The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Strokes]

I may regret my vote now that Trump and Hopkins  are for out. But as they say you are buggered if you do and buggered if you don't.

Dennis Skinner wants out Ken, you can rest assured there is a left wing argument for leaving and sleep easy.

[Guest MattP]

The Sun statement in full.
 

WE are about to make the biggest ­political decision of our lives. The Sun urges everyone to vote LEAVE.

We must set ourselves free from dictatorial Brussels.

Throughout our 43-year membership of the European Union it has proved increasingly greedy, wasteful, bullying and breathtakingly incompetent in a crisis.

Next Thursday, at the ballot box, we can correct this huge and ­historic mistake.

It is our last chance. Because, be in no doubt, our future looks far bleaker if we stay in.

Outside the EU we can become richer, safer and free at long last to forge our own destiny — as America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and many other great democracies already do. And as we were the first to do centuries ago.

If we stay, Britain will be engulfed in a few short years by this relentlessly expanding ­German dominated federal state.

For all David Cameron’s witless assurances, our powers and values WILL be further eroded.

Staying in will be worse for immigration, worse for jobs, worse for wages and worse for our way of life.

Greece is bankrupt.

Italy is in danger of going the same way, with even more disastrous consequences.

In Spain, 45 per cent of those under 25 are out of work.

And numerous even poorer and worse-governed countries are now joining the EU.

To remain means being powerless to cut mass immigration which keeps wages low and puts catastrophic pressure on our schools, hospitals, roads and housing stock.

In every way, it is a bigger risk.

The Remain campaign, made up of the corporate establishment, arrogant europhiles and foreign banks, have set out to terrify us all about life outside the EU.

Their “Project Fear” strategy predicts mass unemployment, soaring interest rates and inflation, plummeting house prices, even world war.

The Treasury, Bank of England, the IMF and world leaders have all been wheeled out by Downing Street to add their grim warnings.

Nonsense! Years ago the same politicians and economists issued apocalyptic predictions about our fate if we didn’t join the euro.

Thank God we stopped that. The single currency’s stranglehold has since ruined the EU’s poorer nations and cast millions on the dole.

We are told we cannot be in the single market without accepting all the rules, free movement of people included.

If so, let’s leave it and, using our enormous clout as the world’s fifth biggest economy, strike great trade deals with the other 85 per cent of the world.

And pick and choose the best migrants from the whole world.

If we stay in the EU, as Cameron wants, we will finally give up any chance of controlling our population. Cameron admits it.

Vote Leave, and we will reassert our sovereignty — embracing a future as a self-governing, powerful nation envied by all.

We will re-establish the basic principle that we are governed by politicians we elect or eject every five years, not foreign bureaucrats.

The Sun has campaigned relentlessly against the ever-expanding superstate.

But the EU cannot reform.

Remain has conducted a deceitful campaign. It has been nasty, cynical, personally abusive and beneath the dignity of Britain.

Our country has a glorious history.

This is our chance to make Britain even greater, to recapture our democracy, to preserve the values and culture we are rightly proud of.

A VOTE FOR LEAVE IS A VOTE FOR A BETTER BRITAIN.

[Guest]

If you want to see what austerity really is I'd recommend you take a look what the European Commission, Troika and ECB all enforced on Greece through political muscle.

 

Look at what they did to Tsipras when they dragged him to the European Parliament to bully him into accepting conditions his voters refused.

 

 

Everyone should aspire to own their own home FIF, for a start it's the best pension you'll ever own, to say they shouldn't aim for this because there are benefits avaliable to renters is ridiculous, it became just as complex to own a house under the last Labour government as this one, but as you've been out the country for so long I'll forgive that oversight.

 

Your argument on house prices makes no sense, you've said yourself we have low interest rates ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/01/house-prices-rise-by-highest-rate-in-a-year-as-buyers-rush-to-av/) and house prices are rising to the highest level for ages, if people can't afford the mortgage and can't afford to sell now it's going to get worse whatever the situation.

 

And there we go at the end with more scaremongering, even if you believe the treasury about a recession it's still predicted by them to be the most shallow one in our history.

