The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Thracian]

I actually think one of the failings of the remain camp has been not making enough of an emotional case. I'd argue that a lot of people don't want answers, they want blind optimism and an emotive cause they can latch on to. I suppose in that respect 'out' has an advantage, as single issue referenda like these attract people with all sorts of gripes who naturally lean towards the anti-establishment vote.

 

 

I don't and can't speak for others (unlike some on here) but I want out for reasons which include hope and movement towards the following:

 

* A curb on immigration.

* A means by which we control admission according to our needs and our safety considerations.

* An end to this land being a magnet for migrants.

* An end to inner-city ghettos however they've been allowed to come about.

* An end to the no-go areas which are always denied but clearly exist to one degree or another.

* I want vulnerable young people in our cities to be safe again from exploitative sex and drugs gangs.

* An end to overcrowding and incomer overload in our schools.

* An end to religious indoctrination of any kind. 

* An end to the ever-lengthening queues in our hospitals for less serious situations.

*An end to the problems of being able to deport undesirables.

*An end to being dictated to by bullying EU bureaucrats.

* An end to the constant stream of often petty EU directives.

* A return to gradually being in charge of our decision-making again.

* A return to being able to freely develop trade with the world on terms that we consider best and most suitable.

* An end to being manipulated by other people with other agendas.

* An end to being subject to the ridiculously flawed Human Rights legislation.

* An end to being part to anything we don't want and doesn't suit our own outlook.  

* An end to any chance of someone like Erdogan being associated with us. I don't trust him and never will. 

* The distancing of ourselves from Obama influence. See above.    

 

All I've said is just for starters.

I am utterly sick of the social engineering which has caused so much harm not just here but in so many other places across all of Europe. Quite how and why we have signed away so much control is beyond me. And quite why the EU is systematically irking Russia at US behest is also beyond acceptable comprehension.  

 

Quite why any Brit would be against our aspiring to get control back, however long it takes and whatever the hurdles along the way, I don't know.

It is time to stop being party to our own exploitation It is time to stop outsiders taking the piss and it is time to stop British people being downgraded and treated with contempt.

 

If anyone wants to come to this country, make an ongoing contribution for the better, love this land, respect its people and not try to take unfair advantage, then I'm on their side.

 

If anyone wants to come here to exploit our generosity, our goodwill, our freedoms, our laws and our collective wellbeing they can sod off whether they come from the EU or anywhere else.              

 

I don't pretend leaving the EU will end the problems I've referred to overnight - or that they will ever end completely.

 

But every journey needs a starting point and continuing to be beholden to the blinkered power-mad ambition and cynical manipulative conditioning of the EU hardly bears thinking about.

 

We should be setting an example not following the whims of those who would so plainly threaten, punish and bully us for challenging their dominance and deceptively acquired authority.

 

Indeed, should we show the sanity to leave the EU, any new co-operation with the EU would require the resignation of Juncker and his replacement with someone who would never dream of  threatening our wellbeing. The man is so beneath contempt I wouldn't want to share a drink with him never mind a future.        

[Beliall]

How much truth in this?

 

[Alf Bentley]

How can people say "I don't like leave because they haven't said what they will do if we leave"

How the hell can they when it will still be the same European loving monkey still in charge? If they knew for sure they would be put into power after the exit then I'm sure they would set out a plan on what they want to happen. For now all they can do is offer options.

Personally I'm voting out, mainly due to the fact I once worked at argos, where cheap easy labour is destroying options for British workers with filthy zero hour contacts.

 

 

You want the UK to leave the EU because of "filthy zero-hour contracts"?!? The UK leads the rest of Europe in the use of zero-hours contracts. The issue is under UK not EU control - although Labour MEPs are trying to get the EU to intervene to stop the spread of zero-hours contracts and the Commission has criticised the UK for its extensive use of zero-hours contracts. Why not protest against headaches by bashing your head against a wall, while you're at it! 

http://www.igloballaw.com/zero-hours-contracts/

"Zero-hours contracts are NOT permitted in: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Spain. There is an uncertainty as to their validity in Sweden".

