The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Strokes]

To protect British immigration officials from attacks by dissident Republicans (not immigrants from the continent). 

 

Major elements of the Peace Process were:

- The gradual elimination of border controls between Eire and N. Ireland

- The gradual removal of the British armed forces, once it became clear that the IRA ceasefire/disarmament was real

- The replacement of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) by the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI)

 

Even now, there are very occasional attacks on PSNI officers. If British border posts were re-established (by an occupying power, as they see it), they would surely be much more of a target?

I don't think we need to occupy our borders, we aren't hating on people. Come over, take a look. What's that you want to work? Ok you need to apply for a permit/visa.

[Alf Bentley]

There might be a risk of a short term increase but there will be plenty of short term hardship going on. We can't keep increasing the population by a city a year, forever.

If they are on the black market they will need to sort themselves out, or be counted amongst the illegals. Like you say there will be a grace period.

 

 

I was actually referring to illegal immigrants post-Brexit not having N.I. numbers - indeed the difficulty of entering legally might increase the number of illegals working in the black economy.

 

Of course, the extensive use of labour inspections to deal with undeclared employment is an option - but an expensive one, if done properly. So far, the government has been cutting back on such inspections on the grounds of austerity - presumably part of the reason why many Eastern Europeans are believed to be working at illegal rates in seasonal agriculture etc.

 

Re. your last point: Yes, open borders with a requirement for work permits/visas might be an option that would avoid problems at the N. Ireland border.......but then we wouldn't really have "control of our borders", as Brexit want, would we? The need for permits/visas might reduce numbers, but there'd still be an influx working illegally.

[Strokes]

I was actually referring to illegal immigrants post-Brexit not having N.I. numbers - indeed the difficulty of entering legally might increase the number of illegals working in the black economy.

 

Of course, the extensive use of labour inspections to deal with undeclared employment is an option - but an expensive one, if done properly. So far, the government has been cutting back on such inspections on the grounds of austerity - presumably part of the reason why many Eastern Europeans are believed to be working at illegal rates in seasonal agriculture etc.

 

Re. your last point: Yes, open borders with a requirement for work permits/visas might be an option that would avoid problems at the N. Ireland border.......but then we wouldn't really have "control of our borders", as Brexit want, would we? The need for permits/visas might reduce numbers, but there'd still be an influx working illegally.

I'm not sure illegal immigration has to do with the EU, if they aren't legal they should be sent packing. If employers are paying under minimum wages they should be heavily penalised. Whether we remain or not. If the governments current policy of finding this out is ineffective, then it needs addressing, whatever the EU situation.

[Carl the Llama]

Now Carl, you can't disagree with boris when he uses gross figure and then use them yourself to make a point. It's not cricket pal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf

Check out the pie chart page 17.

Fair enough but that's just the 2015 figures for a statistic which varies each year, the rankings I was referring to were based on a period of 7 years from 2007-2013 but I've just gone back to them at your prompt, seen the years selected, and gone to the source material for those figures where I used my calculator to add in the 2014 and your 2015 figures which do indeed confirm that we are 3rd behind Germany and France in terms of total net contributions.  As a share of the nation's GDP however I can't see any years where we rank higher than 4th; for the most recent year where figures are available - 2014 - we come in 10th with a net contribution of 0.23% putting us behind Italy(0.28%), Denmark(0.32%), France(0.33%), Belgium(0.37%), Austria(0.38%), Finland(0.40%), Sweden(0.52%), Germany(0.52%), and firstly Netherlands(0.71%).  So as you can see it's somewhat disingenuous to claim we pay a disproportionate amount into the EU unless you're claiming that in the sense that we don't pay enough

[Buce]

Why not?

That was summed up in his last sentence.

It seems that 'immigration' is the sole focus of many who are voting to leave. People I have spoken with, and echoed on here by more than a few, have little or no understanding - or interest - of any of the other issues, just this naive belief that a vote for Leave means a return to the days when seeing a darkie was a rarity (an actual quote from my father-in-law).

[Webbo]

The MoS has come out for remain which might shock a few on here.

