The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[davieG]

For me it's  not about nationalism it's  about size and the EU is now just too big to operate efficiently and for the benefit of all members, I think the same about big conglomerate  businesses. 

 

The EU is too diverse in it's  make up as well,  yes countries are adopting the best (and worst sadly) from other nations but not enough to living in relative harmony and with less self interest one could argue that nationalism is too strong. 

 

Maybe in 50 to 100 years when it's become more homogenised it'll  be possible. 

 

 

Britain will thrive outside of the EU, says the UK’s richest entrepreneur, Peter Hargreaves.

"30 years ago when there were just nine members, they represented 30 per cent of the world economy. Today there are 28 countries in the EU but despite this huge increase in size it now represents only 17 per cent of the world economy."

 

........and it was more a common market than a political union.

[johnny the fox]

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/17/bank-of-greece-report-concludes-greeks-health-deteriorating-life-expectancy-shrinks/  life  expectancy falling in Greece..

 

 very sad..

[The Guvnor]

I could see things getting quite nasty. A big chunk of, let's face it, the less intelligent end of society who voted leave based solely on immigration will feel vindicated and emboldened in the event of a leave vote. I would have thought we'll see an increase in physical and verbal attacks on people who look foreign, with ironically non-eu immigrants baring the brunt. Then, with one battle 'won', and immigration notslowing down, I'd imagine things will only go downhill, and we'll see more larger organised protests against immigrants always ending in violence. The UK could quickly become a very ugly and mean spirited place.

 

On reflection Bob really, no really!

[Alf Bentley]

I'm not sure illegal immigration has to do with the EU, if they aren't legal they should be sent packing. If employers are paying under minimum wages they should be heavily penalised. Whether we remain or not. If the governments current policy of finding this out is ineffective, then it needs addressing, whatever the EU situation.

 

 

I completely agree with your points re. penalisation of employers and better government labour inspections. If immigration reducing pay rates is such a big issue (which it is, to some extent), it's interesting that the Govt takes such a lax approach to illegal employment and labour inspections. One might almost think that they didn't give a shit about working people (foreign or British) and cared only about business.

 

Re. your first point: I'm just saying that illegal immigration would be more of an issue if the UK was controlling EU immigration but sharing at least 1, possibly 2 land borders with states that allowed freedom of movement within the EU (Ireland, potentially Scotland). At the moment, the whole of the British Isles has the same regime: outside Schengen but allowing freedom of movement within the EU.

 

As an aside, a bloke meeting my description entered Australia on a tourist visa many years ago and is believed to have obtained an N.I. number and been employed in 3 different jobs over many months. The same bloke had earlier been paid cash in hand for seasonal agricultural work and was later an illegal immigrant in Colombia for 3 days (entered by boat with people smuggling TV sets & stereos). Ruined my life, so it did, this geezer going around impersonating me. 

[Alf Bentley]

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/06/17/bank-of-greece-report-concludes-greeks-health-deteriorating-life-expectancy-shrinks/  life  expectancy falling in Greece..

 

 very sad..

 

 

Indeed. This is the main reason that I was considering a Leave vote. EMU/Eurozone/Stability Pact is shafting Greece and several other countries economically (having already shafted Greek democracy).

 

If the EU keeps demanding ever more austerity, these are the outcomes - not to mention, eventually, the potential collapse of the Eurozone economy and/or democracy in some countries.

I'm gambling that this will eventually become apparent to them and they'll pull back from the brink, as it is happening in slow motion and the EU economy has sufficient cash that it won't collapse suddenly any time soon.

 

Any problems caused by austerity in the UK are largely our own fault, as we voted for a Tory Govt with those policies. Likewise, if Brexit causes a recession and makes things worse (highly probable in the short-term), that will have been our choice. Greece and other countries are having austerity economics imposed on them due to EU policy, which is an absolute disgrace.

 

Not much about Greece in the news recently, but: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36558406

- Basically, another bailout to kick the can up the road, more austerity & privatisation, continuing misery in Greece....the EU isn't learning yet. I hope it does soon.

