Guest MattP Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Can anyone offer up an explanation on what on earth Danny Alexander was doing this morning? I'm no expert on parliamentary procedure but I'm absolutely certain you are not allowed to use the despatch box to make what's effectively a party political speech?
leicsmac Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Every job doesn't create wealth at all, if it did your neighbours to the North wouldn't be eating grass on a daily basis. We have a debt of 1,400 billion, I think people are probably right to question if the jobs we are creating for the state are going to be totally neccessary. You can't keep squeezing the private sector and productive side of the economy to engorage in a bloated public sector - it just doesn't work no matter how nice it look to you. It seems they create enough and feed enough of the important people that the whole place doesn't collapse in bloody revolution though. I'm amazed it hasn't happened before now. From what I can tell the higher ups there have got into capitalism in a big way in the form of black market drug trafficking. Hilarious really. Perhaps if they stopped trying to fund the largest standing army on the planet and bribing Pakistani nuclear scientists they might have enough left over to actually buy food for the rest of their people. I do agree a massive public sector with only a small private sector doesn't work - ideally both would be comparable in size (with regulation and oversight of each other). But there are some things (health, education) that simply shouldn't be down to the whims of the market, because they are fundamental rights and as we know markets are volatile. Oh, and just because the public sector doesn't produce material wealth doesn't mean it's not 'productive'. Like I said, more to life than money.
UpTheLeagueFox Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Before the 2010 election, one of my daughter's teachers told the class that if the Tories won, kids would have to go to school six days a week. I explained that this was typical leftie scaremongering bollocks. Although not in those exact words.
MooseBreath Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Like I said, more to life than money. For an individual, of course, but for a government, not really. They need money to do anything and everything. I'm expecting a lot more of this from the left in the coming weeks though. There is no argument on the economy they can win, so they'll start talking about something more vague, less measurable with more easily manipulated data that they can use to claim superiority. Something like "quality of life" I guess will fit the bill. Ain't nothing but an admission of defeat to me.
SMX11 Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Again with the "creating wealth" spiel. Does every job - civil service or otherwise - simply have to make money for someone or something, rather than benefitting in some other way? Don't get me wrong - Labour should have known that at some point the worm was going to turn and prepared adequately for it - but I honestly don't see the reasoning behind having profit as the motivation for every single job. We obviously need public servants in a variety of roles but where does the money come from to pay from them? General taxation and/or borrowing. My argument was that Labour had created a lot of jobs that enlarged the state sector beyond what is sustainable for the private sector to pay for.
Alf Bentley Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 The Deficit under Labour grew year on year to 180 billion pounds borrowing, We've reduced that to 90b so far under tories, This figure should be around 70b next year, before becoming a surplus in the next 4/5 years. Tories, given 5 years to solve a 13 year mess. Clearly you didnt bother to watch the budget or you'd have seen the figures I have "bandied about" I watched the budget, I've even linked it... The source is the OBR which I've also looked at. Check yourself. Not had chance to read all the posts in full since yesterday, but I'll have alook soon, just saw my name skimming through. I'd have liked to watch the budget in full, but was busy working yesterday. I did see extended coverage on the News & Newsnight. What I'm mainly challenging is your claims in bold (above). Here's my graph again, with ONS figures showing that the deficit under Labour did NOT "grow year on year" and Labour did NOT create a "13 year mess". http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data#img-1 Whatever else Labour did wrong (plenty), the facts are: it inherited a small, falling deficit; it eliminated it; it ran a surplus for 4 years; it then ran a small deficit for 6 years (bigger than Thatcher, smaller than Major); then the 2008 global financial crash sent borrowing though the roof. If you can find some OBR stats to refute that, please do, but I'd be surprised - particularly as the OBR didn't exist until 2010. In case of confusion, I'm not denying that the Tories have cut the deficit. They forecast that they were going to eliminate it within 5 years, which should make us take forecasts of a surplus within 3-4 years with a massive pinch of salt. But at what cost to the social fabric have they cut the deficit - and at what even greater cost would they make even deeper cuts if re-elected? I'm not sure where your £180bn to £90bn OBR figures come from, as I can't find them. That's quibbling, though. Here are the OBR figures that I could find: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31942068 "The deficit has fallen from £153bn in 2009-10, when Osborne took office to £97.5bn in 2013-14, according to the OBR" http://www.cityam.com/211979/quick-guide-all-key-measures £97.5bn is a hell of a lot of money to find from the annual budget mainly through cuts - cuts ADDITIONAL (must stress that) to those already applicable, at a time when there are growing numbers of old people and children, and an existential global terror threat
leicsmac Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 For an individual, of course, but for a government, not really. They need money to do anything and everything. I'm expecting a lot more of this from the left in the coming weeks though. There is no argument on the economy they can win, so they'll start talking about something more vague, less measurable with more easily manipulated data that they can use to claim superiority. Something like "quality of life" I guess will fit the bill. Ain't nothing but an admission of defeat to me. If the economic argument was the only one that won elections then it would be a pretty different game. Those ;vague' and nebulous issues that you talk about that are not fired by crass materialism are actually pretty important, though I must say Labour and the Tories tend not to differ too much on social issues nowadays.