[Strokes]

Fair enough but that's just the 2015 figures for a statistic which varies each year, the rankings I was referring to were based on a period of 7 years from 2007-2013 but I've just gone back to them at your prompt, seen the years selected, and gone to the source material for those figures where I used my calculator to add in the 2014 and your 2015 figures which do indeed confirm that we are 3rd behind Germany and France in terms of total net contributions. As a share of the nation's GDP however I can't see any years where we rank higher than 4th; for the most recent year where figures are available - 2014 - we come in 10th with a net contribution of 0.23% putting us behind Italy(0.28%), Denmark(0.32%), France(0.33%), Belgium(0.37%), Austria(0.38%), Finland(0.40%), Sweden(0.52%), Germany(0.52%), and firstly Netherlands(0.71%). So as you can see it's somewhat disingenuous to claim we pay a disproportionate amount into the EU unless you're claiming that in the sense that we don't pay enough

Either way it's not fair to say people are uneducated when their is some ambiguity.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The MoS has come out for remain which might shock a few on here.

I try not to fund the Mail, but I had to go and have a look at the editorial - and it's astonishing quite frankly. Put it this way - had they announced their position last week, I imagine it would have been a very different piece.

[Steven]

The MoS has come out for remain which might shock a few on here.

 

[Webbo]

I try not to fund the Mail, but I had to go and have a look at the editorial - and it's astonishing quite frankly. Put it this way - had they announced their position last week, I imagine it would have been a very different piece.

Not if you read it regularly. There have been countless articles by remainders in there since the campaign began.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Not if you read it regularly. There have been countless articles by remainders in there since the campaign began.

Maybe I read the comments too much rather than the comments! I just checked back BTL of their article, the natives aren't best pleased!

[Webbo]

Nobody votes a certain way because a paper tells them too. They've been trying to steer opinion that way for weeks but coming out and telling people isn't going to change anyone's mind.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Nobody votes a certain way because a paper tells them too. They've been trying to steer opinion that way for weeks but coming out and telling people isn't going to change anyone's mind.

But a person's view is often derived by the paper they chose to read - there are distinct styles and positions from each - and the suprising thing is that it seems The Mail have positioned themselves at odds to their readership.

[johnny the fox]

The MoS has come out for remain which might shock a few on here.

sunday telegraph is for leave...

[apple987]

I've all but given up on this referendum now. Remain campaign are using Jo Cox as a way of getting votes unfortunately and that will easily get them over the line. David Cameron has said today, don't do what Nigel farage wants, do what Jo Cox believed in.

So any leave campaigners or believers I would fear the worst and then Thursdays result won't be of much disappointment.

If Farage wanted to leave the EU so much, in my opinion he should have took a step back in this campaigning. Just basically left it to Gove and Boris. I respect him and like him but the media has made him out to be a racist and people believe them.

Oh well. Life goes on still!

[Webbo]

But a person's view is often derived by the paper they chose to read - there are distinct styles and positions from each - and the suprising thing is that it seems The Mail have positioned themselves at odds to their readership.

The stereotype Mail reader as a foaming at the mouth bigot is a load of bollox, it's no less balanced than the Guardian and a lot more than the Mirror. I'd guess that the Mail readership is as evenly split on the question as the rest of the country.

[Dodgy Bob]

c) No, a tiny minority of race haters will and do exist, no permission required. But other factors could greatly swell their numbers. You've rightly mentioned immigration We'd still be in the EU with free movement of labour for at least 2 years. Gove said that there'd be no significant drop in immigration until after 2020. How many Brexit voters know that? How will they react if immigration remains high for years after Brexit (non-EU immigration is higher and we already have control over that)? Then throw in a probable recession for at least 2-3 years due to uncertainty over investment, negotiation of new trade terms etc - at a time when the public finances/services are already in a mess. Economic instability played a big part in the rise of the Nazis in Germany. Anti-European hostility could also be generated if the EU is perceived to be taking a tough line in negotiations with the UK over Brexit or trade deals - and I can imagine the press ramping that up. That could all make for a truly toxic atmosphere.

I could see things getting quite nasty. A big chunk of, let's face it, the less intelligent end of society who voted leave based solely on immigration will feel vindicated and emboldened in the event of a leave vote. I would have thought we'll see an increase in physical and verbal attacks on people who look foreign, with ironically non-eu immigrants baring the brunt. Then, with one battle 'won', and immigration notslowing down, I'd imagine things will only go downhill, and we'll see more larger organised protests against immigrants always ending in violence. The UK could quickly become a very ugly and mean spirited place.

