The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[RobHawk]

I am voting leave.

 

The best reason is for my reasoning is democracy. I can not abide how Greece has been treated mainly by Germany. I understand the economic issues that were mostly the Greeks fault, but if they stand a chance of paying what they already owe, then they need the Drachma back and they need to invest in their own industries. When they democratically voted to end austerity, they were basically were not allowed their own democracy and were made to comply with the Germans wishes to take another bail out package. This is not democracy! This is totalitarianism. I believe that the Germans are prospering very nicely out of other nations economic struggles.

 

What if the UK had similar troubles that we are unaware of? How would we be treated?

 

Secondly the best thing the uk ever did was have a referendum on the single currency and reject further integration with Europe. I speak every week with Spanish people and their own situation today is that they are economically worse off than when they had Pesetas, as they could control their own economy, and become more or less competitive as they saw fit. Its about control! 

 

For me Immigration is not a huge issue. What I am saying is, I do not think that it is a massive issue for me personally. 6% of the uk population are migrants. 6% of the NHS workers for example are migrants, so my reasoning is that the balance between migrants and the working percentages  are about correct. That said, I do understand that there are good people who are unemployed who really do want to work, but are not suitable candidates because they are British. I know this to be true! I used to work in recruitment, and there are companies in Leicester & Leicestershire who have almost a nationalistic approach to their recruitment. For example within a warehouse there will be supervisors who are Slovakian and they will hire Slovakians specifically because of the language barrier. This means that Poles, Czechs, Romanians, British etc... will be less likely to be offered a job! This goes on in our society!

 

I am aware of the pressures of the NHS, Housing, Education, Infrastructure... with less migration there would be less pressure on these things.

 

There is a lot of false information flying about from bot sides of the argument! The £350M figure is not representative of the money lost in total to the EU. The Net figure is more like £161M according to the BBC. £161M is still a staggering sum in my opinion. I am not too interested in other members bad deals, our is a bad deal!

 

Through austerity measures this country saved (IFS figures) £36 Bil Net contribution last year, the UK spends £42 Bil net contribution on the EU every year. so in theory we could have councils, NHS, schools, infrastructure police, anything that's been cut, back to the budgets before austerity, and have £8 Billion pounds spare for future investment or to help the 12% of UK companies who do trade with the EU, if the EU did decide to add a tariff after EU exit.

 

The EU is not a growing market, it is the same size now that it was in 2006!

 

Our economy is mostly service based. I believe that it is only 12% of our economy actually export goods that are effected by these free trade deals, David Cameron speaks of in every question he is asked, if it is connected or not, to the issue in hand. So 88% of UK exporters have to spend their money and time complying with regulations that they never need to deal with.

 

Our economy is based on a tertiary industries, service industries, the primary and secondary industry job sectors are not as large in our country. I am telling you this as for service industries you do not need trade agreements! So our economy within banking for example which is our major service industry, would not be effected by any EU trade deals, as they never have been. 

 

I listened to the radio last week, and there was a lively debate in Suffolk on BBC radio 5. An MEP was defending the EU on its fishing policy's, saying that the UK sold 9 million tonnes of fish into the EU last year. Sound impressive? Well not really as our fishing industry has been decimated by the EU allowing other fleets from Spain, France, Scandanavia. everywhere... to fish in our waters. It is believed that we now are only allowed to fish in 14% of the waters that we could before EU. There were over 700 boats in Folkstone fishing port, now only 17! This is not progress for the UK.

 

I am aware that the EU has spent money on moving industries away from the UK, to China, India, Ford to Turkey, but I don't know that facts on these.

 

The Remain campaign has to be devastated with how the TV debates have gone for them. Eddie Izzard on BBCQT was a disaster, just wanting to pick on Farage and make idiotic pointless petty comments. David Cameron took a hammering on Sky News with the public. When Farage was on the same Sky News he was again ambushed by the lady from the Huffington post, who wouldn't listen to any replies. This made Farage again be the victim of ignorant people who wont listen to the opposite point of view. Frank Field on BBCQT was excellent, and I am by no means a Labour or conservative for that matter, voter! I think that small things like these can turn the undecided to Leave.

 

I think people just want to hear some sense on important issues which actually effect them, arguments over monstrous figures, the electorate really do not see how it effects them.