 

Although there are serious risks remaining in the EU (e.g. if it doesn't change its Thatcherite economic policies), there still seem to be a lot more risks in Brexit (as explained to you and your nurse ).  

[Strokes]

I completely agree with your points re. penalisation of employers and better government labour inspections. If immigration reducing pay rates is such a big issue (which it is, to some extent), it's interesting that the Govt takes such a lax approach to illegal employment and labour inspections. One might almost think that they didn't give a shit about working people (foreign or British) and cared only about business.

 

Re. your first point: I'm just saying that illegal immigration would be more of an issue if the UK was controlling EU immigration but sharing at least 1, possibly 2 land borders with states that allowed freedom of movement within the EU (Ireland, potentially Scotland). At the moment, the whole of the British Isles has the same regime: outside Schengen but allowing freedom of movement within the EU.

 

As an aside, a bloke meeting my description entered Australia on a tourist visa many years ago and is believed to have obtained an N.I. number and been employed in 3 different jobs over many months. The same bloke had earlier been paid cash in hand for seasonal agricultural work and was later an illegal immigrant in Colombia for 3 days (entered by boat with people smuggling TV sets & stereos). Ruined my life, so it did, this geezer going around impersonating me. 

I don't really know how much they are policing illegals, I assumed as it was pretty damn easy to get here and become legal it wasn't really a massive issue. You find me jumping to the governments defence on much right now anyway, I am thoroughly pissed off with them. I really don't think we will get many people coming from the wonderful EU, with such great conditions and respect for its citizens, to work in the black market here in squalid conditions. If they do, it doesn't really speak volumes for the organisation.

I nearly traveled to Austrailia with very similar intentions many moons ago but unfortunately I wasn't able too, for reasons probably best not detailed in here.

[Guest MattP]

The only people who thought the Mail would be an overall leave are the ones who never read it but spend their lives sharing memes on Facebook etc about what the right wing media do. As Webbo said the MoS has planted it's flag weeks before in this as a pro remain publication.

Delighted the Sunday Times has today come out for leave. The most respected newspaper in the land.

[Alf Bentley]

I don't really know how much they are policing illegals, I assumed as it was pretty damn easy to get here and become legal it wasn't really a massive issue. You find me jumping to the governments defence on much right now anyway, I am thoroughly pissed off with them. I really don't think we will get many people coming from the wonderful EU, with such great conditions and respect for its citizens, to work in the black market here in squalid conditions. If they do, it doesn't really speak volumes for the organisation.

I nearly traveled to Austrailia with very similar intentions many moons ago but unfortunately I wasn't able too, for reasons probably best not detailed in here.

 

 

I'm in a mirror-image position: you won't find me jumping to the EU's defence much now, though you would have 10 years ago. Remain just seems the least bad of 2 risky options.

 

I'm sure most EU immigrants are currently working legally, but not in certain sectors: e.g. seasonal agriculture. I'm no expert, but understand that farmers often just do a deal with an East European gangmaster, who brings in a spud-picking gang or whatever. Presumably the farmer just pays the gangmaster, who then pays the workers. Are all those workers getting at least the minimum wage and paying N.I. contributions? Are the gangmasters even UK traders? There are reports that they also often profit massively from providing their gangs with multi-occupancy accommodation. There are very few inspections of such employment - and the Govt cut them back as part of its spending cuts.

 

This is nothing new. I worked in a spud picking gang in Norfolk 33 years ago ( ). That's how it operated back then: the gangmaster had deals with all the different farmers, at a nice profit presumably, and paid us all piece-rate - and a very low piece rate (before our lovely Labour Govt introduced the minimum wage). No accommodation involved back then, though, as it was entirely British blokes in the gang.

 

I'm intrigued about what prevented your trip to Australia. I'm guessing that you went to Saudi Arabia, drank a load of whisky, had public sex on the beach and were sentenced to 50 Strokes - hence your name? 

[Guest]

Are prisoners allowed to vote?

 

Are prisoners allowed to leave?

[bovril]

I nearly traveled to Austrailia with very similar intentions many moons ago but unfortunately I wasn't able too, for reasons probably best not detailed in here.

 

I love a foxestalk cliffhanger.

