The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Buce]

You could implement that whilst having free movement and still being in the EU. You don't have to cut all ties, just make immigration less apealling, which your suggestion would do. We're free to implement measures that would make coming here a little trickier, we're not actually preventing eu nationals from coming here and working.

Also I kind of feel you're looking at immigration the wrong way round, and talking as though the majority of it is companies reaching out into Europe looking for employees and bringing them back to fill a role. IMO most of what I see is people coming here looking for jobs and in most cases successfully finding them. In the last year the company I work for has employed 8 new cleaner, 3 of which are British and 5 are eu nationals. When we employed the eu ones we had no other interested, but we needed cleaners, should we be punished because we've not found a non existent British person first? I mean how much eh immigration is actually filling roles that you've mentioned, it must a very small amount that are people being brought over to fill roles that companies are struggling to fill, it seems to be mainly people making there own way and then finding work be it unskilled or skilled.

Maybe if they paid more than minimum wage they'd attract more native workers. A bloated workforce makes it an employers' market.

And immigrants who are prepared to live in crowded households can afford to work for lower wages.

[Steven]

Maybe if they paid more than minimum wage they'd attract more native workers.

Immigrants who are prepared to live in crowded households can afford to work for lower wages.

 

This and the fact that immigrants are more mobile. It would help workers already here if the Government helped with housing costs to allow people already here to move around more easily.

 

I have to say in the whole immigration debate I see little said about the role employers play in bringing people from outside the UK.

[johnny the fox]

I thought European Council put forward proposed laws and it is up to commissioners to write it up and to make it workable?  The council is of course democratically appointed by us. 

yip, it is the total opposite to our system.. but you cannot deny that the commissioners are not elected..and cannot be removed by the people.. . remember the EU has not grown as an economic entity for 10 long years...along with antarctic, its the only major trading zone on the planet  that has that risible record..we are chained to a shrinking market..

[Guest MattP]

I thought European Council put forward proposed laws and it is up to commissioners to write it up and to make it workable?  The council is of course democratically appointed by us. 

 

Who do you mean by us? How many of the 28 commissioners did "we" appoint?

 

From the news I read we tried to veto the leader of it and got nowhere, so how it can be claimed he was democratically appointed by us when we didn;t want him is bizarre to say the least.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Some commenters argue that because the commissioners are appointed by elected governments it is a democratic process. That is guff and they know it. Cronyism is not democracy.

[Guest MattP]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/david-cameron-loses-jean-claude-juncker-vote-eu
 

David Cameron has suffered a humiliating defeat after EU leaders voted overwhelmingly in favour of nominating Jean-Claude Juncker as the next president of the European commission.

Minutes after the prime minister announced that EU leaders may live to regret the appointment of Juncker, the European council president, Herman Van Rompuy, tweeted that the former Luxembourg prime minister had been nominated.

"Decision made," Van Rompuy tweeted. "The European council proposes Jean-Claude Juncker as the next president of the European commission."

 

The vote in favour of Juncker was passed by 26 to two after Cameron won the support of only one other EU country – Hungary.

 

We didn't want him (along with Hungary), let alone democratically appoint him, we are forced into having him because other nation wanted him.

 

They is exactly why that if you believe in an independent state and that;s states right to govern itself and appoint people itself to govern, you have to vote to leave the European Union and therefore remove yourself from the commission..

[johnny the fox]

Who do you mean by us? How many of the 28 commissioners did "we" appoint?

 

From the news I read we tried to veto the leader of it and got nowhere, so how it can be claimed he was democratically appointed by us when we didn;t want him is bizarre to say the least.

most commissioners are politicians who have been rejected at the ballot box by their own electorate...ie: kinnockio (twice) and mandelson ...

[Guest MattP]

most commissioners are politicians who have been reject at the ballot box by their own electorate...ie: kinnockio (twice) and mandelson ...

 

In the Sunday Times last week they racked up the amount of money the Kinnock family has earnt out of the EU and it was roughly about 13 million quid, not bad work if you can get, think I'd vote to remain if my family could get in on that.

[Dodgy Bob]

Some commenters argue that because the commissioners are appointed by elected governments it is a democratic process. That is guff and they know it. Cronyism is not democracy.

