Alf Bentley Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 The two are linked. Brexit man shots MP. If he is 'Don't know' you might have a point. The hard to casual racism of a significant number of Brexiters is germane to the Referendum. Some Brexit supporters are motivated by racism, but many are not. Some Bremain supporters are complacent, shallow tossers interested only in their self-image, but many are not. Flinging generalised accusations of racism about won't promote healthy debate or informed decision-making. Better to stick to precise targets: e.g. Farage's poster. Your first sentence is a disgrace - and probably constitutes libel/slander that could get FoxesTalk into trouble. Unless you have evidence that the killer was a "Brexit man", in which case you should post it. From what's in the public domain, the killer may or may not have had dodgy Far Right views, may or may not have been mentally ill - and may or may not have supported Brexit (nobody has connected him to the Brexit campaign). Even if he is a Brexit supporter, you'd need to demonstrate some connection to the murder for your comment to be valid. Otherwise, if I go out and murder someone, will I be "the Leicester City murderer" or "the FoxesTalk murderer"?!? I say that as someone now planning to vote Remain, having been 50-50.
Alf Bentley Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 I've got to say as well I do concur with those who has said life goes on, we shouldn't be stopping the campaign so close to the most important decision for a generation because of this. Question Time with Geldof and the last Andrew Neil interview with IDS has been cancelled (something I'd be annoyed about as a remain supporter as Leave now had a clear advantage on that 2 to 1), the biggest V sign we can give to anyone who wants to damage democracy is to continue. A 24-hour pause to show respect is ample. I seriously hope that this tragedy doesn't derail the debate over the most important political decision of our lifetimes. The TV programmes you mention should be rescheduled for next week or something. We need a proper, civilised debate of the issues between now and Thursday. No lies or hate-filled polarisation, just a proper airing of the issues. Jo Cox was obviously someone who cared enough about democracy to become an MP. My guess is that she'd be horrified at the idea of the issues not being properly discussed due to her death
midland_red Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 no, the worse thing ANY democracy can do is to try and suppress points of view WE might think are disgusting and beyond the pale...the best thing is bring them out into the open and expose them for what they are with reasoned argument and debate.. these people are not going to go away by being condemned ..they are in every society..I have been called a a thinly veiled biigot and a racist on here ..its an easy accusation to throw around and is incredibly offensive , especially when it is not backed up with a scintilla of evidence... i reserve judgement on this tragedy until the police do a full investigation and all the facts are known...unlike so many others who want to use it for they're own agenda which is shameful in my view.. I'm not in favour of suppressing debate at all. My point is slightly different. To me, the vote turns on many such questions eg - what effect would brexit have on the current account deficit? How will we renegotiate trade agreements? If the pound falls should we let it and take the hit on inflation? or raise interest rates and take the hit on growth instead? If we leave, what sort of relationship should we have with our largest trading partner - one like Norway? or Switzerland (which are different BTW). There are plenty of others too. Doubtless there ARE answers to these questions - but from the likes of Johnson and Farage we have heard nothing of them. Instead they have led a vile racist campaign with 'simple' answers to the wrong questions. This dishonest campaign has focused on thinly disguised racism which has in turn generated a poisonous political climate - and I'm old enough to remember fighting to wipe the Nazi Front out of Leicester in the mid 1970s. And for the sake of clarity - I am emphatically NOT suggesting that support for brexit = racism. Not at all. But I AM saying that the Brexit campaign has dredged up an awful lot of sewage from the very bottom of the sewer. And its hard to resit the temptation they they have campaigned the way they have because they actually don't have answers to those fundamental - but difficult - questions
Alf Bentley Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 No chance of Boris doing it, his whole move to support leave was to put himself in a position as leader, if he did switch any chance of that vanishes. A few weeks back, someone who knew Boris (can't remember who) was saying that he viewed politics as like a debating society contest: the political substance doesn't matter, it's all about winning and achieving personal success. His track record backs this up. Before he became an MP, he was an apparently Eurosceptic journalist (sacked for dishonesty, not for the last time). Then, here he is in 2006, calling for Turkey to be allowed into the EU..... Yes, you did read that right! https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/boris-johnson-turkey?utm_term=.jnQVOeoXe#.ongwKY9DY My favourite quote (at 01:04) is: "And when that great moment comes and the 2 halves of the Roman Empire, East and West, are at last reunited in an expanded European Union, then the territory of Turkey will be rejoining a union that certainly has pretensions to restore that grand old Roman unity" He's changed his tune a bit lately about Turkey, hasn't he?! Maybe if he does become PM after the referendum, we'll find out what his politics really are......or maybe not, maybe it really is all about personal ambition for him?
