johnny the fox Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 Just one question about this whole debate I haven't seen asked nor answered. Who do you think these "EU bureaucrats" are? Asked and answered,,,,
johnny the fox Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 10% of MEP's are British, for a start. WOW.. you might be happy with a 10% democracy I ain't .. here you go mate... read it and weep..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_institutions_of_the_European_Union all household names...
Buce Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 WOW.. you might be happy with a 10% democracy I ain't .. here you go mate... read it and weep..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_institutions_of_the_European_Union all household names... It's not substantially different in our 'democracy'. We are governed by a govt. endorsed by circa 20% of the electorate.
johnny the fox Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 It's not substantially different in our 'democracy'. We are governed by a govt. endorsed by circa 20% of the electorate. I totally agree .. but two wrongs don't make a right.. the whole system needs an enema.. i suggest you read the hitchens article I posted...
Alf Bentley Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 9.75% 9.72% (73/751) ....but I could only vote for 0.66% of MEPs in the E. Midlands (5/751) ....however, this compares favourably with Westminster! I could only vote for 0.15% of Westminster MPs (1/650)
Strokes Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 9.72% (73/751) ....but I could only vote for 0.66% of MEPs in the E. Midlands (5/751) ....however, this compares favourably with Westminster! I could only vote for 0.15% of Westminster MPs (1/650) and yet you still only got one, unless you voted Tory or UKIP Alf.
Alf Bentley Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 and yet you still only got one, unless you voted Tory or UKIP Alf. Only because I switched to Labour at the last moment. If I'd voted Green, as planned, I'd have got none (unless you count the one in Brighton). Complicated business, democracy....
pleatout Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 I totally agree .. but two wrongs don't make a right.. the whole system needs an enema.. i suggest you read the hitchens article I posted... ah, now you have it. But we dont get 3 choices do we? 1) Stay In 2) Leave 3) Stay in, subject to reform There always seems to me to be this belief that the whole of europe bar the English are happy with the EU and that isnt the case.
Strokes Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 ah, now you have it. But we dont get 3 choices do we? 1) Stay In 2) Leave 3) Stay in, subject to reform There always seems to me to be this belief that the whole of europe bar the English are happy with the EU and that isnt the case. No the Dutch and the Czechs want out as well. They will be watching us closely.The choices are, remain having renegotiated. Or leave. I know my choice.
Rincewind Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 3 choices may have been better but didn't Cameron say he had negotiated a deal regarding money we owed and we still payed it anyway. I would be skeptical of it because it would mean having to rely on politicians being completely honest with us.
johnny the fox Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 ah, now you have it. But we dont get 3 choices do we? 1) Stay In 2) Leave 3) Stay in, subject to reform There always seems to me to be this belief that the whole of europe bar the English are happy with the EU and that isnt the case. point is we have far more chance of fixing our broken system than the monolith that is the EU... got to start somewhere,
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 ah, now you have it. But we dont get 3 choices do we? 1) Stay In 2) Leave 3) Stay in, subject to reform There always seems to me to be this belief that the whole of europe bar the English are happy with the EU and that isnt the case. I would suggest 1 & 3 are effectively the same... If we stay in and the EU doesn't reform, it will kill itself anyway (and there's plenty of country leaders and EU top brass that know this).
Webbo Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 I would suggest 1 & 3 are effectively the same... If we stay in and the EU doesn't reform, it will kill itself anyway (and there's plenty of country leaders and EU top brass that know this). Then why don't they reform?
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 Then why don't they reform? Reform of any kind is a slow process - but from what I've seen / heard there is a clear shift in direction, for example the appetite of ever closer union is dwindling and I wouldn't be surprised if we see that reflected in the next presidential appointments.