 

If there's a Leave vote, Cameron won't be in charge for long. The majority of his MPs and party members are Eurosceptics. He might stay on for some of the negotiations, provided the Brexit people have some control over those negotiations - there's talk of Gove being appointed as chief negotiator. Alternatively, he might be gone (voluntarily or involuntarily) within days of a Brexit vote.

 

It's very reasonable to ask the Leave camp what they'll do if we leave. They're giving the impression that we'll be able to "control our own borders" while continuing to trade with the EU pretty much as before. Nobody in their right mind believes this. If we leave, we'll have a choice between (a) Controlling our own borders and leaving the single market, doing trade deals on much less favourable terms; or (b) Retaining access to the single market and trading as before, continuing to accept the free movement of labour and continuing to pay EU contributions. There might be compromises at the margins, but those are essentially the 2 options that the UK will have if it leaves the EU.

 

Just think....

- "Free movement of labour" is a cornerstone of the single market, written into treaties.

- If we Brexit, we'll have just created all sorts of headaches for the EU.

- The UK relies on the EU for 45%-53% of its trade, whereas the EU only relies on the UK for 16% of its trade.

- The EU will want to discourage other countries from leaving the EU

In those circumstances, why the hell would the EU sign generous trade deals with a post-Brexit UK?!?

If you believe that's possible, you should go to Barcelona, shit all over the Nou Camp pitch and then ask them to swap Lionel Messi for Danny Simpson. 

[The Railway Man]

I've just got to say well done to everyone in this thread, it's been a great read.

 

The fervent leavers (Matt, Thracian, Webbo etc) and the remainers (DJ Barry Hammond, Alf Bentley) have often put better points across than a lot of the politicians in this debate.

[Beliall]

can we have a debate with those 6 posters please

[SMX11]

You want the UK to leave the EU because of "filthy zero-hour contracts"?!? The UK leads the rest of Europe in the use of zero-hours contracts. The issue is under UK not EU control - although Labour MEPs are trying to get the EU to intervene to stop the spread of zero-hours contracts and the Commission has criticised the UK for its extensive use of zero-hours contracts. Why not protest against headaches by bashing your head against a wall, while you're at it!

http://www.igloballaw.com/zero-hours-contracts/

"Zero-hours contracts are NOT permitted in: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Spain. There is an uncertainty as to their validity in Sweden".

If there's a Leave vote, Cameron won't be in charge for long. The majority of his MPs and party members are Eurosceptics. He might stay on for some of the negotiations, provided the Brexit people have some control over those negotiations - there's talk of Gove being appointed as chief negotiator. Alternatively, he might be gone (voluntarily or involuntarily) within days of a Brexit vote.

It's very reasonable to ask the Leave camp what they'll do if we leave. They're giving the impression that we'll be able to "control our own borders" while continuing to trade with the EU pretty much as before. Nobody in their right mind believes this. If we leave, we'll have a choice between (a) Controlling our own borders and leaving the single market, doing trade deals on much less favourable terms; or (b) Retaining access to the single market and trading as before, continuing to accept the free movement of labour and continuing to pay EU contributions. There might be compromises at the margins, but those are essentially the 2 options that the UK will have if it leaves the EU.

Just think....

- "Free movement of labour" is a cornerstone of the single market, written into treaties.

- If we Brexit, we'll have just created all sorts of headaches for the EU.

- The UK relies on the EU for 45%-53% of its trade, whereas the EU only relies on the UK for 16% of its trade.

- The EU will want to discourage other countries from leaving the EU

In those circumstances, why the hell would the EU sign generous trade deals with a post-Brexit UK?!?

If you believe that's possible, you should go to Barcelona, shit all over the Nou Camp pitch and then ask them to swap Lionel Messi for Danny Simpson.

