The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[johnny the fox]

He made pro Turkey joining the EU comments in 2010, when in Ankara - diplomacy possibly? Equally, it doesn't mean that Turkey joining the EU is going to happen anytime soon. Do you have any idea how long ago the current application from Turkey was made?

yeah right.. keep believing the remain spin... The man forgets the lies he tells and then has to think up an excuse for it when it comes back to bite him... "no ifs buts or maybes"    "I will get immigration down to the tens of thousands"  " If I don't you can kick me out" ....  I for one intend to make him stick to his promise ..

[Foxxed]

Another thing that has annoyed me with the build up of this referendum is that neither side has really connected with the voters because there seems to be a reluctance to accept that there's positives to leaving and staying - it's been cast as black or white. Cameron in particular needed/needs to illustrate what will happen in the event of leaving the EU.

 

Wookie, man. If they start accepting their opponents have valid points, then their whole fascade will be destroyed!

 

Davey, Dave, Dave, Dave, Dave worked in PR. And he knows the cornerstone to a good campaign is repeating a message until the audience can repeat it themselves. Ain't no room for reasoned opinions! Fair play to Boris though, he's found out a funny haircut and some banter wins votes too.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

yeah right.. keep believing the remain spin... The man forgets the lies he tells and then has to think up an excuse for it when it comes back to bite him... "no ifs buts or maybes"    "I will get immigration down to the tens of thousands"  " If I don't you can kick me out" ....  I for one intend to make him stick to his promise ..

Given net migration has been above 100,000 for years (since 2002 at least and it should be noted that the proportion of that immigration is actually heavily more weighted towards non-EU immigration), perhaps you need to allow for some more time to pass before a governments full policies take effect, especially as it's still earlier into this governments term - as much I hate trying to defend a Conservative government.

It may also be worth considering - the wording from the Leave side has moved more towards 'control' not necessarily 'reduce'. Can you be sure those that will implement policy moving forward after an exit share the same vision as yourself?

[Foxxed]

The whole immigration thing is annoying too. There is a point where immigration can be damaging. But what is that point? And what are the actual stats, as opposed to the selected stats quoted by people trying desperately to back their point?

 

And my friends who grew up with me, whose parents can be classify as immigrants. Their parents, for a large part, work hard and provide an essential service to the public in conditions I personally would not enjoy. I guess--except for the most bigoted--they would be classified as 'good'. And so what about the rest, perhaps the ones who aren't in the same kind of job? They're 'immigrants' too.

 

It seems a stupid argument all round, with little gained. I'd much prefer if we focused on--as one indication at least--strain and benefit regarding the Royal Infirmary, and then work backwards to national policy. But no: it's framed as some kind of viking invasion in a bad 70s film.

[johnny the fox]

Given net migration has been above 100,000 for years (since 2002 at least and it should be noted that the proportion of that immigration is actually heavily more weighted towards non-EU immigration), perhaps you need to allow for some more time to pass before a governments full policies take effect, especially as it's still earlier into this governments term - as much I hate trying to defend a Conservative government.

It may also be worth considering - the wording from the Leave side has moved more towards 'control' not necessarily 'reduce'. Can you be sure those that will implement policy moving forward after an exit share the same vision as yourself?

Hate defending the conservatives? sounds like you should be in cameron's spin gang.. As I said, he says one thing to one audience then the opposite to another..he has no core beliefs other than being in office ..just like Blair , this is why they run out of road in the end .. I don't believe this defeatist attitude that millions of people from all over the world with different cultures and attitudes and religions can and will come here no matter what WE THE PEOPLE WANT ...its unsustainable and deep down we all know it.... Our political masters will not suffer the consequences of  this folly...they will be rich enough to isolate themselves from the fallout... just to say  its an inevitable act of nature or the laws of the free market is bullshit.....WE should say what kind a nation WE are...nobody else.

[leicsmac]

I'd also put very good money on the fact this didn't even happen, amazing how so many remainers seem to manage to find a group of idiots all supporting Brexit and they turn out to be complete morons.

 

It's amazing how this group of uneducated idiots who didn't even know what the EU Commission was managed to also know the NHS has a huge percentage of Filipinos, something very few people who don't take a deep interest in politics actually know.

 

To say I smell bullshit is an understatement.

 

So because you don't like the content of the anecdote and what it implies about a subset of Brexiteers, it's likely a fabrication?

[Guest Bob Hazels shorts]

My opinion / choice would be different if we had a strong government, despite me voting for them they are pretty pathetic and not helped by Dave serving his notice.

 

The alternative ie Labour party offers little else particularly in the leader.

