Migrants - What's the answer?

[Thracian]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Some of those countries will never help; some of them don't care for their own people never mind others.

 

 

Then why don't the people who live there change it? Most of these countries are wealthy and in a good position to offer aid. They are often  underpopulated and there is a whole lot of work an influx of immigrants could do to make these countries better places in which to live...physically and idealogically

 

I'm staggered by the way Islam, for instance, advertises its commendable humanitarian actions but so often seems to turn its back on the suffering even of its own kind, when Islam is actually effecting much of the damage in the first place.

 

As for the UK there's enough suffering to be alleviated here already and, before anyone asks, yes, I've tried to do my bit. Five figures worth in the last three years and much of it completely wasted on reflection so no, I don't feel one shred of satisfaction. More like a mug.  

 

With refugees there's so much hypocrisy while people are constantly asking for broader, lasting answers without actually providing any. 

 

Many refugees have allowed themselves to become part of the problem they're fleeing from, or their parents and forefathers have been part of it in various ways.

 

For me religious and idealogical brainwashing - of all kinds - should be banished the world over and it's a pity there aren't as many campaigning in this direction as there are specifically campaigning for refugees.

 

Because the one has clearly led to the other in too many instances and for centuries.

 

Indeed I've already seen the damage that can do over here without importing yet more of it. More so, the authorities don't show the will to combat it and, too quickly, those in charge actually start to overlook or even actively or passively represent the problem as indicated by so many examples already and the cover ups that have often accompanied those examples.

 

To really find solutions people need to get away from being labelled and seeking refuge in numbers, and to start flying the flag for individuality.

 

There is nothing wrong with believing in almost anything that doesn't impact on other people's welfare, but you don't need to make a cult of it. Just look after yourself and your family.     

 

Sadly though,  groups seem to work better than individuals in making dramatic changes, the irony being that too often they end up creating their own monsters, as history so clearly testifies. 

 

But really, groups actually need to champion the merits of individual rather than collective thinking but, just like sheep, human beings feel safer in groups.

 

Haha, perhaps we're not programmed to win!

 

Because - just like in so many trades union meetings - a group will vote for its own destruction if there's a loud enough shout for it. And that's what the West might be doing in welcoming hoardes of refugees in the long run....

 

Unless they really believe an enlightened education programme can somehow win the day which it might but only if left in the right hands. In the wrong hands the impact might well be fatal to the values of individualism I've mentioned.

 

A man might fight hard for the right thing, but if a lot more people want to, or are persuaded, to fight in another direction, they will surely win whether it's for the best or not...sore indication of the danger posed by groups whether they are armies, refugees, political activists, media journalists or anyone else.

 

The right place for refugees?

 

Wherever they choose so long as they promise to forsake all forms of organised and promoted religion, the practice of ideological brainwashing of others and involvement in idealogical brainwashing by others...on pain of deportation back to their country of originor a season ticket for Nottingham Forest! 

 

Seen to its natural conclusion that policy - if applied to everyone as well as refugees - would soon see the world at peace or at least a lot further along the road. 

 

Education should, as I've said, teach people how to think not what to think.

 

That way they can think for themselves and guide their own lives without being disproportionately subject to the pressures of others which is a sure recipe for the advocating of warfare and disharmony and the flattened ground that ferments into hoardes of refugees whatever the rights or wrongs of any military dispute. 

 

Taken to the logical conclusion, government could be by non-party consensus and, hopefully, by people given a short though renewable remit after earning it through wise service.

 

It'll take a lot of selflessness to achieve it though...and the will of a massive group of individuals the world over, voting, like turkeys for Christmas!   

[Wymsey]

It'd be pretty stupid if some of these migrants come via the Calais route, where there's a big police presence to attempt to block people entering the tunnel to here.

[Rincewind]

I agree with the religion part Thracian. I have read some right nutters on Twitter the last couple of days. One even saying the dictionary is atheists  holy book because it defines atheism different to how they would.

I have no doubt some of the neigbouring countries have helped. To what extent I would not know. The UK European media will focus on  the closer to home issues.

Saw something the other day. A picture with the words Austr(alli)a welcomes refugee children and handing out toys. Then underneath the words  'Sorry we mean Austria.'

This refers to reports that Australian authorities  are placing refugees on small islands in poor conditions. Could be just typical paper talk though.

[Merging Cultures]

Seeing that drowned child didn't make me any more willing to accept migrants, such like seeing the starving African children on TV doesn't make me any more likely to give to charity. It's not that I don't care or it doesn't bother me seeing people suffering, I just know I need to save every penny if I ever want to have a house/afford to be able to have children one day. If that makes me a selfish cvnt, then I guess I'm a selfish cvnt!

I watched one of those starving African kids adverts once. Now I live here, tax free, with my kids at a private school paid for by my wife's organisation.

Oh, and I get to keep my conscience clean by helping orphan's and vulnerable children.

Yeah, I am the man.

[Wymsey]

The logistics of 'Operation Christmas Child' will be easier, with some of the gift donations probably going to these.

 

Wouldn't be too surprised.

