The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[theessexfox]

We'd all do a lot of things if we were PM but the rest of Europe showed during the negotiations they weren't interested in reform.

Well at least there's a positive trend which is empowering the democratically elected part of the EU    I guess it slightly counters the argument that's it is fundamentally undemocratic because MEPs cannot initiate legislation, which they can to a certain extent. I am not arguing that the EU is perfect, totally democratic or even desirable but many arguments regarding democracy are flawed.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

We'd all do a lot of things if we were PM but the rest of Europe showed during the negotiations they weren't interested in reform.

Far from it, there were many countries that backed us. I think the problem Cameron had is that the EU couldn't be seen to be giving too many concessions from a threat to leave.

Had he pushed a strong reform agenda over a 5 year period, without the confirmed threat of a referendum (could hint at it, but not have it confirmed), he could have been a lot more successful - but I'm not completely convinced that EU reform was Cameron's primary concern at that time.

[Jimothy]

You see, little comments like that make me doubt your sincerity.

 

PS I read that at least twice.

In other news I think I'm due an apology, as I was clearly correct, at least on that instance, as Carl has clarified his intentions and pointed out that you failed to spot in the original post or the subsequent ones that he had reiterated his point about not calling all leave voters thick racists.

[Webbo]

In other news I think I'm due an apology, as I was clearly correct, at least on that instance, as Carl has clarified his intentions and pointed out that you failed to spot in the original post or the subsequent ones that he had reiterated his point about not calling all leave voters thick racists.

I think you misread my last reply. Put me on ignore, you're boring me.

[Jimothy]

I think you misread my last reply. Put me on ignore, you're boring me.

Sorry if people proving you wrong bores you, maybe you should try being right sometime

And my point still stands. Hold whatever views you like, but if you're going to argue with people, bloody well read what they put!

[Carl the Llama]

You see, little comments like that make me doubt your sincerity.

 

PS I read that at least twice.

I sincerely despair that bigots with no capacity or willingness to learn about an issue before deciding where they stand on it have as much right to vote as I do, regardless of whether their bigotry leads them to the same conclusions as me or not.  It's the whole right thing for the wrong reasons debate.  Obviously you feel that the end justifies the means in these peoples' case and feel the need to defend the entire brexit campaign from being tarnished by them, that's your prerogative but I disagree with both the ends and the means besides, all I'm doing is giving evidence that these idiots exist and are voting to leave along with the more informed brexiters.  I do worry that this kind of person may be the swing between in and out but, for what feels like the hundredth time, I'm not saying they represent the entirety of the leave vote.

 

Kind of hoping that you will come back at me with personal experience of ill-informed loud-mouths going on about staying in Europe because we can only hope to beat the Germans from the inside or some such nonsense just so we can agree there are idiots on all sides because if anything's boring it's trying to get you to accept that me witnessing idiots with the same end-goal as you isn't the same as having a go at you and everyone who holds your views.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

No Carl, but equally people on the Brexit side don't like trying to be labelled with some of the extreme views that attaches itself to the argument - and understandably so.

The labels aimed the other way round tend not to be as taboo.

[Carl the Llama]

No Carl, but equally people on the Brexit side don't like trying to be labelled with some of the extreme views that attaches itself to the argument - and understandably so.

The labels aimed the other way round tend not to be as taboo.

I get that, hence the apparently futile attempts to make it clear that's not what I'm doing because I can differentiate between the two.  I still think it's worth mentioning what I experienced given it relates to the topic of the thread and I'm certainly not going to pretend these people don't exist just because a couple of posters on here are upset at self-determined insults for sharing a binary opinion with them.  Shit like this is why I try to avoid political topics on here; there's no way to have a say without people choosing to be offended by my choice of words.  I feel like if I could take a list of every brexiter in the UK and highlight the names of the 6 people I spoke to plus the group of 5 middle-aged wine-drinkers I overheard later that evening as people in the out camp who I think are particularly ill-informed in their decision making Webbo would still have a go at me for tarring him.

 

Anyway, I'm off to bed since I've had a long day today and I've got another long one tomorrow, no doubt I'll log back in tomorrow afternoon in time to find more refusal to take my words at face value.  Oh the joy of FT politics.