 

We are entering a very grey time in world politics, only Putin regardless of corruption seems to have any balls.

 

With Obama also working his notice and enjoying a laugh rather than governing and a choice of two of the worst presidential candidates of all time about to jump in his shoes, worrying times over the pond.

 

Not a great time to be isolated IMO. The EU has many faults and provides a gravy train to many. Needs a massive kick up the arse, stay by one vote would be ideal

[johnny the fox]

My opinion / choice would be different if we had a strong government, despite me voting for them they are pretty pathetic and not helped by Dave serving his notice.

 

The alternative ie Labour party offers little else particularly in the leader.

 

We are entering a very grey time in world politics, only Putin regardless of corruption seems to have any balls.

 

With Obama also working his notice and enjoying a laugh rather than governing and a choice of two of the worst presidential candidates of all time about to jump in his shoes, worrying times over the pond.

 

Not a great time to be isolated IMO. The EU has many faults and provides a gravy train to many. Needs a massive kick up the arse, stay by one vote would be ideal

And who said....." The only thing to fear is fear itself " ....

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Hate defending the conservatives? sounds like you should be in cameron's spin gang.. As I said, he says one thing to one audience then the opposite to another..he has no core beliefs other than being in office ..just like Blair , this is why they run out of road in the end .. I don't believe this defeatist attitude that millions of people from all over the world with different cultures and attitudes and religions can and will come here no matter what WE THE PEOPLE WANT ...its unsustainable and deep down we all know it.... Our political masters will not suffer the consequences of this this folly...they will be rich enough to isolate themselves from the fallout... just to say  its an inevitable act of nature or the laws of the free market is bullshit.....WE should say what kind a nation WE are...nobody else.

If you are basing your position on this being an "anti-establishment" vote and that the people will be putting it to them by voting out, you could be disapointed - because if such a thing is, they'll be well insulated via either result. Why if they controlled everything would they leave such a thing to chance? Wouldn't this just be a further example of Bread and Circuses and giving people the illusion they have power? What happens if Cameron goes - someone else is put in his place and they become the establishment will they not?

What is one of the alternatives being spouted post Brexit? It's unilateral free trade, no tariffs for anyone importing anything, which does have its positives, but on the flip side it takes away any element of protectionism for British jobs. It would make it much easier for big industries to move their operations outside of the UK to areas where employment is much, much, cheaper and then import the goods in - bit like what James Dyson did with his vacuum cleaner manufacturing I believe?

The other thing to consider is that when markets are left completely free is that they tend to run wild and out of control. Big figures on the leave side vouch for this free market style economy, they'd be quite happy to get rid of all regulation and let the market decide what it needed...

... So just beware which side of the establishment you vote for!

[bovril]

And who said....." The only thing to fear is fear itself " ....

 

And Turks.

[johnny the fox]

If you are basing your position on this being an "anti-establishment" vote and that the people will be putting it to them by voting out, you could be disapointed - because if such a thing is, they'll be well insulated via either result. Why if they controlled everything would they leave such a thing to chance? Wouldn't this just be a further example of Bread and Circuses and giving people the illusion they have power? What happens if Cameron goes - someone else is put in his place and they become the establishment will they not?

What is one of the alternatives being spouted post Brexit? It's unilateral free trade, no tariffs for anyone importing anything, which does have its positives, but on the flip side it takes away any element of protectionism for British jobs. It would make it much easier for big industries to move their operations outside of the UK to areas where employment is much, much, cheaper and then import the goods in - bit like what James Dyson did with his vacuum cleaner manufacturing I believe?

The other thing to consider is that when markets are left completely free is that they tend to run wild and out of control. Big figures on the leave side vouch for this free market style economy, they'd be quite happy to get rid of all regulation and let the market decide what it needed...

... So just beware which side of the establishment you vote for!

You still miss the point ..this is not a anti establishment vote..its a pro people , pro democracy vote... Cameron as always, gave us a referendum to keep his party together without thinking about the outcome..  To say being in the EU protects uk jobs is laughable...ask the fishing industry in the north east.. ask the steel workers in wales....... hold on a minute ..were we not in the EU when Dyson moved his operation abroad?  how the fook did the EU help there? It could be argued he moved abroad because of EU regulations, and might bring it back if we pull out...who knows?   and who's saying the market should run totally free? not me...   in 2008 when the banking system crashed were was the EU then? what fookin help was it? stop listening the the pro ney sayer propaganda.. its negative bullshit...have more faith in our nation..    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckq5lGnUgAABBXY.jpg

[Carl the Llama]

I'd also put very good money on the fact this didn't even happen, amazing how so many remainers seem to manage to find a group of idiots all supporting Brexit and they turn out to be complete morons.

