BlueSi13 Posted 3 September 2011 Share Posted 3 September 2011 HOW?? You can see that as negative maybe. It would seem to me it implies that culture and 'genetics' are constantly changing, as it still is. Not only for our country but for all. What was considered 'English' a hundred years ago is far removed from today. You can look at any countries national football team as a microcosm for how immigration has improved their country. France wouldn't be anywhere near the team they are without the players garnered from their former colonies. I get what your trying to say, but all nations change and evolve genetically over time, England is no different. The sheer scale of immigration to the UK and the west seen in the last 15-20 is unprecedented in history, our culture of democratic freedoms and equality regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexual preference, and religion is a legacy of our 1000 years of mixing and progression. Rome wasn't built in a day and this didn't all come to pass in 2 decades. People are perfectly free to express their opinions and their concerns regarding the subject, as large numbers of newcomers to this country come from lands and cultures where these ideals are not the accepted verse. However as i have mentioned, i personally believe immigration has been to our overall benefit, but we must also see it from the other side and not brand everyone who believes the mass immigration seen in the last 15 years be reduced as a racist. There are arguments both for and against it....all valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSi13 Posted 3 September 2011 Share Posted 3 September 2011 DIdn't mean defend so such as condone. The way you're playing down the negative actions and consequence of British rule in the world by playing the 'we started globalization' card is not very commendable. And if you think there's much exaggeration going on in this thread, look no further than your own comment. Not condoning the negative aspects of empire either, what i have made quite clear is that the British empire was not a black and white issue, in those times, empires were fashionable and good for business, the French, Germans, Spanish, Turkish, Russians, Japanese, and Portuguese all knew the same. My original comment was in reply to a post with a lot of self-flagellation going on, most of it unnecessary, unless he took part in the incidents he described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 3 September 2011 Share Posted 3 September 2011 Well we were responsible for sending criminals to Australia. yes it was not all looting and raping. many trade routes were set up competing with other countries. The country with the best and fastest ships came out on top. There were also a few battleswith the Spanish, French and Dutch and of course America who after being colonized decided they could manage without our help and telling them what to do. How times have changed. The rules for immigration and living here are much stricter than groups like EDL would have people believe. the fact is there iare more negative stories in circultion than the actual facts told by people in the know Ie. Immigration officers social service workers housing officers. so are a lot of stories going around in pubs and on the internet. As in conspiricy therories there are some who take those stories and retell them to suit their own agenda. The information is available I believe athousing offices law centres etc and Googable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st Century Fox Posted 3 September 2011 Share Posted 3 September 2011 I get what your trying to say, but all nations change and evolve genetically over time, England is no different. The sheer scale of immigration to the UK and the west seen in the last 15-20 is unprecedented in history, our culture of democratic freedoms and equality regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexual preference, and religion is a legacy of our 1000 years of mixing and progression. Rome wasn't built in a day and this didn't all come to pass in 2 decades. People are perfectly free to express their opinions and their concerns regarding the subject, as large numbers of newcomers to this country come from lands and cultures where these ideals are not the accepted verse. However as i have mentioned, i personally believe immigration has been to our overall benefit, but we must also see it from the other side and not brand everyone who believes the mass immigration seen in the last 15 years be reduced as a racist. There are arguments both for and against it....all valid. I agree with you on alot of points but the level of immigration now is not exactly unprecedented. We still only have something like 9% immigrate population, which is on the lower end of the spectrum compared with elsewhere in Europe. I also agree that people are free to voice there opinions but then again if they do so they should probably be able to come up with a justifiable reason that they haven't read from The Daily Mail. I highly doubt anyone whose saying that immigrants come over here and sponge benefits even know of any that do so let alone know any fullstop. Heaven forbid they ever become ill and require medical attention from one the the thousands of British Asian medical practitioners that form the cornerstone of one of the greatest achievements we as a national have developed, the NHS. I also won't say it was self-flagellation to suggest that the British happened to remove 300,000 Kikuyu's from the population of Kenya in the 1950's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDog Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 Err the fear of being blown up on a bus or tube by fundamental Islamic immigrants is that plain enough for you ? Well they're fearing the wrong people if they still believe that those four guys committed the atrocities of 7/7. The people who planned and carried out 7/7 had nothing to do with Islam. Those four guys were just patsies who were probably on their way to a 'meeting' that their handlers had arranged, you know, just so they were in the right place at the right time and all that. Recommended book for anyone interested in getting nearer to the truth than the official story would allow.... Terror on the Tube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panky and our gang Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 Judging by all the posts that this thread has attracted it seems fair to say that this wonderful multi cultural society we live in is not quite the Utopian dream the social experimenters thought it would be . It's not about the colour of some ones skin , the problems arise when there