The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Webbo]

I don't see the point if you can't contribute sensibly tbh. He said "in these parts anyway" very obviously talking about the single experience.

Or did he touch a nerve? Do you secretly hold similar views? Or does it piss you off your stance is associated with people who do. However much you try and deny it, there are a section of leave voters who are thick racists.

The implication is clear, Just look at spherical's reply;

 

in essence the Brexit campaign is based on the fuel of ignorance.

I notice you didn't tell him off for not reading?

 

I've argued with remainers on here and not implied any of them are thick or have any sinister motives. Trying to scare people out of arguing by implying racism might have worked in the 90s but we're all bored with it now.

[Jimothy]

The implication is clear, Just look at spherical's reply;

 

I notice you didn't tell him off for not reading?

 

I've argued with remainers on here and not implied any of them are thick or have any sinister motives. Trying to scare people out of arguing by implying racism might have worked in the 90s but we're all bored with it now.

I didn't see his post tbh.

[Rincewind]

Where I was there were people talking about leaving but for different reasons than I have. Theirs was mainly a viewpoint gathered from papers. One was talking about having to use kilos and decimal currency instead of £SP.  They are about the same age as me but I was smiling inwardly to myself. I did not want to get involved. It was neck and neck for me and in the end it was some family members that swayed me to Bexit. It had nothing to do with immigration and the argument re workers rights is that we have them anyway gained by unions and governments. If any rights were taken away they would do it regardless of being in or out.

My main reason is that the future of the EU is insecure so may be best to be away from it when it goes tits up. That could also be wrong but at least a close vote will worry MP's from all sides and may at some people start listening to the people.

 

My reasons are not racist. Some people may be swayed by arguments that may be regarde by the Bremains as racist who in turn will vote remain because of it

[sphericalfox]

The implication is clear, Just look at spherical's reply;

 

I notice you didn't tell him off for not reading?

 

I've argued with remainers on here and not implied any of them are thick or have any sinister motives. Trying to scare people out of arguing by implying racism might have worked in the 90s but we're all bored with it now.

 

 

I'm not scaring anyone Webbo. The fact is a fact. The basis on which the Brexit campaign revolves around is through misinformation, and the reliance on ignorance, to instil fear in a society that is as an island veers towards isolationism anyways, with the hope that they can tip those who are inherently xenophobic to vote for a rejection of of something they do not understand or is alien to their way of thinking. If this makes you uncomfortable Webbo, as it's been mentioned to be included in this significant voting populous, just say so.

[Jimothy]

The implication is clear, Just look at spherical's reply;

I notice you didn't tell him off for not reading?

I've argued with remainers on here and not implied any of them are thick or have any sinister motives. Trying to scare people out of arguing by implying racism might have worked in the 90s but we're all bored with it now.

Spherical's reply doesn't dictate the intentions of Carl's message. He's just as daft as you for being so black or white in the other direction. Not all brexiters are think racists, but if you'd care to pick up a dictionary and check the definition of the word some, you'll be on the right track. Carl isn't tarring you all with the same brush, but you being extremely naive if you think there a no people voting to leave because they a xenophobic and racist.

[bovril]

I guess from 'round this way' he means Cambridgeshire / the Fens, which - apart from the city itself - is a very conservative, isolated and pretty closed-minded region. Without wishing to negatively stereotype groups of people too much, people round there are pretty unwelcoming to outsiders, be they Western or Eastern European, Asian, or even from outside of East Anglia. It's all very "I went to that London once... didn't like it". My brother in law got told to "**** off back to Eastern Europe" on the train a couple of days after Farage was complaining about foreign languages on public transport. He was speaking Swedish.

 

I'm waiting for someone to respond with something along the lines of "local youth don't have a chance now with all the unskilled migrants coming in" which is not true at all.

 

So to paraphrase Walsh at the end of Chinatown, "forget it Carl, it's the Fens...".

[davieG]

Considering the appalling behaviour of some of our so called England fans I'm sure a fair few will be hoping we vote out.