[pleatout]

That is bullshit.. sorry..

You dont understand do you?  European elections are party based not MEP based.

#

 

But to reiterate knowing the name has nothing to do with understanding the process.

[pleatout]

same difference.. I can always tell the argument is weak when the personal abuse starts...i'm sure he can speak for himself.. He actually is saying we get less than 10"% of a democracy..and most of us don't even know who are representatives are...if that is ok with you good luck...vote to stay in....but remember when it hits fan you had a chance reclaim what previous generations gave their lives for... remember there wouldn't even be a EUROPE if wasn't for this country... this project is doomed it is just a matter of time.

I agree, you started the personal abuse the patronising comment.

 

We get less the 10% of the "democracy" because we make up less than 10% of the EU.  

 

I know who our representatives are.  Anyone can look them up.  Knowing their names without looking them up is not an important part of democracy.

 

Can you name the things that we need to reclaim?

[johnny the fox]

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html 

 

It's fine to be incorrect but simply ignoring the facts and telling me I'm wrong doesn't really make for constructive debate.

Think you make my point for me.. any fooker who can understand that lot... answers on a postcard.. ha ha..

 

The point is this.. the political elite advocating remain have forfeit there privileged authority because they got us where we are now without " we the people" having a informed proper say..and they are going to pay for it one way or another.. this is / was not what the people voted for over 40 years ago... a con was perpetrated on our nation. now its coming home to roost..

[Webbo]

I get that, hence the apparently futile attempts to make it clear that's not what I'm doing because I can differentiate between the two.  I still think it's worth mentioning what I experienced given it relates to the topic of the thread and I'm certainly not going to pretend these people don't exist just because a couple of posters on here are upset at self-determined insults for sharing a binary opinion with them.  Shit like this is why I try to avoid political topics on here; there's no way to have a say without people choosing to be offended by my choice of words.  I feel like if I could take a list of every brexiter in the UK and highlight the names of the 6 people I spoke to plus the group of 5 middle-aged wine-drinkers I overheard later that evening as people in the out camp who I think are particularly ill-informed in their decision making Webbo would still have a go at me for tarring him.

 

Anyway, I'm off to bed since I've had a long day today and I've got another long one tomorrow, no doubt I'll log back in tomorrow afternoon in time to find more refusal to take my words at face value.  Oh the joy of FT politics.

I've no problem with you Carl. We've argued before, I don't bare a grudge. I didn't think you were targeting me especially.

[johnny the fox]

Just this country? We had no allies at any stage?

read your history..this country stood ALONE between 39 /41 .russia actually did a deal with nazi germany orginally.. remember the battle of britain? hitler didn't want to fight on two fronts...so yes we did stand alone and if we had gone under there wouldn't be this EU fact.

[purpleronnie]

read your history..this country stood ALONE between 39 /41 .russia actually did a deal with nazi germany orginally.. remember the battle of britain? hitler didn't want to fight on two fronts...so yes we did stand alone and if we had gone under there wouldn't be this EU fact.

And thank god we weren't alone for any more than that.  Thank you to our european allies.

[johnny the fox]

Nothing changes if you're on the outside, @@Foxxed post about fishing quotas was a perfect example. You see this idea we can leave and still trade and get all the benefits is fantasy. We'll get no say at all on eu policy but will still be controlled by some laws and trade deals. Sitting on the outside looking in with no influence but all the problems.

Checked out that voting card you were so cock sure about earlier yet?

What you on about .. this country has been trading for thousands of years before the EU ..and will be trading for thousand s of years after the EU  is confined to the dustbin of history..its called self benefit and economics.... 90% of the world is not in the EU..I wonder how they survive..

[Jimothy]

What you on about .. this country has been trading for thousands of years before the EU ..and will be trading for thousand s of years after the EU is confined to the dustbin of history..its called self benefit and economics.... 90% of the world is not in the EU..I wonder how they survive..

I didn't say we wouldn't trade or have trade with other countries in the rest of the world did I? Just because something was happening 50 years ago doesn't mean it'll work now, and leaving is completely different to never being in. Also the EU wasn't around back then, but it is now, so as I previously pointed out we'll be effected by policies that we have no say on if we leave, the wouldn't have been the case pre EU.