Guest MattP Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 A few weeks back, someone who knew Boris (can't remember who) was saying that he viewed politics as like a debating society contest: the political substance doesn't matter, it's all about winning and achieving personal success. His track record backs this up. Before he became an MP, he was an apparently Eurosceptic journalist (sacked for dishonesty, not for the last time). Then, here he is in 2006, calling for Turkey to be allowed into the EU..... Yes, you did read that right! https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/boris-johnson-turkey?utm_term=.jnQVOeoXe#.ongwKY9DY My favourite quote (at 01:04) is: "And when that great moment comes and the 2 halves of the Roman Empire, East and West, are at last reunited in an expanded European Union, then the territory of Turkey will be rejoining a union that certainly has pretensions to restore that grand old Roman unity" He's changed his tune a bit lately about Turkey, hasn't he?! Maybe if he does become PM after the referendum, we'll find out what his politics really are......or maybe not, maybe it really is all about personal ambition for him? I was actually speaking to someone about that video last night, it's so ridiculous to have such a change of viewpoint within ten years. Obviously as a leave supporter I'm delighted to have Boris on board as he's a vote winner (any Tory who can win London clearly has something that appeals to the public), but I've never kidded myself into seriously thinking he actually wants to leave the European Union, in the same way as I view Corbyn as a Brexiteer there is just too much history there to suggest his current position is false. I think everything is about personal ambition for Boris, I think he sees politics as a game of life and he's there to win, this is probably his one chance to be Prime Minister and he's played a blinder, he's the favourite for the job if we remain and he's the favourite for the job if we leave, how many politicians manage to get themselves into a position like that?
Guest MattP Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 A 24-hour pause to show respect is ample. I seriously hope that this tragedy doesn't derail the debate over the most important political decision of our lifetimes. The TV programmes you mention should be rescheduled for next week or something. We need a proper, civilised debate of the issues between now and Thursday. No lies or hate-filled polarisation, just a proper airing of the issues. Jo Cox was obviously someone who cared enough about democracy to become an MP. My guess is that she'd be horrified at the idea of the issues not being properly discussed due to her death Agree. Unfortunately Neil confirmed today that his final show with IDS is off, it should be on next week, as should Question Time. It's too important not to be.
Thracian Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 Have you any shame? Brexit man shoots MP? What the ****? From what I've read the arrested man has been involved with an organisation that helps people with mental problems and I voiced concerns only last week on here about to the incredible number of people who have such problems and who don't seem to be getting the help they need. Whatever the reasons for the killing it's an appalling crime although I've been disappointed, but not surprised, about the way the BBC have tried to turn it into a party political broadcast on behalf of their socialist friends with pictures of their "vote Labour" message. By all accounts the victim was an excellent MP who campaigned passionately for what she believed and did much to admire for her local community and there's no way I can imagine any sane Brexiteer would wish any physical harm on any opponent for voicing their opinions or for any other reason. Whoever committed this shameful act, far from representing me, or, i would hope, anyone else who wants the UK to regain its independence. has probably done the leave campaign more harm than help. Whether they'll ever be safe on the streets again I don't know but they need serious help, and quickly.. People should be safe to air their views in this country, and even more than others if we ever intend to set an example. As for comments about Brexiteers being "casual racists" the comment is beneath contempt. Quote from one Sky News story, relating to the man said to have been arrested. Back in 2010, a Thomas Mair, then aged 46, was quoted in his local paper talking about his mental health issues. After being a patient of the Mirfield-based Pathways Day Centre for adults with mental illness, he had volunteered at Oakwell Hall country park in Birstall, according to a Huddersfield Examiner report at the time. He told the paper: "I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world. "Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common, mainly caused by long-term unemployment." 1/6 A 24-hour pause to show respect is ample. I seriously hope that this tragedy doesn't derail the debate over the most important political decision of our lifetimes. The TV programmes you mention should be rescheduled for next week or something. We need a proper, civilised debate of the issues between now and Thursday. No lies or hate-filled polarisation, just a proper airing of the issues. Jo Cox was obviously someone who cared enough about democracy to become an MP. My guess is that she'd be horrified at the idea of the issues not being properly discussed due to her death Couldn't agree more.
