The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Guest]

Foxes Never Quit.

There seems to be a last minute swing back to remain, just like in the Scottish referendum. Project fear has done its job.

 

Project fear 

 

What the Turks are going to take over England.

[apple987]

Traitors to the country. There's going to be big regrets in a few years time. Shame

[apple987]

There seems to be a last minute swing back to remain, just like in the Scottish referendum. Project fear has done its job.

I think it's because it's got to the point now where all news outlets are remain propaganda. Only positive things for remaining in EU are broadcast and only negative things for leaving EU are broadcast. Its next to impossible to win a referendum when this is the case unfortunately. This is the first time I've ever really shown an interest in politics, and it will be the last time too. Full of corruption, propaganda and all down to personal wealth.

[Alf Bentley]

There seems to be a last minute swing back to remain, just like in the Scottish referendum. Project fear has done its job.

 

 

Both campaigns have been guilty of misinformation and exaggeration. Both have been a disgrace to the democratic process.

 

Has Leave lost momentum? If so, that could be due to fears stirred up by the Remain campaign - or to disbelief of misinformation from Leave. It could also be due to a last-minute tendency to opt for the status quo. Then again, some people who intended to vote Leave might be having second thoughts about the forces they might unleash at the most extreme end of nationalism, after the Jo Cox murder.

 

However, the polls are still effectively predicting a dead heat. Still all to play for, with 3 days left, particularly as Leave voters tend to be older and more committed, so more likely to vote.

 

I see Baroness Warsi has "quit the Leave campaign". A PR blow to them, but I'm surprised to hear she was on that side at all. If she's really quitting due to Farage's racist poster, that wasn't even part of the official campaign, was it? Gove said he "shuddered" at it. Sounds like more manipulation, to file alongside "we're going to be swamped by Turks" & "we're going to get £350m per week back to spend on 100 different projects" (Leave) and  "we risk WW3" & "the economic sky is going to fall in" (Remain). 

[johnny the fox]

What's that got to do with someone posting a photo from the guardian?

think the photo has become a fetish for you now..  I can't help you or offer anymore..  

[SMX11]

Both campaigns have been guilty of misinformation and exaggeration. Both have been a disgrace to the democratic process.

Has Leave lost momentum? If so, that could be due to fears stirred up by the Remain campaign - or to disbelief of misinformation from Leave. It could also be due to a last-minute tendency to opt for the status quo. Then again, some people who intended to vote Leave might be having second thoughts about the forces they might unleash at the most extreme end of nationalism, after the Jo Cox murder.

However, the polls are still effectively predicting a dead heat. Still all to play for, with 3 days left, particularly as Leave voters tend to be older and more committed, so more likely to vote.

I see Baroness Warsi has "quit the Leave campaign". A PR blow to them, but I'm surprised to hear she was on that side at all. If she's really quitting due to Farage's racist poster, that wasn't even part of the official campaign, was it? Gove said he "shuddered" at it. Sounds like more manipulation, to file alongside "we're going to be swamped by Turks" & "we're going to get £350m per week back to spend on 100 different projects" (Leave) and "we risk WW3" & "the economic sky is going to fall in" (Remain).

Warsi stinks of stage managed 'defection' typical of the Cameron machine. I don't think she even joined any of the vote leave groups? I may be wrong though.

[johnny the fox]

Should opinion / exit poles be banned at least a month before we vote? they seem to be shaping the campaign and attitudes as each one is released... I understand hedge funds and private financial institutions are commissioning them and are making vast amounts of money on the outcome of each one. as the the pound and shares yo yo 's on the markets..

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Traitors to the country. There's going to be big regrets in a few years time. Shame

What's that supposed to mean? Care to expand further?

I think it's because it's got to the point now where all news outlets are remain propaganda. Only positive things for remaining in EU are broadcast and only negative things for leaving EU are broadcast. Its next to impossible to win a referendum when this is the case unfortunately. This is the first time I've ever really shown an interest in politics, and it will be the last time too. Full of corruption, propaganda and all down to personal wealth.

It's far too easy to scapegoat the media, but I think on balance (and I've taken in the majority of TV programmes and done a fair bit of reading), they have done a fantastic job of holding both campaigns to account.

Rather than your broad brush approach, can you point to me of a particular instance where there has been 'bias' that has drawn you out of your seat enough to complain to the appropiate body?

[Jimothy]

think the photo has become a fetish for you now.. I can't help you or offer anymore..

Answer the question.

[James.]

My issue now is that the people who want to Leave for the right reasons are completely dwarfed by the amount of people who want to Leave for the wrong reasons. I genuinely fear for the sort of society we would live in if those in the latter category get the endorsement through this referendum that they want. I've been yo-yo-ing like a bastard these last couple of weeks but ultimately at this point I think we're better in than out.