[Webbo]

Where I was there were people talking about leaving but for different reasons than I have. Theirs was mainly a viewpoint gathered from papers. One was talking about having to use kilos and decimal currency instead of £SP.  They are about the same age as me but I was smiling inwardly to myself. I did not want to get involved. It was neck and neck for me and in the end it was some family members that swayed me to Bexit. It had nothing to do with immigration and the argument re workers rights is that we have them anyway gained by unions and governments. If any rights were taken away they would do it regardless of being in or out.

My main reason is that the future of the EU is insecure so may be best to be away from it when it goes tits up. That could also be wrong but at least a close vote will worry MP's from all sides and may at some people start listening to the people.

 

My reasons are not racist. Some people may be swayed by arguments that may be regarde by the Bremains as racist who in turn will vote remain because of it

I almost repped that Ken. I can't believe we're on the same side for once. It's a little worrying. 

[Carl the Llama]

I just thought it was worth pointing out that a lot of people on the Brexit side can't actually tell you what's wrong with the EU, just that they 'know' it's bad. One guy started off on one about the millions of Syrian immigrants using the EU as a foot in the door to the UK, wouldn't believe me that that's not at all true, then tried having a go at me for making up figures when I corrected him that there aren't "well over 50" EU countries. This was a person I've come to know as generally very intelligent on most topics...

[Rincewind]

There have actually been a great deal leave the UK after coming here. I think Carl may be right. I can't actually put my finger on it but the EU may have had its day. I am all for it but it is not working now. Needs breaking up and starting again.

[sphericalfox]

Spherical's reply doesn't dictate the intentions of Carl's message. He's just as daft as you for being so black or white in the other direction. Not all brexiters are think racists, but if you'd care to pick up a dictionary and check the definition of the word some, you'll be on the right track. Carl isn't tarring you all with the same brush, but you being extremely naive if you think there a no people voting to leave because they a xenophobic and racist.

 

 

He's reading into in a statement that isn't personal and assuming it's aimed at him. I've replied and elaborated. Webbo can admit, should pride not stand in the way, that this method is abhorrent.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

@@carl the lama

I'm not suprised by your account, because there are clearly people motivated to vote out by loose arguments, but for balance you have to concede that there will be the same happening on the Remain side. Additionally, people haven't exactly been helped by either campaign so far to dispel these things have they.

Yet the irony of this whole situation is not lost on me - something that was setup to quell dangerous nationalism that threatened humanity is after a little more than half a century being attacked by that very same thing (that's not to try and tarnish all who wish to vote out, but it'd be wrong to dismiss there isn't a worrying bubbling overtone of this across nations).

Now for me it's quite sad that people are willing to exchange wider freedoms and personal protections (consumer, employee,,potentially environmental) for what is touted as 'democracy' but in effect something that would have very little impact on their day to day lives.

It's been suggested that if an MP makes a law you don't like you can vote them out... Well you can only do that if that MP is the MP for your constituency and you have to wait for the 5 year cycle to come round. Ok, you may be able to vote for a different party in a proxy protest against that MP at that time - but your vote then depends on a majority of others taking the same view, otherwise that MP / it's party would remain in office.

For example - IDS made policy decisions and implemented legislation that adversely impacted a lot of people, a significant t would have loved to have held him to account at the last election - yet he remained in position until he choose to step down. Those effected were unable to hold him directly to account for his decisions (try as they might through other avenues). So if that's the position now - how does giving these people more power help democracy in this own country?

At least whilst we are in the EU, you do have a further chance to exercise your opinion on things and help shape a direction on a wider stage - it shouldn't be lost on people UKIP were only able to gain a foothold into mainstream politics in this country through the EU and that 4 million votes in a general election in this country resulted in just the one MP. You could argue that if it wasn't for the 'broken democracy' of the EU, this referendum wouldn't have happened in the first place.

So in 'taking back control' what we potentially end up with less opportunity to vote and focus more power on one pillar of governence rather than have our voice spread between local, regional, national and international structures. Is that really giving us more of a say?