Trade is mutually beneficial or it wouldn't occur. They just benefit more in absolute value from being in the single market than we do. The question is do we continue being apart of a single regulatory area which in my view has become more burdensome to our whole economy than the 'cost' of tarrifs?

We could even go for unilateral free trade and lobby individual countries or groups to remove the tariff barriers against us under WTO rules.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

can we have a debate with those 6 posters please

Quite sad of me, but I was tempted to private message Matt and suggest something like that might be an idea... Then I decided I didn't want the bother!

[Jon the Hat]

I like this thread, mainly because it reminds me that there is a broad church in the leave campaign, from fervent racist morons to those who want us to welcome and trade freely with the world outside the EU not tie ourselves to a shrinking customs union, and we should not judge leavers on the basis of the idiots who get the publicity.

[Beliall]

Quite sad of me, but I was tempted to private message Matt and suggest something like that might be an idea... Then I decided I didn't want the bother!

 

I would certainly find it helpful to read a thread with only contributions from those who clearly know what they are talking about. Vote is on thursday and I swing from in to out daily, thanks to the media.  Both options seem to have benefits

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I would certainly find it helpful to read a thread with only contributions from those who clearly know what they are talking about. Vote is on thursday and I swing from in to out daily, thanks to the media.  Both options seem to have benefits

What are the key areas for discussion in your opinion?

[Finnegan]

I like this thread, mainly because it reminds me that there is a broad church in the leave campaign, from fervent racist morons to those who want us to welcome and trade freely with the world outside the EU not tie ourselves to a shrinking customs union, and we should not judge leavers on the basis of the idiots who get the publicity.

Which is why it's such a shame that so much of the Leave campaign's most lasting publicity and campaigning has been dominated by moronic, xenophobic sentiment.

I'm pretty close to the fence myself, I'm not rampantly pro-EU. There's as big a lefty argument against as there is for.

Yet the most vocal leave supporters have always let down those who awkwardly share their camp by repeatedly making the issue about an irrational fear of eastern European migrants and sometimes flat out racism.

[Beliall]

What are the key areas for discussion in your opinion?

 

What would be the real cost of leaving? how bad could it be, and the opposite, the real benefits. I would like our own elected government to control our country, rather than the EU, and be able to deport whoever we need to, known terrorists for example. But if i vote leave, will that actually happen? Would it destabilise our government now its split between leave or stay? 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Trade is mutually beneficial or it wouldn't occur. They just benefit more in absolute value from being in the single market than we do. The question is do we continue being apart of a single regulatory area which in my view has become more burdensome to our whole economy than the 'cost' of tarrifs?

We could even go for unilateral free trade and lobby individual countries or groups to remove the tariff barriers against us under WTO rules.

Interesting you suggest unilateral free trade - because I think that's what the leading economic figures at the top of the leave campaign would push for. I'm not sure, however, Britain is in any position to move that way at present (you'd need a much more sure footed economy) and your ordinary worker wouldn't understand how big a threat that could be to their own position.

[Thracian]

can we have a debate with those 6 posters please

 

It may surprise some but I've far more respect for the argumentative sincerity of those mentioned than some of the forked-tongued fear-mongers I've heard avoiding questions on television. 

[Innovindil]

You want the UK to leave the EU because of "filthy zero-hour contracts"?!? The UK leads the rest of Europe in the use of zero-hours contracts. The issue is under UK not EU control - although Labour MEPs are trying to get the EU to intervene to stop the spread of zero-hours contracts and the Commission has criticised the UK for its extensive use of zero-hours contracts. Why not protest against headaches by bashing your head against a wall, while you're at it!

http://www.igloballaw.com/zero-hours-contracts/

"Zero-hours contracts are NOT permitted in: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Spain. There is an uncertainty as to their validity in Sweden".