[Thracian]

I wouldn't be surprised if the murder of Jo Cox swings the vote back to remain and it's so ironic that, listening to people like Corbyn, whose party increasingly depends on incomer votes, and the Archbishop of Canterbury who represents one of the man-made religions whose historic hypocrisy through its supposed servants knows no bounds, only suggests there'll be more immigration into the UK and Europe rather than less.

 

For me it is just like turkeys voting for Christmas because, in the end, the Christian and native-white-male community in the West will end up as oppressed as they are in the Middle East, with the incomers making constant inroads through their constant playing  the "victim" and "racist" cards or by gaining advantage through a bending of the rules or the application of unequal opportunity.

 

Indeed the reaction to Jo Cox's shameful killing has been to somehow suggest that the arsehole who committed that foul act was somehow representative of the Leave campaigners.

 

He isn't and never was and if the case is proven the culprit can spend the rest of his days locked up and I really don't care if they lose the key whether the man's deemed unbalanced or not. 

 

The killing of Jo Cox has almost certainly done a massive dis-service to this country and one beaten only by the stealth and deception of Tony Blair in opening our doors to overload immigration in the first place. .  . 

 

Ironically I think it was Jesus who was quoted as saying "They Know Not What They Do," when he was crucified

 

Well, it's Britain on the scaffold now and while for all that I hope I'm wrong, I don't think so .

 

Sometimes people, nations and even empires seem unable to stop their own downfall even when they have the opportunity. Sometimes they strangely assist the process almost by way of a guilty conscience.  

 

As Bob Dylan sang...."The times they are a'changing."  

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The only people who thought the Mail would be an overall leave are the ones who never read it but spend their lives sharing memes on Facebook etc about what the right wing media do. As Webbo said the MoS has planted it's flag weeks before in this as a pro remain publication.

Delighted the Sunday Times has today come out for leave. The most respected newspaper in the land.

My suprise is borne out of the thinking that The Mail's stance is for Leave (pretty sure that's the case), so for its sister paper to come out as Remain... is odd.

But, then again we have The Sun declaring 'out' only for The People to side with 'in' and The Times and Sunday Times taking polar views as well.

Now I know the weekday and Sunday papers will have different editors, but they would have had internal meetings on this and if they were that split - why declare a side at all? It would have been refreshing for a paper to go, you know what, we just don't know - here's where we're split on, so you decide what's more important to you.

[davieG]

I wouldn't be surprised if the murder of Jo Cox swings the vote back to remain and it's so ironic that, listening to people like Corbyn, whose party increasingly depends on incomer votes, and the Archbishop of Canterbury who represents one of the man-made religions whose historic hypocrisy through its supposed servants knows no bounds, only suggests there'll be more immigration into the UK and Europe rather than less.

 

For me it is just like turkeys voting for Christmas because, in the end, the Christian and native-white-male community in the West will end up as oppressed as they are in the Middle East, with the incomers making constant inroads through their constant playing  the "victim" and "racist" cards or by gaining advantage through a bending of the rules or the application of unequal opportunity.

 

Indeed the reaction to Jo Cox's shameful killing has been to somehow suggest that the arsehole who committed that foul act was somehow representative of the Leave campaigners.

 

He isn't and never was and if the case is proven the culprit can spend the rest of his days locked up and I really don't care if they lose the key whether the man's deemed unbalanced or not. 

 

The killing of Jo Cox has almost certainly done a massive dis-service to this country and one beaten only by the stealth and deception of Tony Blair in opening our doors to overload immigration in the first place. .  . 

 

Ironically I think it was Jesus who was quoted as saying "They Know Not What They Do," when he was crucified

 

Well, it's Britain on the scaffold now and while for all that I hope I'm wrong, I don't think so .

 

Sometimes people, nations and even empires seem unable to stop their own downfall even when they have the opportunity. Sometimes they strangely assist the process almost by way of a guilty conscience.  

 

As Bob Dylan sang...."The times they are a'changing."  

Or The answer is blowing in the wind

[Rincewind]

I used to have people say to to me ' I know that factory in such and such road employs illegals' I replied then report them if they are breaking the law.