It does make it somewhat democratic. If the voting public engaged more with EU politics then our government would be just as accountable for their decisions regarding the EU as they are for any other aspect of policy. We're a representative not a direct democracy so we vote for people to represent our interests. In that respect we as individuals have just as much democratic power over the EU as we do over domestic issues.

[Guest MattP]

It does make it somewhat democratic. If the voting public engaged more with EU politics then our government would be just as accountable for their decisions regarding the EU as they are for any other aspect of policy. We're a representative not a direct democracy so we vote for people to represent our interests. In that respect we as individuals have just as much democratic power over the EU as we do over domestic issues.

 

We are ruled by a person the British people never voted for and our own MEP's and Prime Minister voted against. We hold no democratic power whatsoever unless we go along with the majority.

[Guest MattP]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36565036

 

 

Former defence chief Lord Guthrie has switched sides to the Leave campaign in the EU referendum, saying he is worried by the prospect of "a European army".

In February the ex-chief of the defence staff signed a Downing Street letter calling for the UK to stay in the EU.

But he has told the Telegraph that was "a mistake" and said he believed a vote to Leave "is better for defence".

The government has previously said Britain will "never be part of an EU army".

[Strokes]

We are ruled by a person the British people never voted for and our own MEP's and Prime Minister voted against. We hold no democratic power whatsoever unless we go along with the majority.

Not to mention the controlling majority party in the council, is not even represented in this country. We couldn't possibly be on the sidelines anymore.

[The Blur]

Who do you mean by us? How many of the 28 commissioners did "we" appoint?

 

From the news I read we tried to veto the leader of it and got nowhere, so how it can be claimed he was democratically appointed by us when we didn;t want him is bizarre to say the least.

 

 

Eh?  I was referring to the council not the commission. It is clear as johnnythefox pointed out that commission is not elected by us but I was referring to the fact all countries elected their leaders who then sit in the council of course.  The system is not perfect of course but there is some element of democracy in it rather than none at all. 

[Alf Bentley]

Who do you mean by us? How many of the 28 commissioners did "we" appoint?

 

From the news I read we tried to veto the leader of it and got nowhere, so how it can be claimed he was democratically appointed by us when we didn;t want him is bizarre to say the least.

 

 

"We", the people of Leicester South, elected a Labour MP. "We", the people of the UK, elected a Tory government. So, despite "our" democratic appointment of Jon Ashworth, "we" get a load of legislation we didn't want.

 

"We", the people of the UK (via our PM) nominate 1 of the 28 commissioners, as does each other EU state. "We", the UK (Cameron), were unable to veto Juncker at the Council (NOT the Commission) because 26 out of 28 EU states supported him. That's democracy. An individual state cannot veto the nomination of someone who has the approval of 26 out of 28 states, any more than the Leicester South MP can veto the programme of the Tory Govt!

 

"We" then had a second opportunity at the European Parliament, where the number of MEPs is proportional to population: "we" (the people of the UK) had 73 out of 731 MEPs. Juncker's Commission was approved by 422-250, as that's how "we" (the people of Europe via our MEPs) voted. That's democracy.

 

What exactly are you proposing? That the UK should elect the entire European Commission and its President?! That the Commission/President should be directly elected across Europe? There's a case for that, but the voting system would need to be thought through or we might end up with an entirely German Commission, seeing as Germany has the largest population - and smaller countries would end up with no representative. There's a case for each country directly electing a Commissioner, but then the UK could still be outvoted 26-2, as it was over Juncker.

 

There might be an argument for bigger countries having more than 1 Commissioner, but you'd then end up with a Commission even more bloated than it already is - or smaller countries being excluded.

 

Instead, it is at the Council and at the European Parliament that we can exercise more power than smaller EU states: by having more MEPS, and more votes at Council under Qualified Majority Voting. "We", the people of the UK, can still lose votes at Parliament/Council, though, because "we", the people of Europe vote a different way. That's democracy! Complicated, imperfect, but democracy. It also answers The Blur's point.

 

 

If the EU democratically elected every EU institution, you would still oppose it, wouldn't you? You oppose the pooling of sovereignty - and support British (or English?) nationalism.