Thracian Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 A few weeks back, someone who knew Boris (can't remember who) was saying that he viewed politics as like a debating society contest: the political substance doesn't matter, it's all about winning and achieving personal success. His track record backs this up. Before he became an MP, he was an apparently Eurosceptic journalist (sacked for dishonesty, not for the last time). Then, here he is in 2006, calling for Turkey to be allowed into the EU..... Yes, you did read that right! https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/boris-johnson-turkey?utm_term=.jnQVOeoXe#.ongwKY9DY My favourite quote (at 01:04) is: "And when that great moment comes and the 2 halves of the Roman Empire, East and West, are at last reunited in an expanded European Union, then the territory of Turkey will be rejoining a union that certainly has pretensions to restore that grand old Roman unity" He's changed his tune a bit lately about Turkey, hasn't he?! Maybe if he does become PM after the referendum, we'll find out what his politics really are......or maybe not, maybe it really is all about personal ambition for him? Well, he won't change my views about Turkey. And certainly not while they are led by Erdogan. There's a big divide in Turkey, I understand that, but Erdogan is the leader and while I quite see that his attitude to democracy is on a par with many dictatorial EU representatives and I don't his having an influence on my life, thanks.
apple987 Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 Brexiter has a hissy fit. Shock. To me it is symptomatic of the Brexit argument that panders to the emotions. A reasoned clear mind is needed to make the biggest decision to affect the UK for the last fifty years. It's racist to not want millions more people cramming onto one of the smallest countries in the world, an island? Funny that. I imagine another island in the world somewhere should just allow 10 million people onto there island, if they say no then.... Well there racist
Merging Cultures Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 MSF is also out of Europe. They are going to stop taking money from the EU and member states in response to the EUs deal with Turkey. MSF do the best parties. If you ever find yourself in a conflict/recent post-conflict environment, seek them out. Always some nutty French dude spinning the decks.
midland_red Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 It's racist to not want millions more people cramming onto one of the smallest countries in the world, an island? Funny that. I imagine another island in the world somewhere should just allow 10 million people onto there island, if they say no then.... Well there racist where did you get the 10m figure from - Nigel Farage??
apple987 Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 where did you get the 10m figure from - Nigel Farage?? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom
midland_red Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom here's the rest of the wikipedia article you forgot to quote At the time of the UK census, conducted in April 2001, 8.3 per cent of the country's population were foreign-born.[2] This was substantially less than that of major immigration countries such as Australia (23 per cent), Canada (19.3 per cent) and the USA (12.3 per cent) still - at least you admitted to being a racist - I didn't have to call you one.
apple987 Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 here's the rest of the wikipedia article you forgot to quote At the time of the UK census, conducted in April 2001, 8.3 per cent of the country's population were foreign-born.[2] This was substantially less than that of major immigration countries such as Australia (23 per cent), Canada (19.3 per cent) and the USA (12.3 per cent) still - at least you admitted to being a racist - I didn't have to call you one. Conducted in 2001?? here's the rest of the wikipedia article you forgot to quote At the time of the UK census, conducted in April 2001, 8.3 per cent of the country's population were foreign-born.[2] This was substantially less than that of major immigration countries such as Australia (23 per cent), Canada (19.3 per cent) and the USA (12.3 per cent) still - at least you admitted to being a racist - I didn't have to call you one. Conducted in 2001?? here's the rest of the wikipedia article you forgot to quote At the time of the UK census, conducted in April 2001, 8.3 per cent of the country's population were foreign-born.[2] This was substantially less than that of major immigration countries such as Australia (23 per cent), Canada (19.3 per cent) and the USA (12.3 per cent) still - at least you admitted to being a racist - I didn't have to call you one. Conducted in 2001??
apple987 Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 Funny thing is that if we stay in the EU. In about 5 years time no one will even want to come and live here. Will be so crammed. 2 year NHS waiting lists. Basically a run down country or state of the EU.
