The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Yes, you don't read people posts properly and then make stupid statements that are completely irrelevant to the point made.

Webbo's alright... John on the other hand - not sure who he's trying to convince with his posts. Maybe himself?

[Jimothy]

Had a conversation earlier with 6 or so brexiters talking about "taking back control" this and "soldiers who fought the Germans would be spinning in their grave" that. When I spoke up and asked if anybody could name any of the 3 institutions that comprise the EU not a single person could give me an answer but I did get challenged to answer my own question... When I named the Council of Europe, European Commission, and European Parliament the first 2 drew a load of blank stares and to the last one I got the rather wonderful response that it can't be a parliament if we don't vote for it. Cue more confused tangential shouting about immigration, Turkey, lost industry, and saving the NHS when I pointed out that actually we do.

From what was said and most strongly focused on by this group and another separate bunch I later eavesdropped as I quietly watched the end of the France match in a post-work stupor, I gather the key driving force behind the Brexit point of view (in these parts anyway) is a xenophobic distrust of any immigrants (removing the Poles and, rather confusingly, kicking the Filipinos out of the NHS were popular topics) or else a vague and naive expectancy that they will personally have a noticeably greater impact on the political process within our borders.

For the love of God there are decent reasons to be disillusioned with the EU, the common fisheries policy being probably the best imo, but I didn't hear any of them being cogently broached tonight. The worst thing is I can honestly see the Brexit vote winning and me having to put up with hearing all these cretins crow on about how they've achieved some kind of intellectual victory over the simpleton civilians of the other 27 member states meekly putting up with the EU's fascist control over their private lives.

Basically if you want out you're a thick racist? Good to hear a coherent argument for remain.

This one for starters where Carl was clearly talking about one experience but you got ultra defensive and made our he was tarring all brexiters as racists.

There was the one in conservatives thread the other week that I think it was Cardiff fox compaining about the style of leaflet from the conservatives and you got all ultra defensive and starting asking why he wasn't moaning about the labour one, which was probably because he didn't find that one poorly written and negative.

And don't get me started on the England Russia thread where apparently anyone who wasn't cheering owl face for throwing away a poorly achieved victory was an England team hating **** who cheers when they lose and probably wears Germany tops in public.

[Dodgy Bob]

Jackopopcorn.gif

[Strokes]

This one for starters where Carl was clearly talking about one experience but you got ultra defensive and made our he was tarring all brexiters as racists.

There was the one in conservatives thread the other week that I think it was Cardiff fox compaining about the style of leaflet from the conservatives and you got all ultra defensive and starting asking why he wasn't moaning about the labour one, which was probably because he didn't find that one poorly written and negative.

And don't get me started on the England Russia thread where apparently anyone who wasn't cheering owl face for throwing away a poorly achieved victory was an England team hating **** who cheers when they lose and probably wears Germany tops in public.

Is that a direct quote at the end their or are you exaggerating to make your point?

[johnny the fox]

Well for one thing EU elections are heavily party-centred - you vote for a party, which each compile a list of candidates in order. No one votes for a candidate at an European election. 

That is bullshit.. sorry..

[Jimothy]

Is that a direct quote at the end their or are you exaggerating to make your point?

That's was an exaggeration . The Germany top bit anyway.

[Webbo]

  

1)This one for starters where Carl was clearly talking about one experience but you got ultra defensive and made our he was tarring all brexiters as racists.

2)There was the one in conservatives thread the other that I think it was Cardiff fox compaining about the style of leaflet from the conservatives and you got all ultra defensive and starting asking why he wasn't moaning about the labour one, which was probably because he didn't find that one poorly written and negative.

3)And don't get me started on the England Russia thread where apparently anyone who wasn't cheering owl face for throwing away a poorly achieved victory was an England team hating **** who cheers when they lose and probably wears Germany tops in public.

1) That's your opinion.

2) Complaining about the conservatives when I was pointing out they all campaign negatively.

3) Matt was saying that Hogson was worse than McLaren, which is a ridiculous thing to say.

 

You don't like me, fair enough. Just put me on ignore because I'm not going to change and all your snide remarks are getting boring.

[Jimothy]

That is bullshit.. sorry..

Is it now?

[Strokes]

That's was an exaggeration . The Germany top bit anyway.

A tad hypocritical considering what you are pulling him up for

Come on, its normally fairly good natured in here facecloth, you not in the tennis thread now

[Jimothy]

1) That's your opinion.

2) Complaining about the conservatives when I was pointing out they all campaign negatively.

3) Matt was saying that Hogson was worse than McLaren, which is a ridiculous thing to say.

You don't like me, fair enough. Just put me on ignore because I'm not going to change and all your snide remarks are getting boring.

It might be my opinion but it's clearly shared by others. And it proved my point about you not reading his post, you just assumed he was talking about all brexiters.