 

It's NOT the best pension. I always thought that but it is wrong. Wait until you are in the position and you can't sell the house yet your house taxes are higher than your pension (I'm still working and I'm not talking about myself before you jump in here) then get back to me. I'm certainly looking to sell up early now before being in that terrible dilemna.

 

And your argument about Cons and Labour means nothing to me. I don't care for either of them.

 

You are reinforcing the point I just made about house buying. I AGREE that it's only going to get worse for everyone. It was argued here that leaving will make the situation better. It won't.

 

How can I be scaremongering when I say that remain or leave will make no difference. It is those who are telling you lies that leaving is going to make things better in this regards who you should be questioning.

 

Edit: I missed the point about aspiring to own a home - what a Tory myth that is. Aspire to owning houses to rent to others and make money from them if you want but owning your own home is no better than renting. Less freedom, more responsibility, more worries, risk of losing it all...

 

Biggest myth of all time.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Are you joking Buce?! Even those in the remain camp have admitted as much, Lord Rose, one of the leading figures in remain has said wages will rise for the lowest paid if we exit the EU, George Osborne said a Brexit means house prices will drop (something only someone as out of touch as him could see as a bad thing).

How could those two things not be something to gain for the ordinary working man?

Need I point out that from the position of an individual a wage rise is great - but large scale wage increases can be counter productive for low earners if it clauses inflation to bump up as well, because they're buying power ultimately stays the same (or could get worse).

I ponder if this is how the cost of living crisis has come about, because although officially inflation has been low, if you look at some of the key items that have seen increases in cost, a lot of it has been essentials tat hit the lowest paid hardest - rent, energy, petrol and food (especially convenience food).

[Buce]

If he can't predict what awful things the tories will do how can you?

At the end of the day, Webbo, I trust my own instincts and observations more than any lying, self-serving politician.

Feel free to dig-up this post if we leave and what I forecast is wrong.

[Guest MattP]

Easily my favourite quote of the campaign so far from Labour MP John Mann

 

“It’s just like the general election. The polls say it’ll be fine, the leadership says we'll be fine but at every doorstep someone is there ready to tell us to f*** off.”

[Guest]

At the end of the day, Webbo, I trust my own instincts and observations more than any lying, self-serving politician.

Feel free to dig-up this post if we leave and what I forecast is wrong.

 

you should just believe the Tory politicians.

[Guest MattP]

Need I point out that from the position of an individual a wage rise is great - but large scale wage increases can be counter productive for low earners if it clauses inflation to bump up as well, because they're buying power ultimately stays the same (or could get worse).

I ponder if this is how the cost of living crisis has come about, because although officially inflation has been low, if you look at some of the key items that have seen increases in cost, a lot of it has been essentials tat hit the lowest paid hardest - rent, energy, petrol and food (especially convenience food).

 

I look forward to the left campaigning on the danger of large scale wage increases in 2020, somehow I don't think it will be such a problem then.

 

I think the cost of living crisis if far more complex than anything to do with this, but that's probably for another thread.

 

 

you should just believe the Tory politicians.

 

The Tory government are telling us to stay FIF, are you even following this referendum?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The idea that the Tories are going to wipe out workers rights, holiday pay, the NHS etc is so ridiculous it's not worth bothering with.

 

People seem to be getting that delirious they've forgotton political parties like the Conservatives survive to win elections. You don't do that if you engage with the above.

Not all in one go - but it will be a slow drip won't it?

The Royal Mail's half gone. What else were they looking at - the Land Registry I believe? Capita and the like is a growing presence in public service provision. The Free School programme is a form of privatisation in our schools.

[Guest]

 

The Tory government are telling us to stay FIF, are you even following this referendum?

 

My humour flies way over your head doesn't it?

 

Sorry.

[Buce]

If you want to see what austerity really is I'd recommend you take a look what the European Commission, Troika and ECB all enforced on Greece through political muscle.

Look at what they did to Tsipras when they dragged him to the European Parliament to bully him into accepting conditions his voters rejected..

You'll find no argument from me there, Matt.

I'm not trying convince anybody that the EU is a wonderful institution - there is much about it that I thoroughly dislike - and I am yet to decide which way I will vote, but the prospect of an unshackled right-wing govt greatly concerns me.