[Thracian]

Warsi's seemed shallow as a puddle and trustworthy as an illusionist.

I'd sooner see Alf referred to in the National press - at the very least I'd get some sense and sincerity.

In a society for tokenist politics she'd make the ideal figurehead. 

She's been to the Leave campaign what my missus is to the advance of international sprint techniques.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

My issue now is that the people who want to Leave for the right reasons are completely dwarfed by the amount of people who want to Leave for the wrong reasons. I genuinely fear for the sort of society we would live in if those in the latter category get the endorsement through this referendum that they want. I've been yo-yo-ing like a bastard these last couple of weeks but ultimately at this point I think we're better in than out.

It's a strong reason why I couldn't back leave in its state - you don't actually know what you're backing.

The reality is, they've gone for "The rainbow of what could happen" rather than group together and agree on and give the public a clear vision of what they want to happen with an exit.

True, the "take back control" phrase is a punchy line that was cutting through... but it'd be a lot more credible if it was clear what was going to be done with that control - and with some of the own goal tall truths being used as well, it's not going to swing enough of the centre ground.

[Thracian]

What's that supposed to mean? Care to expand further?

It's far too easy to scapegoat the media, but I think on balance (and I've taken in the majority of TV programmes and done a fair bit of reading), they have done a fantastic job of holding both campaigns to account.

Rather than your broad brush approach, can you point to me of a particular instance where there has been 'bias' that has drawn you out of your seat enough to complain to the appropiate body?

 

 

Haha - cleverly put! 

[Strokes]

My issue now is that the people who want to Leave for the right reasons are completely dwarfed by the amount of people who want to Leave for the wrong reasons. I genuinely fear for the sort of society we would live in if those in the latter category get the endorsement through this referendum that they want. I've been yo-yo-ing like a bastard these last couple of weeks but ultimately at this point I think we're better in than out.

See I can empathise with your point of view, it's such a shame that the debate has allowed itself to take this direction and left those with of you with a left side POV feeling isolated. I think that will actually be what decides the debate.

[Thracian]

It's a strong reason why I couldn't back leave in its state - you don't actually know what you're backing.

The reality is, they've gone for "The rainbow of what could happen" rather than group together and agree on and give the public a clear vision of what they want to happen with an exit.

True, the "take back control" phrase is a punchy line that was cutting through... but it'd be a lot more credible if it was clear what was going to be done with that control - and with some of the own goal tall truths being used as well, it's not going to swing enough of the centre ground.

 

 

I feel exactly the same about Labour and the Conservatives. I have no trust in either. 

[Finnegan]

There seems to be a last minute swing back to remain, just like in the Scottish referendum. Project fear has done its job.

You mean project common sense, I suppose?

People vote with their wallets, that's a universal truth.

The scotch Leave campaign had a ridiculous amount of unanswered questions, as does the EU Leave campaign. People want some economic certainties. They want answers.

The average Joe in the street doesn't give a shit about Farage warbling on about borders and taking back control, he wants to know his bank balance is safe. The same man going on prime time, pre election, terrestrial tv saying "yeah, so the GBP will probably take an immediate hit" does more damage than "PROJECT FEAR!"

And that's the problem. Leave wants to have an argument that should be about money and common sense be all about THEM IMGRUNTS and every time they're challenged on that it's "OH YOU'RE FEARMONGERING." Well, no, they're asking very legitimate questions and not getting any answers.

I wouldn't compare the brexit campaign to Nazi Germany, that's obviously daft, but I would compare it to Salmond's bid in that it's all style, no substance. All emotion, no issue.

[apple987]

Can't believe cameron has said Isis want a brexit.

Surely it benefits them for us to remain due to easy access into the country.

[bovril]

You mean project common sense, I suppose?

People vote with their wallets, that's a universal truth.

The scotch Leave campaign had a ridiculous amount of unanswered questions, as does the EU Leave campaign. People want some economic certainties. They want answers.

The average Joe in the street doesn't give a shit about Farage warbling on about borders and taking back control, he wants to know his bank balance is safe. The same man going on prime time, pre election, terrestrial tv saying "yeah, so the GBP will probably take an immediate hit" does more damage than "PROJECT FEAR!"

And that's the problem. Leave wants to have an argument that should be about money and common sense be all about THEM IMGRUNTS and every time they're challenged on that it's "OH YOU'RE FEARMONGERING." Well, no, they're asking very legitimate questions and not getting any answers.

I wouldn't compare the brexit campaign to Nazi Germany, that's obviously daft, but I would compare it to Salmond's bid in that it's all style, no substance. All emotion, no issue.