Webbo Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 Reform of any kind is a slow process - but from what I've seen / heard there is a clear shift in direction, for example the appetite of ever closer union is dwindling and I wouldn't be surprised if we see that reflected in the next presidential appointments. And therein lies the problem.
pleatout Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 WOW.. you might be happy with a 10% democracy I ain't .. here you go mate... read it and weep..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_institutions_of_the_European_Union all household names... I dont think you understand democracy. That's how it works. If the UK had 100% of the votes and decisions, it wouldn't be democratic. Now if you're argument is that the current system isn't fair, representative or doesn't function well, then that is a fair point that I am willing to discuss and may even concede. But the leave supporters claiming that "they" make all the decisions and "we" have no say is wrong and frankly, like the weekly cost, a lie.
pleatout Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 point is we have far more chance of fixing our broken system than the monolith that is the EU... got to start somewhere, What broken system? You can wear the tinfoil hat and head for the bunkers if you like but there is very little wrong with "the system" that telling a few right wing newspapers to shut up and a government that thinks that taking money out of ordinary peoples pockets is the best way to control them. Austerity used to be called monetarism when I was a lad. Same effect, make people poor for no reason. Make them think we are up the creek and in debt - "our childrens children will be paying for this" yep that's how it works. Tony Blair made the last payment to the yanks, in 2006, for lease lend 60 odd years later. BTW we've started paying off "1927 consols" loans set up in 1927 by Churchill to refinance debts from the early 1800s. Anyway the topic is way over there <------------------ and I seem to be way over here----------------->.
Jimothy Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 I dont think you understand democracy. That's how it works. If the UK had 100% of the votes and decisions, it wouldn't be democratic. Now if you're argument is that the current system isn't fair, representative or doesn't function well, then that is a fair point that I am willing to discuss and may even concede. But the leave supporters claiming that "they" make all the decisions and "we" have no say is wrong and frankly, like the weekly cost, a lie. Spot on. A woman on QT on Thursday, making a different point say "We are Brussels". When people moan about decisions from Brussels, the U.K. is part of that, and people we elect are part of that.
Foxxed Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 When we say there's 10% of the EU population which is British... Are we thinking 90% say one thing and then 10% say the other? That we want to go one way, but we are cruelly slapped back to the other? Do we think the British are now incapable of aligning shared goals... doing you know... politics?
Foxxed Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 No the Dutch and the Czechs want out as well. They will be watching us closely. All of them?
Strokes Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 When we say there's 10% of the EU population which is British... Are we thinking 90% say one thing and then 10% say the other? That we want to go one way, but we are cruelly slapped back to the other? Do we think the British are now incapable of aligning shared goals... doing you know... politics? What are these shared goals, that can't be achieved outside of a political union?
Guest Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 WOW.. you might be happy with a 10% democracy I ain't .. here you go mate... read it and weep..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_institutions_of_the_European_Union all household names... You know you are a european whether you are in or out of the EU don't you? You should try and get your city to opt out of the UK. You'd have even more control then, wouldn't you?
Foxxed Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 What are these shared goals, that can't be achieved outside of a political union? "Hey, the EU? Ah, great. We'd like to change how the EU member states fish in the English Channel, North Sea etc." "Ah, long time to speak! Good to hear from you again! You well? Good. Well... thing is... we voted on that last month... Kind of a done deal now..." "Ah, right, right. See, we really need you to change it a bit..." "I feel you for you, I really do...." "Look, I tried to be nice, you're fishing far too much. We'll have to...." "What? What will you do the UK? Limit your trade with us? Cool. Do that. We'll do the same. See who suffers the most. Also, the tax you have to pay to trade with us? That might increase. Not sure. Enjoy your tea!"
Strokes Posted 12 June 2016 Posted 12 June 2016 "Hey, the EU? Ah, great. We'd like to change how the EU member states fish in the English Channel, North Sea etc." "Ah, long time to speak! Good to hear from you again! You well? Good. Well... thing is... we voted on that last month... Kind of a done deal now..." "Ah, right, right. See, we really need you to change it a bit..." "I feel you for you, I really do...." "Look, I tried to be nice, you're fishing far too much. We'll have to...." "What? What will you do the UK? Limit your trade with us? Cool. Do that. We'll do the same. See who suffers the most. Also, the tax you have to pay to trade with us? That might increase. Not sure. Enjoy your tea!"
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.