[Guest]

Not all in one go - but it will be a slow drip won't it?

The Royal Mail's half gone. What else were they looking at - the Land Registry I believe? Capita and the like is a growing presence in public service provision. The Free School programme is a form of privatisation in our schools.

 

Privatisation brings in money. Maybe the debt can be reduced temporarily. Just because it's a lie, it doesn't mean a high enough percentage of the population won't believe it.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Privatisation brings in money. Maybe the debt can be reduced temporarily. Just because it's a lie, it doesn't mean a high enough percentage of the population won't believe it.

It's short term gain, often at the expense of long term thinking.

Had we retained our electricity and water in public hands, the planning to go towards greener tech could have come sooner and overall costs for production / consumers would be much less, making our businesses much more competitive.

Anything in private hands has to be run at a margin - which instantly means it costs more. It would have at least been more platable if the government decided to sell off our electricity and water to co-operatives than to private hands.

[Guest]

It's short term gain, often at the expense of long term thinking.

Had we retained our electricity and water in public hands, the planning to go towards greener tech could have come sooner and overall costs for production / consumers would be much less, making our businesses much more competitive.

Anything in private hands has to be run at a margin - which instantly means it costs more. It would have at least been more platable if the government decided to sell off our electricity and water to co-operatives than to private hands.

 

I agree with you. Efficient state control of important industries is the best way to go.

 

Would work with homes too. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

List of privatisations here if anyone's interested!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_privatizations

[Webbo]

It's short term gain, often at the expense of long term thinking.

Had we retained our electricity and water in public hands, the planning to go towards greener tech could have come sooner and overall costs for production / consumers would be much less, making our businesses much more competitive.

Anything in private hands has to be run at a margin - which instantly means it costs more. It would have at least been more platable if the government decided to sell off our electricity and water to co-operatives than to private hands.

That's the theory, anyone who can remember the old nationalised industries will tell you they were expensive, overmanned monopolies with a like it or lump it attitude to service.

 

Water in particular needed massive investment in infrastructure that the govt didn't want to provide as there were no votes in it.

[Dodgy Bob]

It's NOT the best pension. I always thought that but it is wrong. Wait until you are in the position and you can't sell the house yet your house taxes are higher than your pension (I'm still working and I'm not talking about myself before you jump in here) then get back to me. I'm certainly looking to sell up early now before being in that terrible dilemna.

And your argument about Cons and Labour means nothing to me. I don't care for either of them.

You are reinforcing the point I just made about house buying. I AGREE that it's only going to get worse for everyone. It was argued here that leaving will make the situation better. It won't.

How can I be scaremongering when I say that remain or leave will make no difference. It is those who are telling you lies that leaving is going to make things better in this regards who you should be questioning.

Edit: I missed the point about aspiring to own a home - what a Tory myth that is. Aspire to owning houses to rent to others and make money from them if you want but owning your own home is no better than renting. Less freedom, more responsibility, more worries, risk of losing it all...

Biggest myth of all time.

What are "house taxes"?

[Fox92]

Only just seen the Sun's front page. Nothing I didn't expect from them.

[Thracian]

It's literally going to be a week now of calling everyone who wants to leave a bigot, xenophobic and racist isn't it?

To say remain is getting desperate is an understatement.

 

 

This is one of the most ridiculous aspects but it is fueled by people affectedly defending the race corner on the basis of pretended oppression/disadvantage with the real aim of contriving to take advantage and gain further influence and opportunity.

 

It's not a blanket reaction but an activist/interested-party reaction. Many incomers want to live, work, compete and progress on merit and want to be considered in exactly the same way as everyone else rather than as an incomer receiving specially contrived consideration.

 

But some want to preserve the perceived racial card because it serves their purpose in various ways. After all, once those "non-white-English-different" are seen simply as people (which most are by most people) then all those campaigning zealots lose their reason for being.    

 

I've asked many people randomly why they want an end to rampant immigration and most want a reduced, well-controlled "good for Britain" points-based system which more enables the country to cope with the impact of new arrivals without compromising the services and housing which have to absorb those extra people.