 

I actually think one of the failings of the remain camp has been not making enough of an emotional case. I'd argue that a lot of people don't want answers, they want blind optimism and an emotive cause they can latch on to. I suppose in that respect 'out' has an advantage, as single issue referenda like these attract people with all sorts of gripes who naturally lean towards the anti-establishment vote.

[Strokes]

You mean project common sense, I suppose?

People vote with their wallets, that's a universal truth.

The scotch Leave campaign had a ridiculous amount of unanswered questions, as does the EU Leave campaign. People want some economic certainties. They want answers.

The average Joe in the street doesn't give a shit about Farage warbling on about borders and taking back control, he wants to know his bank balance is safe. The same man going on prime time, pre election, terrestrial tv saying "yeah, so the GBP will probably take an immediate hit" does more damage than "PROJECT FEAR!"

And that's the problem. Leave wants to have an argument that should be about money and common sense be all about THEM IMGRUNTS and every time they're challenged on that it's "OH YOU'RE FEARMONGERING." Well, no, they're asking very legitimate questions and not getting any answers.

I wouldn't compare the brexit campaign to Nazi Germany, that's obviously daft, but I would compare it to Salmond's bid in that it's all style, no substance. All emotion, no issue.

Did you watch the lexit movie pot by Johnny a few pages back?

[Finnegan]

I actually think one of the failings of the remain camp has been not making enough of an emotional case. I'd argue that a lot of people don't want answers, they want blind optimism and an emotive cause they can latch on to. I suppose in that respect 'out' has an advantage, as single issue referenda like these attract people with all sorts of gripes who naturally lean towards the anti-establishment vote.

I think that might be true publicly, that's why Leave seemed to be doing so well for such a long time. All the tabloids are screaming about immigrants and that we should leave. They started off well in the polls et all.

But when you get close and especially when people get in to those voting booths, the quiet majority win out by voting with one eye on their bank balance.

I think that's the nature of this country.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I actually think one of the failings of the remain camp has been not making enough of an emotional case. I'd argue that a lot of people don't want answers, they want blind optimism and an emotive cause they can latch on to. I suppose in that respect 'out' has an advantage, as single issue referenda like these attract people with all sorts of gripes who naturally lean towards the anti-establishment vote.

Think you'll find, it's a bit of both - optimism is catchy at first, it will draw attention, but if it's based on blind faith many will declare its not for them. But equally, an argument based purely on the wallet can also feel distasteful - for a silly example, in theory we could become a richer economy by invading and taking over several small islands... but only a small minority would be interested in voting for that these days.

Like anything in life you have to have balance in order to win a broad appeal - which is key in any democracy. Often the problem with political campaigns is that they are run by people that are passionately supportive of the position they're fighting for, giving them a blind spot for weaknesses that they'd rather not discuss / embrace and the focus tends to be on getting people to join their cause... rather than developing a message so it appeals to a wider prospectus.

[Thracian]

Can't believe cameron has said Isis want a brexit.

Surely it benefits them for us to remain due to easy access into the country.

 

 

 

Not necessarily

[Guest MattP]

How aanyone can describe a emergency budget based on lies of 30 billion cuts and tax rises as "project common sense" is beyond belief, it was the biggest piece of scaremongering in the whole campaign by a country mile. It's amazing what some people allow Tories to get away with if they agree with them.

Farage might be about to get what he really wants as well, a close remain vote that sends him to the commons.

Certainly has been a swing back to remain this week, I did fear it. Even more so after

recent events.

Cameron being called Neville Chamberlain was terrific on QT last nIght.

[Innovindil]

How can people say "I don't like leave because they haven't said what they will do if we leave"

How the hell can they when it will still be the same European loving monkey still in charge? If they knew for sure they would be put into power after the exit then I'm sure they would set out a plan on what they want to happen. For now all they can do is offer options.

Personally I'm voting out, mainly due to the fact I once worked at argos, where cheap easy labour is destroying options for British workers with filthy zero hour contacts.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

How can people say "I don't like leave because they haven't said what they will do if we leave"

How the hell can they when it will still be the same European loving monkey still in charge? If they knew for sure they would be put into power after the exit then I'm sure they would set out a plan on what they want to happen. For now all they can do is offer options.

Personally I'm voting out, mainly due to the fact I once worked at argos, where cheap easy labour is destroying options for British workers with filthy zero hour contacts.

Ok, so you've put your reasoning - who on the Leave side has mentioned about making changes to zero hours contracts? Are you sure this is a priority for the prominent people on the leave campaign? If an out vote is sucessful, what is the key demand, over everything else, that leave will insist on in the renegotiations?