is a stark contrast in cultures non more so than the indigenous populations way of life compared to immigrant cultures . A lot of anger is being felt at the moment by the English towards seemingly ungrateful immigrants who choose not to integrate or hate our way of life so much they inflict acts of terrorism upon us . Even when born here some ethnic groups refuse to think of themselves as English preferring to call themselves " Afro Caribbean " or Asian British ect our authorities are just as guilty as they print on forms questions like what is your ethnic background ? why would they want to know that ? unless it is to give unfair advantage in job applications to " under represented " ethnic groups . It's erroneously called " positive discrimination " I have first hand knowledge of this practice and saw it happening . Take for instance the Leicestershire vs India cricket match the other day , A very big turn out of fans for the away side don't you think ? well not really because most of those waving India flags had caught the bus from Melton rd and went back to their homes there afterwards . That speaks volumes for me , they do not see themselves as British only choosing to do so when it suits them . Now you can call me racist or what ever you want but it will not change anything by shutting up towing the line and ignoring the deep seated problems facing this country do to unfettered and in a lot of case illegal immigration . The future is not bright and it's not orange . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shen Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 Take for instance the Leicestershire vs India cricket match the other day , A very big turn out of fans for the away side don't you think ? well not really because most of those waving India flags had caught the bus from Melton rd and went back to their homes there afterwards . That speaks volumes for me , they do not see themselves as British only choosing to do so when it suits them . Now you can call me racist or what ever you want but it will not change anything by shutting up towing the line and ignoring the deep seated problems facing this country do to unfettered and in a lot of case illegal immigration . The future is not bright and it's not orange . What an absolutely pathetic example Are you seriously suggesting that people should let go of their culture and heritage when they become residents of the UK? As you probably expected, I shook my head reading your post. I won't call you a racist, but your view of the world is very black and white ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panky and our gang Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 You don't get more black and white than waving another country's flag as demonstration of support when you were actually born and live here . Now it's my turn to shake my head . So what exactly are those Indian supporters saying by waving the Indian national flag ? I'm British born and have lived here all my life but in my heart I will always be Indian . yep I think so . and what's with the "resident " bit ? it makes it sound as if they are only here for a holiday instead of living here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDog Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 Judging by all the posts that this thread has attracted it seems fair to say that this wonderful multi cultural society we live in is not quite the Utopian dream the social experimenters thought it would be . I believe the opposite to be true. The 'social experimenters' or 'engineers' plans of creating chaos (they don't create utopias) are rolling along as smoothly as always. And they WILL bring order! A lot of anger is being felt at the moment by the English towards seemingly ungrateful immigrants who choose not to integrate or hate our way of life so much they inflict acts of terrorism upon us. Well it's a pity that more people don't try and look a little deeper into world events, because if they did then this anger could be directed towards the people it really should be directed to, and maybe things could change for the better. But I've given up thinking that that will ever happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave the caveman Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 What an absolutely pathetic example Are you seriously suggesting that people should let go of their culture and heritage when they become residents of the UK? As you probably expected, I shook my head reading your post. I won't call you a racist, but your view of the world is very black and white ... I don't agree with all of what he said, but British Indians and their refusal to support English cricket is actually an interesting case. As he quite rightly said, when India play here, many thousands of British Indians turn out to see them. These same cricket fans have absolutely no desire or intention of supporting Leicestershire or England despite in many cases being born and raised in Leicester. I think it's fair to ask why and easy to jump to racial conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shen Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 I don't agree with all of what he said, but British Indians and their refusal to support English cricket is actually an interesting case. As he quite rightly said, when India play here, many thousands of British Indians turn out to see them. These same cricket fans have absolutely no desire or intention of supporting Leicestershire or England despite in many cases being born and raised in Leicester. I think it's fair to ask why and easy to jump to racial conclusions. Because of historical reasons and strong cultural heritage and traditions of the people? I'm sure someone with a deeper understanding of cricket and its history in British colonial times can give a better explanation as to why this is particularly the case in that sport. But I really don't see the harm in British Asians supporting the team of their ancestry, or why it should offend the indigenous white British. Should they then also be offended if second-generation or later immigrants don't convert to Christianity or speak their indigenous language among themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 You forgot about the Romans... But what did they ever do for us... They founded Londinium. Cors, London is English... Surely all the great capital cities of the world are multi-cultural? It the trade hub of a nation, the first port of call for visitors. There's a very strong case to say that London is and always has been the LEAST English city in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acooling08 Posted 4 September 2011 Author Share Posted 4 September 2011 El Empty this isn't the time for your bullshit conspiracy theories! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 There are football fans born in Manchester and live in Southampton that support Manchester United. Closer home there are Leicester born America born Leicester supporters. Are you saying all people that live away from the birth place should support the local team of whatever sport it is? And it is not only the non-whites that do not mix. There is a generation of young people in some areas of Britain that fail to mix in. Until it is realised that problems go much further than black and white there will be repeat occurances of what was seen in August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shen Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 You don't get more black and white than waving another country's flag as demonstration of support. So frickin what? This isn't war, it's a sport! If a good friend of yours with whom you grew up with in Leicester and you get along very well and share lots of views with, but he supports Forest because his family is from Nottingham, would that affect your friendship beyond the occasional banter? If it would, I'd seriously look into my moral values and re-evaluate them if I were you.... and what's with the "resident " bit ? it makes it sound as if they are only here for a holiday instead of living here I don't know what you understand by residence, but I understand it as people living there, i.e. having a registered address. If I moved to the UK now, I'd be a resident in the UK, but I'd still be a Danish national and have Danish citizenship. By using residents I just tried to include those that haven't (yet) gotten a British passport or attained British citizenship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 Judging by all the posts that this thread has attracted it seems fair to say that this wonderful multi cultural society we live in is not quite the Utopian dream the social experimenters thought it would be . It's not about the colour of some ones skin , the problems arise when there is a stark contrast in cultures non more so than the indigenous populations way of life compared to immigrant cultures . A lot of anger is being felt at the moment by the English towards seemingly ungrateful immigrants who choose not to integrate or hate our way of life so much they inflict acts of terrorism upon us . Even when born here some ethnic groups refuse to think of themselves as English preferring to call themselves " Afro Caribbean " or Asian British ect our authorities are just as guilty as they print on forms questions like what is your ethnic background ? why would they want to know that ? unless it is to give unfair advantage in job applications to " under represented " ethnic groups . It's erroneously called " positive discrimination " I have first hand knowledge of this practice and saw it happening . Take for instance the Leicestershire vs India cricket match the other day , A very big turn out of fans for the away side don't you think ? well not really because most of those waving India flags had caught the bus from Melton rd and went back to their homes there afterwards . That speaks volumes for me , they do not see themselves as British only choosing to do so when it suits them . Now you can call me racist or what ever you want but it will not change anything by shutting up towing the line and ignoring the deep seated problems facing this country do to unfettered and in a lot of case illegal immigration . The future is not bright and it's not orange . I was born in England, have english ancestry going back to the 1200's (that we know of so far). In my childhood my parents moved to OZ and took me with them. I lived there for 40 years, in that time, i supported Leicester, and England WHENEVER they played against the Aussies. I went to matches and cheered for the english, i supported GB in the olympics, etc etc... please explain if that also tells you volumes about me... i would be so very interested in your simplistic views. I assume (due to you being on a Leicester forum) that you are a Leicester City fan. Please tell me if you were to move, and live in Derbyshire, would you immediatley become a dyed in the wool Rams fan? Unfortunately whilst you have the ability to put your opinion forward quite clearly... the majority of your opinion is based in racism and hatred and ignornace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSi13 Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 The subject of British Indians supporting India when they play against England...in England is an interesting one. I have to admit it is always disappointing to see from my perspective, i personally come from an Irish family who all moved to England to find work and a better life, as an offspring of that heritage i am proud of my Irish roots...however i am an Englishman and i will support England whoever they play. This business with the Indian cricket team all came to a head on their last tour whereby the majority Indian crowd at Lords actually booed the English team...i remember that caused quite a few stirs and scratching of heads. Though the same happened in Germany where Germans of Turkish descent came out in gargantuan numbers to support Turkey when they played Germany. Also in France when they played Tunisia, the same happened there with French Tunisians booing the French national anthem in Paris. Though it has to be argued that a heck of a lot of the Indian fans in the grounds where not "British Indians", a significant proportion were students and those on short terms visas. I have also found that British Asians mostly tend to support India/Pakistan/Bangladesh at cricket and yet support England at football. Also remember the massive numbers of English supporters outnumbering the Australian fans at cricket grounds in Australia. Will those guys drop sticks and start supporting Australia against England anytime soon...i doubt it.... However lets not pretend that integration of certain communities isn't a problem because we all know thats not true, but there has to be perspective sometimes. This has been been an phenomena seen all over Europe and goes way beyond trivial sporting contests, hence why politicians have abandoned the term "multiculturalism" and or fact declared it as a failed policy altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 The subject of British Indians supporting India when they play against England...in England is an interesting one. I have to admit it is always disappointing to see from my perspective, i personally come from an Irish family who all moved to England