 

They want to get medical care as quickly and easily as used to be the case, they want their kids to go to a "not overcrowded" school of their choice, and they don't want to be continually overlooked for a council house because of a perceived desire to help incomers first (or the most needy as the authorities would say in promoting their own agendas).

 

Of course we have a duty to do our share of helping alleviate world problems. But our first duty is to properly look after our own problems and people in need, of which and of whom there are many. 

 

Money and expertise can do a lot (here or in people's own communities) but we shouldn't adversely impact on our own society in seeking to better the world for others. Yet that is clearly what's been happening and will increasingly happen in the future as independent figures clearly show, for the next 20 years at least.  

 

Why many ask has immigration been allowed to gather pace at all, one might ask.

 

Seems to me, in part at least, because it's a penance for Tony Blair's lies which helped result in the Iraq War and the obscene impact of that in terms of shattered lives and lnfrastructure. In other words, on top of Labour wanting to import votes, it's a guilty national and international conscience - because Tories went along with staging the Iraq war too.   .

 

Well two wrongs don' make a right and while I'd argue that Blair and friends owe the Iraqi's big time, I'm quite sure those of us who opposed both his lies, his wishes and his philosophies don't need to pay for that with yet more misguided politics that is having the effect of seriously undermining our own safety and wellbeing.  

 

For me, getting out of the EU and progressively back into control of our own aims and aspirations is the only decision that makes sense. 

[Dodgy Bob]

It's short term gain, often at the expense of long term thinking.

Had we retained our electricity and water in public hands, the planning to go towards greener tech could have come sooner and overall costs for production / consumers would be much less, making our businesses much more competitive.

Anything in private hands has to be run at a margin - which instantly means it costs more. It would have at least been more platable if the government decided to sell off our electricity and water to co-operatives than to private hands.

Then again a profit motive is very effective at improving efficiency. I certainly don't believe that implementation of "green tech" would have been achieved any faster by a government department than by a private sector motivated by profit. Those industries are heavily regulated anyway, if a government wants to push a green tech agenda they can do that through the regulator.

[Thracian]

To think the world of the working class man is going to be better because of a Brexit is quite funny.

 

"Leave the EU and our problems are solved"

 

Sorry just re-read and it was working man not working class. Will a Brexit get all those British unemployed into jobs too? If that was the case I could understand the argument - no dole scroungers, no benefit payments, higher percentage of tax payers ... Will a Brexit also get all those single mothers married too?

 

 

 

A lot of single mothers don't want to be married. Only one person gets child benefit for a child.

 

https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit/eligibility

 

A woman who has a husband who doesn't work (especially if they've effectively disqualified themselves from wanting to work or being able to work)  often feels she has an additional responsibility and one she could do without. And that's often what they effect. They either divorce or separate. An acquaintance of mine described it as "like having another kid at home".

 

You might think the benefits aren't sufficient without a partner's income but that's to ignore the reality. There's lots of ways a single mum can earn a bit of extra.        

[Guest MattP]

That's the theory, anyone who can remember the old nationalised industries will tell you they were expensive, overmanned monopolies with a like it or lump it attitude to service.

 

Six months to get a house phone installed, do people really think the public would put up with stuff like that in this day and age? Course they wouldn't.

[johnny the fox]

The Eu spends   £100 million every year moving the parliament between Brussels and strasbourg  every 6 months just for the reason of French pride ..that's OUR money being pissed away..    http://www.rferl.org/content/european_parliament_traveling_circus/24557376.html

[Harry - LCFC]

It's short term gain, often at the expense of long term thinking.

Had we retained our electricity and water in public hands, the planning to go towards greener tech could have come sooner and overall costs for production / consumers would be much less, making our businesses much more competitive.

Anything in private hands has to be run at a margin - which instantly means it costs more. It would have at least been more platable if the government decided to sell off our electricity and water to co-operatives than to private hands.

 

Government bureaucracies can waste huge amounts because they lack the strong incentives private companies have to cut costs. It's not at all clear that nationalising any industry would make it more efficient in production.

[Thracian]

I agree with you. Efficient state control of important industries is the best way to go.

 

Would work with homes too. 

 

 

 

Since when does state ownership = efficiency?