Alf Bentley Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Can anyone offer up an explanation on what on earth Danny Alexander was doing this morning? I'm no expert on parliamentary procedure but I'm absolutely certain you are not allowed to use the despatch box to make what's effectively a party political speech? Give the poor lad a break. He'll be on the dole in 7 weeks time! That's a moment that I'm looking forward to on 8th May. Clegg would be a good head to see on the platter, but I can't quite believe that will happen. Alexander's a gonner, I reckon.
leicsmac Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 We obviously need public servants in a variety of roles but where does the money come from to pay from them? General taxation and/or borrowing. My argument was that Labour had created a lot of jobs that enlarged the state sector beyond what is sustainable for the private sector to pay for. I have no disagreement with you there. Just trying to curb some of the hyperbole that comes around on here every so often.
Guest MattP Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 It seems they create enough and feed enough of the important people that the whole place doesn't collapse in bloody revolution though. I'm amazed it hasn't happened before now. From what I can tell the higher ups there have got into capitalism in a big way in the form of black market drug trafficking. Hilarious really. Perhaps if they stopped trying to fund the largest standing army on the planet and bribing Pakistani nuclear scientists they might have enough left over to actually buy food for the rest of their people. I do agree a massive public sector with only a small private sector doesn't work - ideally both would be comparable in size (with regulation and oversight of each other). But there are some things (health, education) that simply shouldn't be down to the whims of the market, because they are fundamental rights and as we know markets are volatile. Oh, and just because the public sector doesn't produce material wealth doesn't mean it's not 'productive'. Like I said, more to life than money. I think the only thing that stops a revolution in North Korea is the fear and intimidation of it's government, when you have a leader who (allegedly) feeds his brother alove to hungry dogs I'd wary of stepping out of line. I don't see how you could have a private and public sector of equal size unless you had an astronomical taxation rate, you have to worry about money when you are a government as you need it to pay for the things you want to do, it's that sort of thinking that hs got us into the mess we are in. Before the 2010 election, one of my daughter's teachers told the class that if the Tories won, kids would have to go to school six days a week. I explained that this was typical leftie scaremongering bollocks. Although not in those exact words. I remember some outrageous pro-Labour propaganda from Brookvale High School thinking back, you have to wonder if the teaching profession has a sinsister agenda to it it given just how many stories like this you hear and how they generally react as a collective to Tory governments. There were 'teachers' on this website in 2010 telling everyone with a Tory government there would be no NHS in 2015 - the lengths some of these people go to is astounding to misrepresent.