If there's a Leave vote, Cameron won't be in charge for long. The majority of his MPs and party members are Eurosceptics. He might stay on for some of the negotiations, provided the Brexit people have some control over those negotiations - there's talk of Gove being appointed as chief negotiator. Alternatively, he might be gone (voluntarily or involuntarily) within days of a Brexit vote.

It's very reasonable to ask the Leave camp what they'll do if we leave. They're giving the impression that we'll be able to "control our own borders" while continuing to trade with the EU pretty much as before. Nobody in their right mind believes this. If we leave, we'll have a choice between (a) Controlling our own borders and leaving the single market, doing trade deals on much less favourable terms; or (b) Retaining access to the single market and trading as before, continuing to accept the free movement of labour and continuing to pay EU contributions. There might be compromises at the margins, but those are essentially the 2 options that the UK will have if it leaves the EU.

Just think....

- "Free movement of labour" is a cornerstone of the single market, written into treaties.

- If we Brexit, we'll have just created all sorts of headaches for the EU.

- The UK relies on the EU for 45%-53% of its trade, whereas the EU only relies on the UK for 16% of its trade.

- The EU will want to discourage other countries from leaving the EU

In those circumstances, why the hell would the EU sign generous trade deals with a post-Brexit UK?!?

If you believe that's possible, you should go to Barcelona, shit all over the Nou Camp pitch and then ask them to swap Lionel Messi for Danny Simpson.

Jesus, where to begin. The government obviously is all about the money, which has been seen by economy economy economy approach in these debates, so why on earth would they do something to hurt the fatcats, and thus, the economy?

So the easiest way to deal with it is to reduce the ease of getting cheap labour from Europe.

About the trading thing, the main argument of the leave side is although we only count for a low percentage of the WHOLE of Europe, we still send out more than we bring in. Will they really cut off their noses to spite us? We're the 5th biggest economy in the world, not some backwater 3rd rate country who wouldn't be noticed missing.

And again, Cameron has stated that he will stay and nothing is saying he can't / won't. So again, there are no assurances on who will be in charge after an exit. You're asking people to make promises on what will happen when they can't guarantee them. A la Cameron's "we'll get migration down below 100k" empty promises.

[Nick]

I don't and can't speak for others (unlike some on here) but I want out for reasons which include hope and movement towards the following:

 

* A curb on immigration.

* A means by which we control admission according to our needs and our safety considerations.

* An end to this land being a magnet for migrants.

* An end to inner-city ghettos however they've been allowed to come about.

* An end to the no-go areas which are always denied but clearly exist to one degree or another.

* I want vulnerable young people in our cities to be safe again from exploitative sex and drugs gangs.

* An end to overcrowding and incomer overload in our schools.

* An end to religious indoctrination of any kind. 

* An end to the ever-lengthening queues in our hospitals for less serious situations.

*An end to the problems of being able to deport undesirables.

*An end to being dictated to by bullying EU bureaucrats.

* An end to the constant stream of often petty EU directives.

* A return to gradually being in charge of our decision-making again.

* A return to being able to freely develop trade with the world on terms that we consider best and most suitable.

* An end to being manipulated by other people with other agendas.

* An end to being subject to the ridiculously flawed Human Rights legislation.

* An end to being part to anything we don't want and doesn't suit our own outlook.  

* An end to any chance of someone like Erdogan being associated with us. I don't trust him and never will. 

* The distancing of ourselves from Obama influence. See above.    

 

 

 

 

Xenophobia at its absolute finest.

[Finnegan]

You're aware that a reasonable economy is good for more than just fatcats, right? I mean, it's in your interest as well.

Also, as far as I'm aware, there isn't a different minimum wage purely for Polish people who come over to work in Argos.

They're no cheaper than you are, they're apparently just less likely to bitch and quit over a zero hour contract which is enabled through UK law.

But yknow.

(edit: I'm with you on zero hour contracts btw, but they're our government's fault, not the mainland's)

[The Railway Man]

Xenophobia at its absolute finest.