 

I am happy to air my views, if you do not agree, that is your right, but please have a constructive conversation rather than insults, and I promise I will listen to your viewpoint.

 

Bluearmy!

eh?

[Alf Bentley]

eh?

 

 

Likewise, I don't recall any referendum over the Euro. Just Gordon Brown persuading Tony Blair not to join the Euro.

 

Good old Gordon, he didn't just save the world in 2008. He is to be credited with "the best thing the UK ever did" a few years earlier.... 

 

I can't get enough of this....

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

I am voting leave.

 

The best reason is for my reasoning is democracy.

 

 

About 20% of the electorate voted for the conservatives and no one voted for Boris to be PM.

 

How's that for democracy?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

If I wasn't a pensioner I may be inclined to accept that but without the triple lock the bus pass and other things I would struggle to get by on the pension. Right now as it is only the credit type my max per week is 144. It will increase in November to a full pension which is more. Forget how much or if it is means tested. There may be pensioners who have had decent careers and on a private pension but there are many more relying on just the SP. My brother a couple of years older and was a teacher and owned his own business  has said his savings will run out first or he will. After it does he will just be on the SP. He has predicted only a few years so he is making the most of his life while he can. Holidays etc. And he is very good with money and accounting, with a maths degree.. What is it like for those that are not?

I still think Cameron using the Brexit angle is a bit sneaky. But I have never trusted him so I am biased.

Ken - your situation is true of many, many people in this country and just goes to show how beholden you are to events outside of your direct control.

Now it could be the case that in event of a Brexit Cameron wouldn't be in charge long enough to make any significant changes, BUT you do have to consider if the economy was to suffer even in the short term and further balancing of the books were needed, where would the money come from?

Other departments have already been raided, so you'd have to consider if the country is at a pinch the two biggest expenditure budgets of pensions and the NHS would come under closer scrutiny - or we're looking at tax increases, and the biggest problem for governments in doing this at the top end of the pay scale is it takes longer for receipts to filter through to the exchequer.

Let's face it, whatever decision we come out with, life will be a rocky road - but an exit, which could trigger deeper turmoil EU wide, hmmmm.

[johnny the fox]

Our European allies had been overrun.

Like it or not, we have the Yanks to thank.

The yanks only got involved after pearl harbour even though churchill was begging them to get in.. The USA thinks about the USA first and last..

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The yanks only got involved after pearl harbour even though churchill was begging them to get in.. The USA thinks about the USA first and last..

One could argue it was tactical mistakes that resulted in the tide turning - from all of the Axis.

[johnny the fox]

I also know people who have taken in the immigration side of things. They tend to be older people who remember things before the EU. I also know people who won't vote out for fear of being branded a racist.It is easy for a person to assume that because of the way the media covers immigration. I do not want to name any specific paper but they tend to lead with figures for immigrants as headline shockers. Suffice to to say I rarely agree with their political stance. We all know the type 'did you see that in the xxxx disgusting, I said it would happen years ago.'

Luckily the majority on here are not like that even the ones I disagree with. Even Cameron's own party members are saying he is scaremongering over pensions. They it was pledged in the manifesto that they would be protected. Is Cameron admitting now that he will break those promises if we leave? It just seems something to blame for when policies start to hit more people. I wonder if deep down he is hoping for out.

My reason for voting out is simply that although I agree in principle with the idea of the EU I think it is failing and needs a complete rethink. How I do not know. It is too complex for little ol me.

I'm NOT voting first and foremost against Europe..I'm voting for Britain... if its good enough for 90% of the world its good enough for us! 

[johnny the fox]

Were you even alive in 1939?

 

Why don't you quote the napoleonic wars or the Prussian conflicts.

Your inane stupidity doesn't reflect well on you....  Who was it who said    " people who failed to learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them"  you would do well to understand this,   then read a few books.....this is what  I put your ignorance down to...... a modern education...

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I knew it wouldn't be too long before this quote would come back to bite you!

same difference.. I can always tell the argument is weak when the personal abuse starts...i'm sure he can speak for himself.. He actually is saying we get less than 10"% of a democracy..and most of us don't even know who are representatives are...if that is ok with you good luck...vote to stay in....but remember when it hits fan you had a chance reclaim what previous generations gave their lives for... remember there wouldn't even be a EUROPE if wasn't for this country... this project is doomed it is just a matter of time.

