definitely targeted the wrong one there.

 

They'll all have been briefed and inducted on the subject of Parliamentary protocol just as every other new MP has, so they're deliberately playing the fool, Whether it's to portray a sense of political naivety so they can start spinning the yarn of Westminster oppression to their electorate, or whether they're simply trying to portray a united front, is unknown but it's a dangerous and unwise tactic. How long they'll be able to blame the English is probably less than they think, the voters they've picked up have voted for them with optimism and an expectation that things will change quickly now there are more Scottish voices in Parliament, I don't think they'll have the patience to listen to tales of imagined oppression and woe.

 

The nationalist fervour that got them into Westminster may not have the shelf life they hope, much like the Lib Dems probably expected to have 50 or more MPs forever more, so they need to tread carefully.