It's amazing how this group of uneducated idiots who didn't even know what the EU Commission was managed to also know the NHS has a huge percentage of Filipinos, something very few people who don't take a deep interest in politics actually know.

To say I smell bullshit is an understatement.

Name your price, I'll happily take that bet.

Clearly the particular individuals in question's "deep interest in politics" stretches just far enough to know that the NHS is propped up by foreign workers but not quite far enough to know that's because they're willing to fill the void left by a lack of qualified professionals as homemade doctors get alienated by the UK government and leave for private healthcare - or other countries entirely - as soon as their mandatory NHS service is up, nor that the foreigners in the service who will be 'kicked out' so to speak tend to originate from the Iberian peninsula while Filipino workers' rights have nothing to do with the argument.

[Strokes]

Name your price, I'll happily take that bet.

Clearly the particular individuals in question's "deep interest in politics" stretches just far enough to know that the NHS is propped up by foreign workers but not quite far enough to know that's because they're willing to fill the void left by a lack of qualified professionals as homemade doctors get alienated by the UK government and leave for private healthcare - or other countries entirely - as soon as their mandatory NHS service is up, nor that the foreigners in the service who will be 'kicked out' so to speak tend to originate from the Iberian peninsula while Filipino workers' rights have nothing to do with the argument.

Its fair to say that a fair share of patients are not UK nationals either.

[Foxxed]

Its fair to say that a fair share of patients are not UK nationals either.

 

True.

 

We can't--due to our membership--deny treatment to EU citizens. And since we're currently a member, we ourselves can't be denied healthcare in Spain or wherever. [1]

 

Normally, the EU country would receive money for treatment, from the patient's host country.

 

But we decided in the 1940s our NHS would be free to all. Even if we never applied to join the EU, there would still be Germans, Frenchmen, Danes, Austrians, Italians, Romanians freely using the NHS. And if we leave, it will be the same.

 

If we changed the NHS to charge non UK citizens, we'd start receiving money, regardless of whether we Bremain or Brexit.

 

[1] http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/unplanned-healthcare/payments-reimbursements/index_en.htm

[Strokes]

True.

 

We can't--due to our membership--deny treatment to EU citizens. And since we're currently a member, we ourselves can't be denied healthcare in Spain or wherever. [1]

 

Normally, the EU country would receive money for treatment, from the patient's host country.

 

But we decided in the 1940s our NHS would be free to all. Even if we never applied to join the EU, there would still be Germans, Frenchmen, Danes, Austrians, Italians, Romanians freely using the NHS. And if we leave, it will be the same.

 

If we changed the NHS to charge non UK citizens, we'd start receiving money, regardless of whether we Bremain or Brexit.

 

[1] http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/unplanned-healthcare/payments-reimbursements/index_en.htm

I'm not suggesting we deny care, just that some of the needed migrants, are to cater for the migrants.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Its fair to say that a fair share of patients are not UK nationals either.

Just to paint some context - rough population figures I've taken from some ONS statistics I've located online;

UK national population = 55 million

Non UK national population = 8 million* (13%)

*Of which 3 million are from EU countries (5%)

In terms of the NHS, A&E admissions over 15/16 were just short of 23 million. It was also suggested that the NHS overall treats around 1 million patients every 36 hours.

So in short - it would be an amazingly strange feat if immigrants did somehow make up the bigger proportion of users of the NHS, they'd have to be there consistently on a rota basis it seems.

[Strokes]

Just to paint some context - rough population figures I've taken from some ONS statistics I've located online;

UK national population = 55 million

Non UK national population = 8 million* (13%)

*Of which 3 million are from EU countries (5%)

In terms of the NHS, A&E admissions over 15/16 were just short of 23 million. It was also suggested that the NHS overall treats around 1 million patients every 36 hours.

So in short - it would be an amazingly strange feat if immigrants did somehow make up the bigger proportion of users of the NHS, they'd have to be there consistently on a rota basis it seems.

I said that immigrants were a fair proportion of hospital admissions. So adding to the need of immigrant staff. If immigration slowed, stopped, the need for extra NHS staff would also slow.

[Dr The Singh]

I said that immigrants were a fair proportion of hospital admissions. So adding to the need of immigrant staff. If immigration slowed, stopped, the need for extra NHS staff would also slow.

True!! But this country will always require skilled staff from abroad

[johnny the fox]

True!! But this country will always require skilled staff from abroad

problem is as it stands it is harder for a doctor from India to get into britain than a polish fruit picker...