  

Care to rephrase your post below now?

Your inane stupidity doesn't reflect well on you....  Who was it who said    " people who failed to learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them"  you would do well to understand this,   then read a few books.....this is what  I put your ignorance down to...... a modern education...

[Dr The Singh]

I was speaking to some family in Italy and Austria, there is a disturbing trend of the far right ever increasing, regardless of whether were in the EU, it's going to get worse, infact my family members reckon the EU is going to split, these groups and the people of the nations want out also!!

[johnny the fox]

I knew it wouldn't be too long before this quote would come back to bite you!

  

Care to rephrase your post below now?

 

sorry, I really don't know what point you are trying to make...

[Buce]

I knew it wouldn't be too long before th quote would come back to bite you!

Care to rephrase your post below now?

I was thinking about this when MattP was praising the standard of debate in this thread.

There's always one.

[johnny the fox]

I was speaking to some family in Italy and Austria, there is a disturbing trend of the far right ever increasing, regardless of whether were in the EU, it's going to get worse, infact my family members reckon the EU is going to split, these groups and the people of the nations want out also!!

One sure way to get an upsurge in extremist groups is to vote to stay in.... when peoples national sovereignty is diluted or partly taken away they will react .. the further away the decisions are from the citizens who are on the receiving end of them, the more extreme will be the reaction..   unfortunately it is only usually regained with the shedding of blood.. . because empire / union never gives it back willingly....

[johnny the fox]

I was thinking about this when MattP was praising the standard of debate in this thread.

There's always one.

Wtf you are on about I really don't know...  

[kingcarr21]

sorry, I really don't know what point you are trying to make...

You said the argument is weak when the personal abuse starts.

 

Then your other post is giving out personal abuse.

[Buce]

Wtf you are on about I really don't know...

No surprises there.

[johnny the fox]

No surprises there.

look mate, cut the snide pointless comments it achieves fook all. and sheds light on less..   just vote.. and live with outcome. lets leave it at that ok?  that's what I will doing.

[johnny the fox]

No surprises there.

 

You said the argument is weak when the personal abuse starts.

 

Then your other post is giving out personal abuse.

 

well mate my advice is vote to stay in ..and enjoy... but vote....  

[Guest MattP]

Blimey.

Two ICM polls released in last hour have leave ahead by 5 and 6 points.

[Bettsj2]

Blimey.

Two ICM polls released in last hour have leave ahead by 5 and 6 points.

I think people who were on the fence are leaning towards leave. Not because of the strength of the leave campaign but more because of the obvious lies of the remain one.

How they can expect anyone to really believe anything they say when more and more 'dangers' are revealed.

The latest pension scare tactic is so transparent its untrue. If all of this is true, then it should have all been laid out the second the Tories won the General Election. Cameron promised a referendum so should have had all the eventualities mapped out by his team. Instead, they just seem to keep throwing more scare shit at the wall hoping it will stick.

I'm firmly for staying in but the longer it goes on, I'm convinced we're going to leave.

[Carl the Llama]

I've no problem with you Carl. We've argued before, I don't bare a grudge. I didn't think you were targeting me especially.

Nor do I, we have, and nor do I again (usually). Glad you didn't take it personally after all. x

[davieG]

I think people who were on the fence are leaning towards leave. Not because of the strength of the leave campaign but more because of the obvious lies of the remain one.

How they can expect anyone to really believe anything they say when more and more 'dangers' are revealed.

The latest pension scare tactic is so transparent its untrue. If all of this is true, then it should have all been laid out the second the Tories won the General Election. Cameron promised a referendum so should have had all the eventualities mapped out by his team. Instead, they just seem to keep throwing more scare shit at the wall hoping it will stick.

I'm firmly for staying in but the longer it goes on, I'm convinced we're going to leave.

Better still why even put a referendum on the table if the consequences of leaving are so horrendous?

[johnny the fox]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/brexit-supporters-leave-vote-right?CMP=share_btn_tw  What the left wing liberal elite REALLY think of us .....

[apple987]

The sun newspaper has backed brexit in tomorrows paper. What I don't get is why a Murdoch owned paper is going for brexit and sky news (murdoch) is so biased towards remain. Confusing.

Actually just Googled it and Murdoch doesn't actually own sky. I thought he did

[bovril]

The Sun never goes down on the British Empire...