Looked at that voting card yet?

[Jimothy]

I've no problem with you Carl. We've argued before, I don't bare a grudge. I didn't think you were targeting me especially.

Firstly I'm not putting you ignore before you say anything, why should I miss out on you normally good posting because of your poor posting on this subject.

Where exactly did Carl mention targeting you? You accused him of tarring all leave voters as thick racists, he denied that. There was never any talk of him targeting you individually.

[Webbo]

Firstly I'm not putting you ignore before you say anything, why should I miss out on you normally good posting because of your poor posting on this subject.

Where exactly did Carl mention targeting you? You accused him of tarring all leave voters as thick racists, he denied that. There was never any talk of him targeting you individually.

I'm not going to get involved in some pathetic internet feud. We'll just stay out of each other's way.

[Jimothy]

I'm wrong, but I'm not going to admit it.

I think that's what you meant

Edit: In all seriousness though it not a pathetic Internet arguement is it. I want to discuss this debate properly with people who are prepared to take in an opposing arguement and counter it properly, not people who make knee jerk comments against anything that is against their side. If you can pull Carl up (wrongly) for calling all brexiters racists, why can't I pull you up on your error?

[Buce]

And thank god we weren't alone for any more than that. Thank you to our european allies.

Our European allies had been overrun.

Like it or not, we have the Yanks to thank.

[Rincewind]

I also know people who have taken in the immigration side of things. They tend to be older people who remember things before the EU. I also know people who won't vote out for fear of being branded a racist.It is easy for a person to assume that because of the way the media covers immigration. I do not want to name any specific paper but they tend to lead with figures for immigrants as headline shockers. Suffice to to say I rarely agree with their political stance. We all know the type 'did you see that in the xxxx disgusting, I said it would happen years ago.'

Luckily the majority on here are not like that even the ones I disagree with. Even Cameron's own party members are saying he is scaremongering over pensions. They it was pledged in the manifesto that they would be protected. Is Cameron admitting now that he will break those promises if we leave? It just seems something to blame for when policies start to hit more people. I wonder if deep down he is hoping for out.

My reason for voting out is simply that although I agree in principle with the idea of the EU I think it is failing and needs a complete rethink. How I do not know. It is too complex for little ol me.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

To be honest with you Ken - that triple lock they put on pensions wasn't clever when they did. Yes it may have been a vote winner, but it doesn't half handcuff the state to some bloody expensive spending, with no leeway.

And for example, say if on exit growth slows down (reducing tax receipts) and inflation went up a few points (upping the increase in state pension), any government would have to act, even if it was deeply unpopular amongst the voting generation.

Now has Cameron overstated his case - probably - but I can see there is an element of truth in what has been said.

[Guest]

read your history..this country stood ALONE between 39 /41 .russia actually did a deal with nazi germany orginally.. remember the battle of britain? hitler didn't want to fight on two fronts...so yes we did stand alone and if we had gone under there wouldn't be this EU fact.

 

Were you even alive in 1939?

 

Why don't you quote the napoleonic wars or the Prussian conflicts.

[Rincewind]

If I wasn't a pensioner I may be inclined to accept that but without the triple lock the bus pass and other things I would struggle to get by on the pension. Right now as it is only the credit type my max per week is 144. It will increase in November to a full pension which is more. Forget how much or if it is means tested. There may be pensioners who have had decent careers and on a private pension but there are many more relying on just the SP. My brother a couple of years older and was a teacher and owned his own business  has said his savings will run out first or he will. After it does he will just be on the SP. He has predicted only a few years so he is making the most of his life while he can. Holidays etc. And he is very good with money and accounting, with a maths degree.. What is it like for those that are not?

I still think Cameron using the Brexit angle is a bit sneaky. But I have never trusted him so I am biased. 

[Kilworthfox]

I am voting leave.