[Carl the Llama]

Basically if you want out you're a thick racist? Good to hear a coherent argument for remain.

Coming back to this since I've not really addressed this response:  No.  That should be clear from the final paragraph that you quoted.  It is however very upsetting that I was able to spend about half an hour debating this with people who demonstrated a fervour for leaving the EU without being able to actually discuss what about the framework of its component institutions they disagree with, simply parroting misinformation which they're somehow convinced proves their point having clearly made no effort to scrape beneath the surface nor willing to listen to myself and the 2 other people present who were trying to correct them, happy that false information has confirmed their innate bias that Britain is great and "they just want what we've got" (just to clarify that is an actual quote).  That a few of these people are descendent from immigrant families made it more frustrating.  Then overhearing a group of middle-aged, middle class people discuss basically the same rubbish over their wine nightcap made it really hit home just how many people are making this major decision on the back of some popcorn statements.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I said that immigrants were a fair proportion of hospital admissions. So adding to the need of immigrant staff. If immigration slowed, stopped, the need for extra NHS staff would also slow.

https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/economics/papers/2015/giunt_nic_silva2015.pdf

Well I question whether that's strictly true or has just been taken from anidotal evidence by individuals perceiving this to be the case. The above is a detailed study looking at data up to 2012 on the matter and doesn't find any evidence that immigrants are using the NHS more proportionally.

And if we think about this for a moment - that position would make sense if you consider;

1.) By and large immigrants are of working age, a demographic of the population less likely to need health care at that point.

2.) Our native population has an imbalance towards older people - so naturally, this would put more demands on the service, both in terms of time and cost.

3.) Immigrants only make up 13% of the population - so to clause a major drain, a much higher proportion of that population would need to be using the service, more often - which just doesn't ring true. The touted claim, doesn't really pass the 'does it make sense test'.

Now the study above went into much more forensic detail, consider factors such as a larger cluster of immigrants in a particular area, but again the results didn't bare out the common misconception.

And it's worth considering what has been going on with government policy on the NHS in the most recent years, including a major re-organisation, which is going to have an impact on the service / waiting times.

I also believe there's been a change in the way GP appointments are targeted, which is why you never get offered an appointment within a week anymore, but are quite able to get an emergency one within a couple of hours.

[Strokes]

https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/economics/papers/2015/giunt_nic_silva2015.pdf

Well I question whether that's strictly true or has just been taken from anidotal evidence by individuals perceiving this to be the case. The above is a detailed study looking at data up to 2012 on the matter and doesn't find any evidence that immigrants are using the NHS more proportionally.

And if we think about this for a moment - that position would make sense if you consider;

1.) By and large immigrants are of working age, a demographic of the population less likely to need health care at that point.

2.) Our native population has an imbalance towards older people - so naturally, this would put more demands on the service, both in terms of time and cost.

3.) Immigrants only make up 13% of the population - so to clause a major drain, a much higher proportion of that population would need to be using the service, more often - which just doesn't ring true. The touted claim, doesn't really pass the 'does it make sense test'.

Now the study above went into much more forensic detail, consider factors such as a larger cluster of immigrants in a particular area, but again the results didn't bare out the common misconception.

And it's worth considering what has been going on with government policy on the NHS in the most recent years, including a major re-organisation, which is going to have an impact on the service / waiting times.

I also believe there's been a change in the way GP appointments are targeted, which is why you never get offered an appointment within a week anymore, but are quite able to get an emergency one within a couple of hours.

My wife's a nurse and works in several hospitals, I can assure you a fair proportion of patients are immigrants. You can contest it all you like with probibility but it is a fact, the more people you let into the country the more staff the hospitals and other services will need. Also as you have pointed out on more than one occasion, immigration is not new to this country. So whilst they may be of working age when they come into the country, they suffer from the same mortal conditions as the rest of us.

[Jimothy]

Never a fan of surveys that ask 1000 out of a population of 65m but it what they do and all we have to go off.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

[johnny the fox]

Never a fan of surveys that ask 1000 out of a population of 65m but it what they do and all we have to go off.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

yeah.. we are all too thick to know which way the wind blows... much better to leave it to our rulers and betters ..they have done such a wonderful job up to now haven't they..? There is an old saying,  the bigger the lie you tell the more people will believe it..

[Jimothy]

yeah.. we are all too thick to know which way the wind blows... much better to leave it to our rulers and betters ..they have done such a wonderful job up to now haven't they..? There is an old saying, the bigger the lie you tell the more people will believe it..

It's a survey asking the public what they think the facts are about EU. I have absolutely no idea how you got that rant out of that