He wasn't complaining about the conservatives, he was complaining about their leaflet. He didn't like the fact they were saying voting a certain way in Wales would let Corbyn in as PM rather than talking about policies and where you succeed where others fail. It was pretty clear he just didn't like the style of the leaflet, but again you failed to pick up on it.

And Matt might have been ott regarding McLaren but that was a small point of the argument. You still couldn't grasp it was possible to support England but be frustrated with our inability to play to our potential due to our poor manager.

Oh and as for ignoring posters, you have to be an idiot of kingfox proportion to get that from me. You normally a good poster, but when it comes to some discussions, especially politics you're so entrenched in your views you don't actually discuss anything you just jump on any criticism of you stance. So these aren't snide remarks it's genuine annoyance that anyone behaves like that.

[Webbo]

It might be my opinion but it's clearly shared by others. And it proved my point about you not reading his post, you just assumed he was talking about all brexiters.

He wasn't complaining about the conservatives, he was complaining about their leaflet. He didn't like the fact they were saying voting a certain way in Wales would let Corbyn in as PM rather than talking about policies and where you succeed where others fail. It was pretty clear he just didn't like the style of the leaflet, but again you failed to pick up on it.

And Matt might have been ott regarding McLaren but that was a small point of the argument. You still couldn't grasp it was possible to support England but be frustrated with our inability to play to our potential due to our poor manager.

I read it and interpreted it how I saw it.

 

Like I said, put me on ignore.

[Jimothy]

I read it and interpreted it how I saw it.

 

Like I said, put me on ignore.

You didn't read it, clearly, that's the point

[johnny the fox]

He said what does it have to do with UNDERSTANDING democracy. Learn to read. Is it epidemic amongst you brexiters? Webbo's just as bad. He's explaining how the eu isn't some unelected bunch out in a foreign land making up rules to ruin your life. I understand if that's too complex for you to understand

same difference.. I can always tell the argument is weak when the personal abuse starts...i'm sure he can speak for himself.. He actually is saying we get less than 10"% of a democracy..and most of us don't even know who are representatives are...if that is ok with you good luck...vote to stay in....but remember when it hits fan you had a chance reclaim what previous generations gave their lives for... remember there wouldn't even be a EUROPE if wasn't for this country... this project is doomed it is just a matter of time.

[Jimothy]

same difference.. I can always tell the argument is weak when the personal abuse starts...i'm sure he can speak for himself.. He actually is saying we get less than 10"% of a democracy..and most of us don't even know who are representatives are...if that is ok with you good luck...vote to stay in....but remember when it hits fan you had a chance reclaim what previous generations gave their lives for... remember there wouldn't even be a EUROPE if wasn't for this country... this project is doomed it is just a matter of time.

Why should we get more than 10%? Not much of a democracy if others don't get a say is it!

And check the card above he was spot on with the lay out, you vote for the party, not the candidate.

[johnny the fox]

Why should we get more than 10%? Not much of a democracy if others don't get a say is it!

And check the card above he was spot on with the lay out, you vote for the party, not the candidate.

Its a racket we cannot change..http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1159026.ece   ask southampton and  Dagenham...

[theessexfox]

That is bullshit.. sorry..

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html 

 

It's fine to be incorrect but simply ignoring the facts and telling me I'm wrong doesn't really make for constructive debate.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

same difference.. I can always tell the argument is weak when the personal abuse starts...i'm sure he can speak for himself.. He actually is saying we get less than 10"% of a democracy..and most of us don't even know who are representatives are...if that is ok with you good luck...vote to stay in....but remember when it hits fan you had a chance reclaim what previous generations gave their lives for... remember there wouldn't even be a EUROPE if wasn't for this country... this project is doomed it is just a matter of time.

Just this country? We had no allies at any stage?

[Jimothy]

Its a racket we cannot change..http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1159026.ece   ask southampton and  Dagenham...

Nothing changes if you're on the outside, @@Foxxed post about fishing quotas was a perfect example. You see this idea we can leave and still trade and get all the benefits is fantasy. We'll get no say at all on eu policy but will still be controlled by some laws and trade deals. Sitting on the outside looking in with no influence but all the problems.

Checked out that voting card you were so cock sure about earlier yet?

[theessexfox]

Its a racket we cannot change..http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1159026.ece   ask southampton and  Dagenham...

Just like when my Conservative MP voted against Labour policies under Blair and was outvoted? Does that mean the UK government is a racket that we, my constituency, cannot change? The fact that one member of a political union can be outvoted by a majority of other members of a political union is fundamentally democratic - you may disagree with the scale of political integration and having a European wide political system which seems very unaccountable to UK voters - that's a different issue. 