 

And the opposite to the good posters I mentioned is nonsense like this, just screaming racist or xenophobe at anyone daring to put across a different opinion.

[Nick]

And the opposite to the good posters I mentioned is nonsense like this, just screaming racist or xenophobe at anyone daring to put across a different opinion.

 

 

There's nothing 'different' about Tony's opinion - just about every single point on his list relates to a small minded fear of other nations and ethnicities.

[bovril]

And the opposite to the good posters I mentioned is nonsense like this, just screaming racist or xenophobe at anyone daring to put across a different opinion.

 

I've noticed people doing this a lot. Someone makes a genuinely xenophobic comment, another calls them out on it, and then we get all the crap about the 'loony left playing the racist / xenophobe card'.

 

The 'leave' side play the race card just as much if not more than the remainers. Just in a different way.

[z-layrex]

Voted out today. Changed my mind many times over the past month, but there you go.

[Nick]

Theres a whole host of reasons that make leaving the EU a potentially attractive proposition and in the main they relate to resources, sustainability a developing UK underclass and the direction of the EU. Its just really sad that most of the Leave campaign including my own relatives of a certain age seem to think its a magic bullet for every joke of a concern their chosen newspaper alarms them to each morning.

[Finnegan]

And the opposite to the good posters I mentioned is nonsense like this, just screaming racist or xenophobe at anyone daring to put across a different opinion.

But he's right.

I've got a hell of a lot of time for Jon the Hat, James (although he'd probably grumble at me putting him in the Tory bracket!), MattP and others. I don't usually agree with their politics but they take the time to understand issues, they do their research, they read a lot, they're well informed.

They're all very bright, Matt especially is an excellent communicator and I bet he's a great orator (though we've still not been introduced.)

Tony, (Thracian) by contrast, has been spewing constant rubbish on this forum for about a decade and it's never really differed. He dresses up silly, wild nonsense as well reasoned opinion merely by articulating it with fairly good English.

What he just posted WAS a fairly classic example of baseless xenophobia and WAS pretty much exactly the frothing-at-the-mouth stupidity that James and Jon (whether the latter specifically meant Thracian or not I don't know) are bemoaning being associated with and rightly so.

I have no personal issue with anyone on this site (or off it) based on their personal, political, opinion. One of my favourite people in the whole world (offline) is a rampant Tory/UKIP sympathiser! Matt would love her!

But time after time, Thracian has contributed hateful, ignorant and small minded shit on Foxestalk that's exposed him as prejudiced and unpleasant.

I'm sorry for the personal assault, I'm aware it's not in-keeping with the spirit of this thread and I'll trust Webbo's judgement to delete it if he feels I've gone overboard.

But I'd be disappointed if he does so without spiriting away that crap from Thracian in the first place which hugely cheapens the value of this discussion so far.

Sorry all.

[Jon the Hat]

Which is why it's such a shame that so much of the Leave campaign's most lasting publicity and campaigning has been dominated by moronic, xenophobic sentiment.

I'm pretty close to the fence myself, I'm not rampantly pro-EU. There's as big a lefty argument against as there is for.

Yet the most vocal leave supporters have always let down those who awkwardly share their camp by repeatedly making the issue about an irrational fear of eastern European migrants and sometimes flat out racism.

 

I'm not sure it has really, just the remainers and their media supporters are jumping on the usual shit as suddenly Leave related, like the daily express front pages for example, which are just as stupid as they have ever been.  UKIP are no more vocal that in the past either, if anything less so as there are many other voices.  I follow the leave campaign on twitter and they share almost universally quite sensible comment and view points.  Weirdly I have been massively disappointed with Remain and the government in the past month - much as I want to leave the EU, I don't want my Government to be spreading negative crap about my country and how we couldn't stand on our own to the point of losing all credibility.

[foxy boxing]

so will it be a shock to the system or a return to the status Quo, people you decide?