And so to immigration - don't get me wrong, I understand the concerns - yet, this is a country that liked to champion people who have come from megre backgrounds and went onto great things, so why are we against people looking to do that very same thing? Looking to better themselves and the lives of their family?

Ok, maybe immigration takes away opportunities for our young people - but does that not point to a worrying failing in our own systems and structures? Could immigration lower wages? Well possibly, but could a reduction in union membership / powers, meaning it's a lot harder for employees to fight their own corner, also be a key influencing factor? Is immigration perpetuating the housing crisis? Well maybe, but then if there were no places to live at the cost a low skilled job could fund, how could low skilled immigrants survive (and still manage to send money back to their home country)?

Another thing to ask is will immigration fall if we come out? Well possibly not, because there is a case that can be made to suggest our country is still in demand for more working age people to rebalance our population for the prosperity of us all. After all - what demographic is more likely to be the higher percentage in hospitals / GP surgeries - working age immigrants or older people? Working age immigrants or the clinically obese?

If after consideration people want to vote out, on whatever argument that's fine - it's a personal choice and I'd back an individual's right to do that - but I hope people aren't thinking a vote that way would be a golden bullet that would get rid of all the nations challenges and not potentially create new ones in their place.

[johnny the fox]

I'm not scaring anyone Webbo. The fact is a fact. The basis on which the Brexit campaign revolves around is through misinformation, and the reliance on ignorance, to instil fear in a society that is as an island veers towards isolationism anyways, with the hope that they can tip those who are inherently xenophobic to vote for a rejection of of something they do not understand or is alien to their way of thinking. If this makes you uncomfortable Webbo, as it's been mentioned to be included in this significant voting populous, just say so.

" Brexit revolves around misinformation"  ?    go tell world war 3 dave,,, ha ha 

[sphericalfox]

" Brexit revolves around misinformation"  ?    go tell world war 3 dave,,, ha ha 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with you around some of the tactics regarding the 'remain' campaign. Ridiculous comments from Cameron.

[davieG]

Is there a single elected politician actively involved involved in this campaign who you feel is telling the truth.

 

Most 'facts' are nothing more than guesswork peppered with the individual's bias. Yet they are stated by both sides with such conviction as true.

 

Politicians of all persuasions have hit a new low.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

" Brexit revolves around misinformation" ? go tell world war 3 dave,,, ha ha

Interesting comment - because I don't believe Dave used those words did he?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Is there a single elected politician actively involved involved in this campaign who you feel is telling the truth.

Most 'facts' are nothing more than guesswork peppered with the individual's bias. Yet they are stated by both sides with such conviction as true.

Politicians of all persuasions have hit a new low.

This shouldn't be suprising given the nature of an MP's job - they're well practiced at influencing based on policies for the future.

History and psychology shows us that passion and presentation are as much a part of capturing people's minds as the argument itself.

This could point to why the Remain camp is struggling because it's not a passionate defence of the EU itself, it's more a grumbling objection to another way of thinking.

It's why I thought Eddie Izzards contribution the other night wasn't that bad, even if it was over the top, because at least it showed an enthusiasm and could connect with a demographic.

[The Railway Man]

in essence the Brexit campaign is based on the fuel of ignorance.

 

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.

 

He quite obviously talking about his experience last night and how he feels about those people views. Learn to read Webbo or don't bother contributing.

 

That is what people think though, just look at the ridiculous post quoted above.

 

Get used to it though, if leave still leads in the polls with a week to go the whole remain argument will turn into "you can't vote Brexit that's racist", it's the goto line for these sort of people on everything these days.

[The Railway Man]

Had a conversation earlier with 6 or so brexiters talking about "taking back control" this and "soldiers who fought the Germans would be spinning in their grave" that.  When I spoke up and asked if anybody could name any of the 3 institutions that comprise the EU not a single person could give me an answer but I did get challenged to answer my own question...  When I named the Council of Europe, European Commission, and European Parliament the first 2 drew a load of blank stares and to the last one I got the rather wonderful response that it can't be a parliament if we don't vote for it.  Cue more confused tangential shouting about immigration, Turkey, lost industry, and saving the NHS when I pointed out that actually we do.