Stadt Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 I do feel that the decent arguments for leaving haven't had the airtime they deserve, immigration has been too large a discussion point particularly when the current government hasn't done anything to combat non-EU immigration even though it pledged it would. Another concern of mine as brexit voter is that I feel as though we should be better off outside of the EU but I don't really trust any current political figures to actually pull it off.
Dr The Singh Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 I just had a leaflet from the Remain campaign saying 'dont let Farage talk for you've. Are these people looking for real, do they think people are that stupid to believe such nonsense propaganda I do feel that the decent arguments for leaving haven't had the airtime they deserve, immigration has been too large a discussion point particularly when the current government hasn't done anything to combat non-EU immigration even though it pledged it would. Another concern of mine as brexit voter is that I feel as though we should be better off outside of the EU but I don't really trust any current political figures to actually pull it off. Don't worry, I'm joining politics, all will be good when I'm in power
apple987 Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 What's with all this Farage hate. Its really odd. The whole point of UKIP is to leave the EU,and he's seen as a mad man. Half of the population then seems to want to leave the EU and it's perfectly normal but Farage is still a weird racist.
Darkon84 Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 I just had a leaflet from the Remain campaign saying 'dont let Farage talk for you've. Are these people looking for real, do they think people are that stupid to believe such nonsense propaganda Don't worry, I'm joining politics, all will be good when I'm in power I'm looking forward to the implementation of compulsory, daily poon.
Thracian Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 Much of the "hate" comes from people with a vested interest in portraying him in this way or that. It's connected to the "ist" syndrome whereby people get placed under convenient labels and villified or silenced using those "ists" as an excuse, including at universities judging by comments on here, and irrespective of the truth of those labels or the justification under "freedom of speech" principles. . There are many people who don't welcome open, meant-to-be-honest debate. They have their views, interests or motivations and don't really want them to be changed perhaps because many or even most of their community vote a certain way or are persuaded to vote that way because it supposedly serves their interests. Others might vote a certain way because their family has always voted that way or because they specifically benefit - like from being a councillor, community leader or teacher in a strongly biased political area. Incomers who want to believe someone is racist will be easily persuaded even if they've never met the person or read any of their speeches to form an informed opinion. They'll not think twice of being led no matter what the motives of the people leading them. I actually attended last year's UKIP conference and was pleasantly impressed by the sense and reasoning I heard from the principle speakers. And there was a pronounced emphasis on not mixing a desire to reduce immigration levels with the notion of being anti-immigrant. The two things are and were considered to be entirely different, and so they are.. Indeed I've referred before to the number of longstanding incomers who themselves advocate a reduction in immigrant numbers. Young people, and young incomers among them, might be quickly persuaded that someone or some party is racist - they are quickly persuaded of many things. But I'm fairly sure, if current trends continue, that they'll be among those calling for common sense immigration instead of the ridiculous levels of today as they get older.
ROB-THE-BLUE Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 Could we put a poll in the thread? Stay or Leave? I'm really interested to see what kind of result we get!
I am Rod Hull Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 Could we put a poll in the thread? Stay or Leave? I'm really interested to see what kind of result we get! http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/topic/107143-foxestalk-brexit-poll/#entry3913886
ROB-THE-BLUE Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/topic/107143-foxestalk-brexit-poll/#entry3913886 Ah thanks VERY close!
Webbo Posted 17 June 2016 Posted 17 June 2016 http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/topic/107143-foxestalk-brexit-poll/#entry3913886 I've pinned it now for the rest of the campaign.
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