 

There's nothing wrong with being a nationalist (though it's not my politics), but you should be honest about it. To imply that it would be democratic for the UK to decide who runs the EU is ridiculous. I assume you just think that "democracy" sounds better than "nationalism" when you're trying to win support for Brexit?

[Thracian]

Maybe if they paid more than minimum wage they'd attract more native workers. A bloated workforce makes it an employers' market.

And immigrants who are prepared to live in crowded households can afford to work for lower wages.

 

 

I don't think it's as simple as that.

Some incomer groups are undercutting the minimum wage via their organiser or gangmaster. And they are living in illegal housing such as garages, lean-to's, illegal extensions and so on.

Slough was featured in the national media as a massive example.

By doing this the incomers are able to live on much lower wages to establish their foothold. Other things like pooled cars, cut-price cigarette sales and more give them further advantage.

In some incomer shops certain items are sold on a different basis to fellow incomers compared with the white British locals. Are people so naive as not to understand this?

Don't get me wrong, I don't really blame the incomers.  Once admitted,it's survival of the fittest, bravest, cleverest, riskiest, strongest, most organised etc and we Brits are falling way off the pace.

Why? Because we're not collectively streetwise, there's nothing to unite us and nothing we've been used to fighting for through all the years in which the Labour-luvvies started soft-soaping everyone from the cradle, through infant school and ever onwards.

Hell, some British workers such as mineworkers, dockers and car workers, even put themselves out of jobs with the gullible naivity they masked as militancy in the workplace. What wonderful own goals they were!  

Couple all the above with more incomers in positions of authority and it's hardly surprising some blind eyes are turned as has already been dramatically shown with the underage sex gangs over many years.  

Anyone pretending it's a level playing field out there is kidding themselves. The anti-white-British male downgrading is pronounced and plain to see, especially on television.

Even the immigration figures ignore the illegals, yet there's every indication they run into many thousands yet even they get absorbed one way or another, presumably at a price.              

[DJ Barry Hammond]

@@Thracian

Your rank double standards is quite frankly astonishing.

[Thracian]

"We", the people of Leicester South, elected a Labour MP. "We", the people of the UK, elected a Tory government. So, despite "our" democratic appointment of Jon Ashworth, "we" get a load of legislation we didn't want.

 

"We", the people of the UK (via our PM) nominate 1 of the 28 commissioners, as does each other EU state. "We", the UK (Cameron), were unable to veto Juncker at the Council (NOT the Commission) because 26 out of 28 EU states supported him. That's democracy. An individual state cannot veto the nomination of someone who has the approval of 26 out of 28 states, any more than the Leicester South MP can veto the programme of the Tory Govt!

 

"We" then had a second opportunity at the European Parliament, where the number of MEPs is proportional to population: "we" (the people of the UK) had 73 out of 731 MEPs. Juncker's Commission was approved by 422-250, as that's how "we" (the people of Europe via our MEPs) voted. That's democracy.

 

What exactly are you proposing? That the UK should elect the entire European Commission and its President?! That the Commission/President should be directly elected across Europe? There's a case for that, but the voting system would need to be thought through or we might end up with an entirely German Commission, seeing as Germany has the largest population - and smaller countries would end up with no representative. There's a case for each country directly electing a Commissioner, but then the UK could still be outvoted 26-2, as it was over Juncker.

 

There might be an argument for bigger countries having more than 1 Commissioner, but you'd then end up with a Commission even more bloated than it already is - or smaller countries being excluded.

 

Instead, it is at the Council and at the European Parliament that we can exercise more power than smaller EU states: by having more MEPS, and more votes at Council under Qualified Majority Voting. "We", the people of the UK, can still lose votes at Parliament/Council, though, because "we", the people of Europe vote a different way. That's democracy! Complicated, imperfect, but democracy. It also answers The Blur's point.

 

 

If the EU democratically elected every EU institution, you would still oppose it, wouldn't you? You oppose the pooling of sovereignty - and support British (or English?) nationalism.

 

There's nothing wrong with being a nationalist (though it's not my politics), but you should be honest about it. To imply that it would be democratic for the UK to decide who runs the EU is ridiculous. I assume you just think that "democracy" sounds better than "nationalism" when you're trying to win support for Brexit?