[johnny the fox]

I've all but given up on this referendum now. Remain campaign are using Jo Cox as a way of getting votes unfortunately and that will easily get them over the line. David Cameron has said today, don't do what Nigel farage wants, do what Jo Cox believed in.

So any leave campaigners or believers I would fear the worst and then Thursdays result won't be of much disappointment.

If Farage wanted to leave the EU so much, in my opinion he should have took a step back in this campaigning. Just basically left it to Gove and Boris. I respect him and like him but the media has made him out to be a racist and people believe them.

Oh well. Life goes on still!

He was never going to do that... he has pursued this cause for 25 years.. and unfortunately he has a massive ego bordering on psychopathic... and that comes from somebody who supports leave...  mind there are lot of psychopaths around especially in politics .

[johnny the fox]

I could see things getting quite nasty. A big chunk of, let's face it, the less intelligent end of society who voted leave based solely on immigration will feel vindicated and emboldened in the event of a leave vote. I would have thought we'll see an increase in physical and verbal attacks on people who look foreign, with ironically non-eu immigrants baring the brunt. Then, with one battle 'won', and immigration notslowing down, I'd imagine things will only go downhill, and we'll see more larger organised protests against immigrants always ending in violence. The UK could quickly become a very ugly and mean spirited place.

"a big chunk of, lets face it, the less intelligent end of society who voted leave based solely on immigration"     Mmmmm.. nice to see you are superior to the riff raff  and hoy paloy... perhaps people like you should get 2 votes based on your intellect ?

[apple987]

I reckon the Daily Mail has changed its tune since the Jo Cox death. It has been running loads of stories on it and that he said put Britain first.

[Webbo]

I reckon the Daily Mail has changed its tune since the Jo Cox death. It has been running loads of stories on it and that he said put Britain first.

It's the Mail on Sunday that's said it's for remain and has been for weeks. I'm not sure which way the DM is going. Different editors.

[apple987]

It's the Mail on Sunday that's said it's for remain and has been for weeks. I'm not sure which way the DM is going. Different editors.

Daily mail has been biased for leave for months but the last few days it seems to have gone the other way.

Husband of Jo Cox scorned Nigel Farage's anti-immigration poster minutes before wife's death

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3648574/Vile-husband-scorned-Nigel-Farage-s-anti-immigration-poster-just-90-minutes-wife-s-death.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK

[Dodgy Bob]

"a big chunk of, lets face it, the less intelligent end of society who voted leave based solely on immigration" Mmmmm.. nice to see you are superior to the riff raff and hoy paloy... perhaps people like you should get 2 votes based on your intellect ?

If there was a fair and reliable way to moderate the weight given to votes based on the voter's understanding of a range of issues then I'd be all for it. Perhaps a multiple choice questionnaire on the ballot paper. Ten questions, if you get all of them correct your vote is worth 1, if you get 9 correct your vote is worth 0.9 and so on.

This works both ways, of course, just as there are people who will be voting leave based solely on immigration, there will be people voting remain based on some misguided ideas around 'one world culture' and what have you.

[johnny the fox]

If there was a fair and reliable way to moderate the weight given to votes based on the voter's understanding of a range of issues then I'd be all for it. Perhaps a multiple choice questionnaire on the ballot paper. Ten questions, if you get all of them correct your vote is worth 1, if you get 9 correct your vote is worth 0.9 and so on.

This works both ways, of course, just as there are people who will be voting leave based solely on immigration, there will be people voting remain based on some misguided ideas around 'one world culture' and what have you.

If only the third reich had thought of this...  can I nominate you as the arbiter of IQ's  and who is fit to vote please? 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClTce2sXIAAWNJt.jpg:large

[davieG]

If there was a fair and reliable way to moderate the weight given to votes based on the voter's understanding of a range of issues then I'd be all for it. Perhaps a multiple choice questionnaire on the ballot paper. Ten questions, if you get all of them correct your vote is worth 1, if you get 9 correct your vote is worth 0.9 and so on.

This works both ways, of course, just as there are people who will be voting leave based solely on immigration, there will be people voting remain based on some misguided ideas around 'one world culture' and what have you.

We should start with the people trying to get elected.