[Webbo]

Just like when my Conservative MP voted against Labour policies under Blair and was outvoted? Does that mean the UK government is a racket that we, my constituency, cannot change? The fact that one member of a political union can be outvoted by a majority of other members of a political union is fundamentally democratic - you may disagree with the scale of political integration and having a European wide political system which seems very unaccountable to UK voters - that's a different issue. 

If MEPs can't propose legislation nor repeal it how is it democratic?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Its a racket we cannot change..http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1159026.ece ask southampton and Dagenham...

Suprised you haven't picked out the other quite significant but within this story... That the rplant moved to Turkey, and that Ford received funding via the European Investment Bank for this (probably because Turkey is an as session country).

But it's also worth considering our own politicans would have had a significant say on this matter - so I suspect it was a case of our own directly accountable MP's that screwed Southampton & Dagenham over.

[Carl the Llama]

1) That's your opinion.

2) Complaining about the conservatives when I was pointing out they all campaign negatively.

3) Matt was saying that Hogson was worse than McLaren, which is a ridiculous thing to say.

 

You don't like me, fair enough. Just put me on ignore because I'm not going to change and all your snide remarks are getting boring.

Just so we're clear, it's not his opinion; it's a certifiable fact that I was despairing of the arrogance expressed on 2 separate occasions during the same day in my pokey little corner of the world by people who clearly have no idea what they're talking about while trying to make it clear in the same post and subsequent ones that I'm aware of people holding legitimate reasons to leave the EU based on their personal politics.  If you've witnessed any people making similarly ignorant remarks in favour of us remaining in the union I'll happily join you in despairing of voting adults holding their particular bigoted views too.

[Webbo]

Just so we're clear, it's not his opinion; it's a certifiable fact that I was despairing of the arrogance expressed on 2 separate occasions during the same day in my pokey little corner of the world by people who clearly have no idea what they're talking about while trying to make it clear in the same post and subsequent ones that I'm aware of people holding legitimate reasons to leave the EU based on their personal politics.  If you've witnessed any people making similarly ignorant remarks in favour of us remaining in the union I'll happily join you in despairing of voting adults holding their particular bigoted views too.

You see, little comments like that make me doubt your sincerity.

 

PS I read that at least twice.

[theessexfox]

If MEPs can't propose legislation nor repeal it how is it democratic?

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130619/LDM_BRI(2013)130619_REV2_EN.pdf

 

As it happens, the powers of MEPs to initiate legislation is increasing, though you're right, formal powers to introduce bills would have been a democratic reform I'd have been pushing for in the renegotiations had I been Mr Cameron.

 

"SUMMARY: The European Commission has a near monopoly on legislative initiative in the European Union (EU), with special initiative rights for other institutions applying only in certain specific cases. However, the European Parliament (EP), and the Council, have the right to invite the Commission to present legislative proposals. Whilst this 'indirect' initiative right does not create an obligation on the Commission to propose the legislation requested, the Treaty of Lisbon codified the Commission's obligation to provide reasons for any refusal to follow a parliamentary initiative. Many argue in this context that Parliament could take the Commission to the Court of Justice of the EU if it fails to justify a negative decision. Many see the EP's increasing participation in overall political planning, particularly through negotiations on the Commission's Work Programme (CWP), as a further channel for Parliament's influence on EU legislation. It is argued that the increased role of Parliament in the legislative procedure should have reduced the need for its Members to make use of legislative initiatives. Notwithstanding that, there is a trend towards greater use of formal parliamentary legislative initiatives to assert greater influence on the political process."

[Webbo]

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130619/LDM_BRI(2013)130619_REV2_EN.pdf

 

As it happens, the powers of MEPs to initiate legislation is increasing, though you're right, formal powers to introduce bills would have been a democratic reform I'd have been pushing for in the renegotiations had I been Mr Cameron.

 

"SUMMARY: The European Commission has a near monopoly on legislative initiative in the European Union (EU), with special initiative rights for other institutions applying only in certain specific cases. However, the European Parliament (EP), and the Council, have the right to invite the Commission to present legislative proposals. Whilst this 'indirect' initiative right does not create an obligation on the Commission to propose the legislation requested, the Treaty of Lisbon codified the Commission's obligation to provide reasons for any refusal to follow a parliamentary initiative. Many argue in this context that Parliament could take the Commission to the Court of Justice of the EU if it fails to justify a negative decision. Many see the EP's increasing participation in overall political planning, particularly through negotiations on the Commission's Work Programme (CWP), as a further channel for Parliament's influence on EU legislation. It is argued that the increased role of Parliament in the legislative procedure should have reduced the need for its Members to make use of legislative initiatives. Notwithstanding that, there is a trend towards greater use of formal parliamentary legislative initiatives to assert greater influence on the political process."

We'd all do a lot of things if we were PM but the rest of Europe showed during the negotiations they weren't interested in reform.