to find work and a better life, as an offspring of that heritage i am proud of my Irish roots...however i am an Englishman and i will support England whoever they play. This business with the Indian cricket team all came to a head on their last tour whereby the majority Indian crowd at Lords actually booed the English team...i remember that caused quite a few stirs and scratching of heads. Though the same happened in Germany where Germans of Turkish descent came out in gargantuan numbers to support Turkey when they played Germany. Also in France when they played Tunisia, the same happened there with French Tunisians booing the French national anthem in Paris. Though it has to be argued that a heck of a lot of the Indian fans in the grounds where not "British Indians", a significant proportion were students and those on short terms visas. I have also found that British Asians mostly tend to support India/Pakistan/Bangladesh at cricket and yet support England at football. Also remember the massive numbers of English supporters outnumbering the Australian fans at cricket grounds in Australia. Will those guys drop sticks and start supporting Australia against England anytime soon...i doubt it.... However lets not pretend that integration of certain communities isn't a problem because we all know thats not true, but there has to be perspective sometimes. This has been been an phenomena seen all over Europe and goes way beyond trivial sporting contests, hence why politicians have abandoned the term "multiculturalism" and or fact declared it as a failed policy altogether. I disagree, it's neither failed, nor abandoned. It is simply not perfect and never will be. But my reading of history tells me that there has been fighting, antagonism and war throughout the ages in Britian, At its simplest Great Britain has always been multicultural those cultures have been saxons, romans,celts, Derby fans, Scots, Welsh.... etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acooling08 Posted 4 September 2011 Author Share Posted 4 September 2011 I understand how culture has changed in the past few thousand years in England but it wasn't welcomed was it? The celts didn't say 'Come Romans and change our culture'. The Saxons didn't say 'Cmon Frenchies, we want you to spice up our culture a bit'. Endless wars were thought for the same reason of protecting your country and it's customs. I don't see Ethelred introducing a policy of multiculuralism do you? Now we are spineless and welcome foreign invaders. It's weird in the context of history. What is it called where you think your culture is superior to others? Facist? Bigot? I'm whatever the term is. I think our food, dress, music, sport, traditions are superior to asian ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpleronnie Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 I understand how culture has changed in the past few thousand years in England but it wasn't welcomed was it? The celts didn't say 'Come Romans and change our culture'. The Saxons didn't say 'Cmon Frenchies, we want you to spice up our culture a bit'. Endless wars were thought for the same reason of protecting your country and it's customs. I don't see Ethelred introducing a policy of multiculuralism do you? Now we are spineless and welcome foreign invaders. It's weird in the context of history. What is it called where you think your culture is superior to others? Facist? Bigot? I'm whatever the term is. I think our food, dress, music, sport, traditions are superior to asian ones. Don't we still have those things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amin Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 I really don't see the problem with being proud of your roots? Quite often, children support the team/country that their parents/family support, which is probably the case with many people who are english but support other nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amin Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 I understand how culture has changed in the past few thousand years in England but it wasn't welcomed was it? The celts didn't say 'Come Romans and change our culture'. The Saxons didn't say 'Cmon Frenchies, we want you to spice up our culture a bit'. Endless wars were thought for the same reason of protecting your country and it's customs. I don't see Ethelred introducing a policy of multiculuralism do you? Now we are spineless and welcome foreign invaders. It's weird in the context of history. What is it called where you think your culture is superior to others? Facist? Bigot? I'm whatever the term is. I think our food, dress, music, sport, traditions are superior to asian ones. Thats fine, but you can't complain when asian people think the same about their food, dress, music, sport and traditions. It's all a matter of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accessory Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 I understand how culture has changed in the past few thousand years in England but it wasn't welcomed was it? The celts didn't say 'Come Romans and change our culture'. The Saxons didn't say 'Cmon Frenchies, we want you to spice up our culture a bit'. Endless wars were thought for the same reason of protecting your country and it's customs. I don't see Ethelred introducing a policy of multiculuralism do you? Now we are spineless and welcome foreign invaders. It's weird in the context of history. What is it called where you think your culture is superior to others? Facist? Bigot? I'm whatever the term is. I think our food, dress, music, sport, traditions are superior to asian ones. Normally this kind of talk would be a concern. But as it's typed by the president of the Yann Kermorgant fan club, nothing more needs to be said.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accessory Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 Thats fine, but you can't complain when asian people think the same about their food, dress, music, sport and traditions. It's all a matter of opinion. But you're bringing logic into the equation. He is complaining, otherwise this thread would never have started. Logic is as relevant to the bigoted as colour is to the blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 4 September 2011 Share Posted 4 September 2011 How can someones 'dress' be superior to someone else's???? In my opinion, this is where the problem lies... you dont think "our" dress/sport etc is superior... you think "WE" are... and THAT..is racist or possibly xenophpobic, but i cant be arsed deciding which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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