With farm work fruit picking I don't know. How hard would it be for a 'gangmaster' to be employed by a farmer who then takes on say a dozen registerred legal workers but also some illegal ones? The legal ones would be paid at a higher rate so may not say anything (can be dismissed if casual) and the illegal ones dare not say anything. The farmer may even be unaware if he only sees a certain number on the list. Would there be regular checks on this type of work? Only the ones in the job will know.

This is all of cause just speculation.

[Buce]

I don't really know how much they are policing illegals, I assumed as it was pretty damn easy to get here and become legal it wasn't really a massive issue. You find me jumping to the governments defence on much right now anyway, I am mthoroughly pissed off with them. I really don't think we will get many people coming from the wonderful EU, with such great conditions and respect for its citizens, to work in the black market here in squalid conditions. If they do, it doesn't really speak volumes for the organisation.

I nearly traveled to Austrailia with very similar intentions many moons ago but unfortunately I wasn't able too, for reasons probably best not detailed in here.

Come on Strokes, you can't leave us hanging..

[Webbo]

My suprise is borne out of the thinking that The Mail's stance is for Leave (pretty sure that's the case), so for its sister paper to come out as Remain... is odd.

But, then again we have The Sun declaring 'out' only for The People to side with 'in' and The Times and Sunday Times taking polar views as well.

Now I know the weekday and Sunday papers will have different editors, but they would have had internal meetings on this and if they were that split - why declare a side at all? It would have been refreshing for a paper to go, you know what, we just don't know - here's where we're split on, so you decide what's more important to you.

The People is part of the Mirrror group.

[Strokes]

Come on Strokes, you can't leave us hanging..

I appreciate how I've left it open for intrigue, it wasn't my intention. It's not something I'm afraid of talking about, I just don't think it's appropriate. Let's just say it was for family reasons.

[Buce]

I appreciate how I've left it open for intrigue, it wasn't my intention. It's not something I'm afraid of talking about, I just don't think it's appropriate. Let's just say it was for family reasons.

No worries, mate.

[The Guvnor]

I've all but given up on this referendum now. Remain campaign are using Jo Cox as a way of getting votes unfortunately and that will easily get them over the line. David Cameron has said today, don't do what Nigel farage wants, do what Jo Cox believed in.

So any leave campaigners or believers I would fear the worst and then Thursdays result won't be of much disappointment.

If Farage wanted to leave the EU so much, in my opinion he should have took a step back in this campaigning. Just basically left it to Gove and Boris. I respect him and like him but the media has made him out to be a racist and people believe them.

Oh well. Life goes on still!

 

I sincerely hope he has not said that, if he has is there no depths this individual will stoop to.

[Jimothy]

I sincerely hope he has not said that, if he has is there no depths this individual will stoop to.

I can't find any evidence of it at all. The only thing even remotely close was an article he wrote in the telegraph. He started by paying tribute to Jo Cox, then went on to talk about the referendum. People are accusing him of using her death to promote Remain, but let's be honest, if he'd written that article and not paid tribute to Cox, he'd have been lambasted, if he wrote an article without talking about the vote on Thursday, he'd have also been lambasted. I don't even like the bloke, but let's not make shit up, which unless he can provide a source I think apple987 might have done.

[Rincewind]

If it is true,I would say Cameron an Jo Cox likely disagreed on a lot of things so to say do what she would have done would be hypocritical.

[johnny the fox]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4 Lexit the movie...

[Harry - LCFC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4 Lexit the movie...

 

I'm 10 minutes into this and it's surprisingly alright. They've repeated a few of the arguments I've heard but there are some uniquely left-wing points made too.

 

I'd encourage other people to have a watch if you've got time.

[Strokes]

I'm 10 minutes into this and it's surprisingly alright. They've repeated a few of the arguments I've heard already but there are some uniquely left-wing points made too.

 

I'd encourage other people to have a watch if you've got time.

Yeah I agree it's pretty decent.

[Rincewind]

Keep meaning to watch it. I have voted now anyway but the opening few minutes seems about right. The remain keep mentioning immigration to deflect away from the real reason they want to stay.

 

Money money money

it's a rich man's world