 

From what was said and most strongly focused on by this group and another separate bunch I later eavesdropped as I quietly watched the end of the France match in a post-work stupor, I gather the key driving force behind the Brexit point of view (in these parts anyway) is a xenophobic distrust of any immigrants (removing the Poles and, rather confusingly, kicking the Filipinos out of the NHS were popular topics) or else a vague and naive expectancy that they will personally have a noticeably greater impact on the political process within our borders.

 

For the love of God there are decent reasons to be disillusioned with the EU, the common fisheries policy being probably the best imo, but I didn't hear any of them being cogently broached tonight.  The worst thing is I can honestly see the Brexit vote winning and me having to put up with hearing all these cretins crow on about how they've achieved some kind of intellectual victory over the simpleton civilians of the other 27 member states meekly putting up with the EU's fascist control over their private lives.

 

I'd also put very good money on the fact this didn't even happen, amazing how so many remainers seem to manage to find a group of idiots all supporting Brexit and they turn out to be complete morons.

 

It's amazing how this group of uneducated idiots who didn't even know what the EU Commission was managed to also know the NHS has a huge percentage of Filipinos, something very few people who don't take a deep interest in politics actually know.

 

To say I smell bullshit is an understatement.

[davieG]

This shouldn't be suprising given the nature of an MP's job - they're well practiced at influencing based on policies for the future.

History and psychology shows us that passion and presentation are as much a part of capturing people's minds as the argument itself.

This could point to why the Remain camp is struggling because it's not a passionate defence of the EU itself, it's more a grumbling objection to another way of thinking.

It's why I thought Eddie Izzards contribution the other night wasn't that bad, even if it was over the top, because at least it showed an enthusiasm and could connect with a demographic.

Well I guess that's  why I think politics  and politicians in general just stinks.

 

I'm  not convinced that it is necessary, passion ok but the statements should use language relating what the aims / targets  are rather than presenting them as certainties. Stating them as certainties encourages lazyness in trying to achieve the goals.

 

Least wise  that's  how I and my colleagues approached our projects when I was working. 

[theessexfox]

It's clearly not racist to vote Brexit but it's plainly obvious that there is a significant minority who will vote on xenophobic assumptions rather than knowing the facts and the legitimate arguments for Brexit - that's not to say that there aren't plenty who will vote for Remain without having a good grasp on the issues too.

[johnny the fox]

Interesting comment - because I don't believe Dave used those words did he?

And he didn't state while in Turkey that he wants them to join asap...

[DJ Barry Hammond]

And he didn't state while in Turkey that he wants them to join asap...

He made pro Turkey joining the EU comments in 2010, when in Ankara - diplomacy possibly? Equally, it doesn't mean that Turkey joining the EU is going to happen anytime soon. Do you have any idea how long ago the current application from Turkey was made?

[Foxxed]

The UK have been vaguely keen on Turkey joining for years. Both Labour and Conservative have been pro from time to time. The UK want it to happen possibly because:

1. The road to membership would mean them changing in some desirable way the UK wants, possibly trade
2. It increases the size of the European Common Market, thereby increasing the EU's political leverage
3. It would increase the EU's reach into the east.
4. The UK would assumingly work together with Turkey to form a 140 million people voting block in the Council and Parliament

France and Germany aren't keen, however. And since you need unanimity to join the EU from its members, it ain't going to happen, at least not within the next 30 years at least.

[Foxxed]

Probably the most depressing thing about the referendum is that Brexit are viewed as racist bigots.

 

If you are, say, bigoted against anyone non-English then of course you're going to be against a pan-national organisation including non-English people attempting to work together. The bigoted group--while in Brexit--are not the only group in Brexit.

 

There are, of course, arguments against the EU that don't revolve around "I don't trust them foreigners". And if you think the UK will be economically, politically and culturally better of by removing itself for the largest pan-national trading organisation in the world, then fair enough. I just don't see it.