[Merging Cultures]

The logistics of 'Operation Christmas Child' will be easier, with some of the gift donations probably going to these.

Wouldn't be too surprised.

Just send the money to me. I'll make sure some kids get Christmas presents.

[EnderbyFox]

These bloody Asylum Seekers, coming over here stealing our hair appointments

 

 

[RedSoxUK]

It'd be pretty stupid if some of these migrants come via the Calais route, where there's a big police presence to attempt to block people entering the tunnel to here.

 

The amount of people supporting these migrants in Calais physically makes me mad. The fact so many would go out of their way to help those in Calais and ignore those actual refugees in Lebanon is just pure stupidy, not having a caring heart for people in their time of need.

 

Many of the posters these organisations make for donations to Calais include: 'Not wanted: Womens and Childrens clothes' - just sums it up really.

 

If you're planning to donate to people in Calais, there's still time, don't be fooled.

[Socks]

I dont think allowing 100,000 immigrants from Syria, with a possiblitity that a certain percentage are ISIS soldiers, is the right answer.   whichever way u look at it, its frightening to think what this country will be like when my daughters grow up in ten years or so

[ozleicester]

OK, I wasn't challenging you, I was just wondering because I'd like to help too, but apart from giving money (not particularly helpful) and verbalise your support (not helpful) there doesn't seem to be a lot I can do, and I'm in Europe. I'm just wondering how someone like yourself who is in Australia and presumably far removed from any of this crisis would go about actively making a real positive contribution to the situation.

 

fair enough, no worries.

 

We are quite far removed from this particular crisis but we have the fallout from it and others (Iraq/Sri Lanka/Afghanistan etc.), you may not be aware that our government instituted a policy that means if you try to come to Oz by boat as a refugee, we will ship you off to a prison/detention centre on a tiny island, where you will be locked up for (so far) up to 5 years even though you are a LEGITIMATE REFUGEE.

 

In terms of how you can help my first recommendation is to contact Amnesty International in your area (think this is them.. http://www.amnesty.org.uk/groups/leicester)  Amnesty are a fantastic group generally and can help you find ways that you can physically help, eg, helping refugees with getting to and from appointments, collecting donated furniture and goods etc, tidying homes to make them available to use,  or depending on your skills you can volunteer as an advocate and assist them in dealing with the bureaucracies etc.

 

There are  many many ways you can help if you want to.

 

You can search for local groups that help refugees, for example (and im not involved with these people and i dont know anything about them, so im not recomending them) a simple google search shows.. https://leicester.cityofsanctuary.org/ or  http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/in_your_area/east_midlands as  a couple of options.

 

Also, please dont discount the value of money donations, and even if the best you can do is to make your voice heard to support those suffering people, it all helps, a call, email or letter to your local MP lets them know that they should be taking action...... and when enough people care and pressure parliament change happens.

 

We may be far away, but the earth is everyones home, borders arent real and we should be working to reduce the suffering of all people.

[Freesolo]

Here is something to watch that will show that all these people are just running to steal you all so precious tax money

[MadKaw]

fair enough, no worries.

 

We are quite far removed from this particular crisis but we have the fallout from it and others (Iraq/Sri Lanka/Afghanistan etc.), you may not be aware that our government instituted a policy that means if you try to come to Oz by boat as a refugee, we will ship you off to a prison/detention centre on a tiny island, where you will be locked up for (so far) up to 5 years even though you are a LEGITIMATE REFUGEE.

 

 

 

Wow, you make it sound a lot worse than it is...

 

 

From the human rights commission.

 

 

Length of detention in immigration detention facilities:

• 559 people has been in detention for 0-3 months
• 289 people had been in detention for 3-6 months
• 323 people had been in detention for 6-12 months
• 226 people had been in detention for 12-18 months
• 268 people had been in detention for 18 months to 2 years
• 348 people had been in detention for over 2 years.

How many asylum seekers who arrived by boat have been released from detention on Bridging Visas?

As at 30 June 2015 there were 28,588 asylum seekers who had arrived by boat (including 3,579 children) who had been permitted to live in the community on Bridging Visas while waiting for their claims for protection to be processed.

Third country processing was introduced in late 2012, transfers in 2013, the average time in detention is 13 months - Difficult or longer to resolve cases has made this figure higher.

[ozleicester]

Wow, you make it sound a lot worse than it is...

 

 

From the human rights commission.

 

 

Length of detention in immigration detention facilities:

 

WORSE THAN IT IS???

 

These innocent people are locked up and are not called by name, in true Nazi germany style, they are called by a number allocated to them by the Government. 

 

To be honest, i dont think i could make it sound any worse than it is. More than 90% of people seeking asylum in Australia have been found to be legitimate refugees. So, the vast majority of people (INCLUDING CHILDREN) being held in these prisons are innocent people who have done nothing wrong and yet they are kept locked up because redneck Ozzies have become fixated by the crap spouted by politicians (both Labor and Liberal (conservatives)) that we are being overrun.

 

In these prisons.....

innocent men have been murdered by guards (Reza Berati),

women have been raped and ....

children have been abused

all by by guards and people employed by the Australian government.