Guest MattP Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Give the poor lad a break. He'll be on the dole in 7 weeks time! That's a moment that I'm looking forward to on 8th May. Clegg would be a good head to see on the platter, but I can't quite believe that will happen. Alexander's a gonner, I reckon. He's as dead as the Dodo. 20–29 Jan 2015 Ashcroft 1,000 Con 10% Lab 13% LD 21% UKIP 4% GREEN1% SNP 50% 1% 29% over LD Good example of the Labour vote collapse in Scotland there as well 23% last election when they were on their knees to 13% priedicted, quite a few seats they could be pushed into 4th by the Tories
leicsmac Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 I think the only thing that stops a revolution in North Korea is the fear and intimidation of it's government, when you have a leader who (allegedly) feeds his brother alove to hungry dogs I'd wary of stepping out of line. I don't see how you could have a private and public sector of equal size unless you had an astronomical taxation rate, you have to worry about money when you are a government as you need it to pay for the things you want to do, it's that sort of thinking that hs got us into the mess we are in. I remember some outrageous pro-Labour propaganda from Brookvale High School thinking back, you have to wonder if the teaching profession has a sinsister agenda to it it given just how many stories like this you hear and how they generally react as a collective to Tory governments. There were 'teachers' on this website in 2010 telling everyone with a Tory government there would be no NHS in 2015 - the lengths some of these people go to is astounding to misrepresent. There will come a point where the vast majority realise they've got nothing left to lose, though. When the army itself begins starving...that's when it might get interesting. I'd fancy the Chinese to prop them up before that happens though - the status quo suits them, and for that matter, everyone else in the international community apart from the poor ones actually in there. Just another reason why I loathe realpolitik. Yeah, perhaps equivalent was the wrong word. Comparable, perhaps. But my point on education and health stands. As for teachers, this argument has been had before but most of them just want to teach without the goalposts being moved every couple of years by those who have never faced down a group of angry sullen pubescent teenagers in their life.
Webbo Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 I remember some outrageous pro-Labour propaganda from Brookvale High School thinking back, you have to wonder if the teaching profession has a sinsister agenda to it it given just how many stories like this you hear and how they generally react as a collective to Tory governments. There were 'teachers' on this website in 2010 telling everyone with a Tory government there would be no NHS in 2015 - the lengths some of these people go to is astounding to misrepresent. The frightening thing is is they probably believe it.
Jon the Hat Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Some guff in this thread today! I find the idea that there is no savings to be had in local councils without cutting front line services so incredible I don't think anyone can seriously believe it. Anyone who really does cut front line services like social care before they sort out the admin side deserves shooting.
purpleronnie Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 I take it back. Just seen a full length shot of Mr Osbourne in his suit, needs a better tailor, it didn't fit....he couldn't even get that right.
sphericalfox Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Some guff in this thread today! I find the idea that there is no savings to be had in local councils without cutting front line services so incredible I don't think anyone can seriously believe it. Anyone who really does cut front line services like social care before they sort out the admin side deserves shooting. In front of their families amirite?
sphericalfox Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Oh dear When you try and make someone look a tit Spherry you should read what they write properly first. (although in fairness you got 3 rep points for that so you're not alone) The reps I'd say are a good indicator that some people got the joke. If you write in riddles, expect a bit of jibing.
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Quite pleased with it. The economy has rallied well, after the financial disaster Labour left the country in. Still going to vote U.K.I.P. though.
Buce Posted 19 March 2015 Posted 19 March 2015 Still going to vote U.K.I.P. though. Meanwhile, in other news, the Pope confirms his catholicism...
MooseBreath Posted 20 March 2015 Posted 20 March 2015 A bit more detail released on the HS3/Northern Powerhouse idea http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31978631 I'm all for spending lots of money on infrastructure but is rail travel really the future? Can't help but think that money would be better off spent on roads.
Carl the Llama Posted 20 March 2015 Posted 20 March 2015 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31970871According to the chap at the bottom of that article, 75% of mental health problems go untreated. A shocking figure if true, though I can't actually find a source for it anywhere.
Strokes Posted 20 March 2015 Posted 20 March 2015 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31970871According to the chap at the bottom of that article, 75% of mental health problems go untreated. A shocking figure if true, though I can't actually find a source for it anywhere. That really can't be true can it, maybe if you take all the self diagnosed people into account.
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