 

The best reason is for my reasoning is democracy. I can not abide how Greece has been treated mainly by Germany. I understand the economic issues that were mostly the Greeks fault, but if they stand a chance of paying what they already owe, then they need the Drachma back and they need to invest in their own industries. When they democratically voted to end austerity, they were basically were not allowed their own democracy and were made to comply with the Germans wishes to take another bail out package. This is not democracy! This is totalitarianism. I believe that the Germans are prospering very nicely out of other nations economic struggles.

 

What if the UK had similar troubles that we are unaware of? How would we be treated?

 

Secondly the best thing the uk ever did was have a referendum on the single currency and reject further integration with Europe. I speak every week with Spanish people and their own situation today is that they are economically worse off than when they had Pesetas, as they could control their own economy, and become more or less competitive as they saw fit. Its about control! 

 

For me Immigration is not a huge issue. What I am saying is, I do not think that it is a massive issue for me personally. 6% of the uk population are migrants. 6% of the NHS workers for example are migrants, so my reasoning is that the balance between migrants and the working percentages  are about correct. That said, I do understand that there are good people who are unemployed who really do want to work, but are not suitable candidates because they are British. I know this to be true! I used to work in recruitment, and there are companies in Leicester & Leicestershire who have almost a nationalistic approach to their recruitment. For example within a warehouse there will be supervisors who are Slovakian and they will hire Slovakians specifically because of the language barrier. This means that Poles, Czechs, Romanians, British etc... will be less likely to be offered a job! This goes on in our society!

 

I am aware of the pressures of the NHS, Housing, Education, Infrastructure... with less migration there would be less pressure on these things.

 

There is a lot of false information flying about from bot sides of the argument! The £350M figure is not representative of the money lost in total to the EU. The Net figure is more like £161M according to the BBC. £161M is still a staggering sum in my opinion. I am not too interested in other members bad deals, our is a bad deal!

 

Through austerity measures this country saved (IFS figures) £36 Bil Net contribution last year, the UK spends £42 Bil net contribution on the EU every year. so in theory we could have councils, NHS, schools, infrastructure police, anything that's been cut, back to the budgets before austerity, and have £8 Billion pounds spare for future investment or to help the 12% of UK companies who do trade with the EU, if the EU did decide to add a tariff after EU exit.

 

The EU is not a growing market, it is the same size now that it was in 2006!

 

Our economy is mostly service based. I believe that it is only 12% of our economy actually export goods that are effected by these free trade deals, David Cameron speaks of in every question he is asked, if it is connected or not, to the issue in hand. So 88% of UK exporters have to spend their money and time complying with regulations that they never need to deal with.

 

Our economy is based on a tertiary industries, service industries, the primary and secondary industry job sectors are not as large in our country. I am telling you this as for service industries you do not need trade agreements! So our economy within banking for example which is our major service industry, would not be effected by any EU trade deals, as they never have been. 

 

I listened to the radio last week, and there was a lively debate in Suffolk on BBC radio 5. An MEP was defending the EU on its fishing policy's, saying that the UK sold 9 million tonnes of fish into the EU last year. Sound impressive? Well not really as our fishing industry has been decimated by the EU allowing other fleets from Spain, France, Scandanavia. everywhere... to fish in our waters. It is believed that we now are only allowed to fish in 14% of the waters that we could before EU. There were over 700 boats in Folkstone fishing port, now only 17! This is not progress for the UK.

 

I am aware that the EU has spent money on moving industries away from the UK, to China, India, Ford to Turkey, but I don't know that facts on these.

 

The Remain campaign has to be devastated with how the TV debates have gone for them. Eddie Izzard on BBCQT was a disaster, just wanting to pick on Farage and make idiotic pointless petty comments. David Cameron took a hammering on Sky News with the public. When Farage was on the same Sky News he was again ambushed by the lady from the Huffington post, who wouldn't listen to any replies. This made Farage again be the victim of ignorant people who wont listen to the opposite point of view. Frank Field on BBCQT was excellent, and I am by no means a Labour or conservative for that matter, voter! I think that small things like these can turn the undecided to Leave.

 

I think people just want to hear some sense on important issues which actually effect them, arguments over monstrous figures, the electorate really do not see how it effects them.

 

I am happy to air my views, if you do not agree, that is your right, but please have a constructive conversation rather than insults, and I promise I will listen to your viewpoint.

 

Bluearmy!