 

Add to that, the oz government has made it illegal for doctors to tell the media about the abuses occurring in detention. DOCTORS FFS.. no mandatory reporting there.

 

I havent even started on the mental injuries and self abuse being suffered by those innocents in detention, or the BILLIONS of $ being spent to lock them up, or those that are being SENT BACK to war zones like Iraq and Syria. 

 

People who have escaped the threat of murder due to their religious or political beliefs that are being flown back by Australia to be handed over to the people they were trying to escape.

 

Worse than it is????????........... Murder...children sexually abused..., people suicide...... women raped... mental illness at the highest level.

 

and all because selfish people cant share.

[johnny the fox]

I dont think allowing 100,000 immigrants from Syria, with a possiblitity that a certain percentage are ISIS soldiers, is the right answer.   whichever way u look at it, its frightening to think what this country will be like when my daughters grow up in ten years or so

be careful.you might be labeled as hard and uncaring..http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/603797/Migrant-crisis-FAKE-Syrian-claim-asylum-Europe

[MadKaw]

Confirmed.

 

Your definitely making it worse.....

[johnny the fox]

Confirmed.

 

Your definitely making it worse.....

but but.....http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/603667/refugee-crisis-Britain-David-Cameron-Syria-civil-war-Government-Prime-Minister

[Merging Cultures]

It is terrible what is happening in the processing centres that Australia have set up.

However, the only duty a country has is not to send an asylum seeker to a country where they are being persecuted. The country can protect their borders.

Australia needs to sort out the camps and ensure that people are treated fairly and they are safe.

[ozleicester]

It is terrible what is happening in the processing centres that Australia have set up.

However, the only duty a country has is not to send an asylum seeker to a country where they are being persecuted. The country can protect their borders.

Australia needs to sort out the camps and ensure that people are treated fairly and they are safe.

 

Really? Im no international lawyer, but i was of the understanding that there is an agreement that countries must accept genuine refugees?

[Merging Cultures]

Really? Im no international lawyer, but i was of the understanding that there is an agreement that countries must accept genuine refugees?

Neither am I!

My reading of it is that a. a migrant has to declare they are seeking asylum, b. that claim has to be processed and then they become refugees, and c. where they are processed or even placed is not dictated.

A country doesn't have to accept migrants. So sending them elsewhere, where they can then request asylum, is perfectly fine. Until they have entered a country and claimed asylum, they are migrants. If they are processed elsewhere and found to be refugees and they are in a safe country, there is no obligation to move them elsewhere. Just because a refugee wants to be in Australia doesn't mean they have a right to be there.

To get into a country, you need to abide by their laws, if you need a visa to get in, you need a visa. If you have a visa, and get into the country, then claim asylum, fair play. If you are found to be a refugee, then the country should allow you to stay, but can and should have certain limitations on your stay. A refugee should be able to upgrade their status once in country.

If you are fleeing persecution, go straight to the nearest camp on your border.

Migrant < Asylum Seeker < Refugee

[ozleicester]

Neither am I!

My reading of it is that a. a migrant has to declare they are seeking asylum, b. that claim has to be processed and then they become refugees, and c. where they are processed or even placed is not dictated.

A country doesn't have to accept migrants. So sending them elsewhere, where they can then request asylum, is perfectly fine. Until they have entered a country and claimed asylum, they are migrants. If they are processed elsewhere and found to be refugees and they are in a safe country, there is no obligation to move them elsewhere. Just because a refugee wants to be in Australia doesn't mean they have a right to be there.

To get into a country, you need to abide by their laws, if you need a visa to get in, you need a visa. If you have a visa, and get into the country, then claim asylum, fair play. If you are found to be a refugee, then the country should allow you to stay, but can and should have certain limitations on your stay. A refugee should be able to upgrade their status once in country.

If you are fleeing persecution, go straight to the nearest camp on your border.

Migrant < Asylum Seeker < Refugee

 

Interesting, disappointing, but interesting 

[Merging Cultures]

This is why Denmark can shut it's borders to migrants, why the Hungarians didn't want to let the trains go, and why France doesn't just let the migrants in Calais through.

[Jon the Hat]

These bloody Asylum Seekers, coming over here stealing our hair appointments

 

 

 

I think he is saying they guy who cuts his hair was on holiday back home in the country from which he sought asylum in the UK.

[Merging Cultures]

Interesting, disappointing, but interesting [emoji106]

I might be wrong though. Happy to discuss alternative interpretations.

[Thracian]

I dont think allowing 100,000 immigrants from Syria, with a possiblitity that a certain percentage are ISIS soldiers, is the right answer.   whichever way u look at it, its frightening to think what this country will be like when my daughters grow up in ten years or so

 

 

It isn't, but the Labourite Lefties won't see it that way - they'll just see the importing of more votes under the guise of humanitarian action as being the perfect pathway to power - albeit it power that will be assumed by people of a different culture as time goes by and as it already is in many places thanks to Tony Blair and company. Ten years? It's frightening now in many places. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas!   

[Jon the Hat]

What proportion of second or third generation migrants have assimilated very nicely into Britain vs the proportion who haven't I wonder.  Got to be a much much higher proportion.