 

 

You make an excellent case for regaining our independence and even waving goodbye to democracy which, as you know, i've never felt at ease with because it's clear apparent that any democracy can vote in a whole lot of trouble with shrewdly organised manipulation!

[Thracian]

@@Thracian

Your rank double standards is quite frankly astonishing.

 

 

You can't apply a single standard to any of the above. Some people are admirable, others the opposite.

 

Slough Council, for instance, refers to the problem I mentioned fairly unambiguously.

 

 http://www.slough.gov.uk/housing/outbuildings-and-the-law.aspx

[Guest MattP]

No Alf I don't present the view we should elect the EU commissioners. The point about Labour is different as you are part of a nation, I don't see Europe as a nation. I see Britain as totally independent of it. Leicester South isn't an independent nation, if it wants to be it can try though providing the people want that.

I express the view that we are an independent nation and independent nations should elect the officials who precide over them, that doesn't happen in Europe, I don't like using the word "nationalist" because of the connotations with it, especially at this point in time.

As far as I'm concerned if we want to stay in this project they we should commit to it fully, it's not my choice but there will come a time where we probably have to decide whether we do that or withdraw.

[johnny the fox]

In the Sunday Times last week they racked up the amount of money the Kinnock family has earnt out of the EU and it was roughly about 13 million quid, not bad work if you can get, think I'd vote to remain if my family could get in on that.

not bad.. i wonder which way brother kinnock is  urging electorate to vote...

 

What really wracks me off with politicians is they constantly want to reform and effect our lives but  never want to reform themselves and how they do things..that is partly why I want out of the take it or leave it EU..

[Dr The Singh]

not bad.. i wonder which way brother kinnock is urging electorate to vote...

What really wracks me off with politicians is they constantly want to reform and effect our lives but never want to reform themselves and how they do things..that is partly why I want out of the take it or leave it EU..

This is why politics is so attractive to someone like me, who for £££'s is willing to sell his mother

[johnny the fox]

This is why politics is so attractive to someone like me, who for £££'s is willing to sell his mother

can I make an offer?

[johnny the fox]

The man behind the EU... https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet    

 

Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.

 

Read more at: http://www.azquotes.com/quote/652157    his most famous quote..If that doesn't worry you nothing will....

[bovril]

It'll never happen as the people of Europe won't allow it to happen. Most of Europe is much more nationalistic than the UK.

[Alf Bentley]

No Alf I don't present the view we should elect the EU commissioners. The point about Labour is different as you are part of a nation, I don't see Europe as a nation. I see Britain as totally independent of it. Leicester South isn't an independent nation, if it wants to be it can try though providing the people want that.

I express the view that we are an independent nation and independent nations should elect the officials who precide over them, that doesn't happen in Europe, I don't like using the word "nationalist" because of the connotations with it, especially at this point in time.

As far as I'm concerned if we want to stay in this project they we should commit to it fully, it's not my choice but there will come a time where we probably have to decide whether we do that or withdraw.

 

 

Your response demonstrates your nationalist outlook. A nation doesn't inevitably lose its independence by pooling some of its sovereignty in an international organisation.

The UK pools its sovereignty over defence in NATO, and then there's the UN.....the "United Nations". Similarly, LCFC doesn't cease to be an independent football club by pooling sovereignty in the Premier League.

Even more pertinently, the nation of England pools its sovereignty in the nation state of the UK. I'm unclear whether you're an English nationalist or a British nationalist (a partisan of the nation state of the UK), though.

 

I can understand your reluctance to describe yourself as a "nationalist", given some of its connotations (particularly at the moment). But nationalism isn't necessarily associated with the Far Right or people opposed to democracy. Plaid Cymru, the SNP and the SDLP are among many parties that would describe themselves as "nationalists".

 

I assume that you're a nationalist and a democrat - but that your attitude to Brexit is mainly motivated by your nationalism. Your reply seems to confirm that - even a democratically elected Commission would be invalid, it seems.

 

 

You make an excellent case for regaining our independence and even waving goodbye to democracy which, as you know, i've never felt at ease with because it's clear apparent that any democracy can vote in a whole lot of trouble with shrewdly organised manipulation!

 

 

Thracian's reply, in contrast, seems to confirm that he is a nationalist - and NOT a democrat!