Migrants - What's the answer?

[urban.spaceman]

Peter Hitchens has been pretty much spot on about most things for the last 3-4 years I have read his blog.

Shame such individuals are howled at in public life.

It's weird, for years he was just Christopher Hitchens' idiotic Christian little brother, but since he died Peter's stopped talking so much nonsense and started making a lot of sense on certain subjects. Shame it's printed in the Daily Fail though as that instantly discredits any sort of claims of intelligent commentary.

[bmt]

you can go into a country and claim asylum. So then you are still in the country but not classed as an asylum seeker but as a immigrant. 

Cheers, was just confused as I know one of the points of contention at the moment is that people are simply being stopped at the border (eg the 'Jungle' in Calais).

[Larry_LCFC]

I mean in the longer term, my point was to do with people returning following the end of the unrest in their country. I don't think Syrian refugees would want to scrounge off the British state permanently, as some posters seem to suggest.

I agree some of them wouldn't. There are some very intelligent, well educated people amongst the them - lecturers, teachers, doctors etc. I'm sure they would want to get back into work as soon as they can. But there will also be a group who will take what they can get and be happy living like that - there are plenty of British people who get away with it which is bad enough. Having to extend that to people migrating here on a long term basis would be fundamentally wrong when our budgets are so stretched as it is.

[Babylon]

I mean in the longer term, my point was to do with people returning following the end of the unrest in their country. I don't think Syrian refugees would want to scrounge off the British state permanently, as some posters seem to suggest.

Who knows, not sure of the conversion rate of refugees going from state handouts to being fully independent, I'm sure there are stats out there. Many of those I've seen on the news have seemed well educated and I'm sure they wouldn't. But there will also be those who are happy doing nothing.

[Richmondfox]

You witnessed racism in a factory towards English people, In what way? all foreigners I have met seem to keep to themselves or are Ok people, I think your letting one experience completely distort what is really going on it sounds like its ingrained in your memory, British people treat foreigners worse than foreigners treat us in my experience

 

It ranged from intimidating behaviour, line managers making anyone who wasn't 'their kind' do the worst jobs even though that wasn't what you had been assigned to do by the shift leaders as it wasn't your turn again, you would pick up on name calling and would be told by people who would talk to me as they wanted to practice their english that they were saying vile things about other people, mainly the Indian workers.  I'm not scared of hard work as i've never not been without a job of some form since I was 11 but being shouted at Latvian to work faster at 4am in the morning while packing sausages in the freezing cold makes you look at things differently.  

 

I've lived in Finsbury Park and witnessed lots of homophobia, lack of respect and intimidation by walking past the Finsbury Park mosque or the station.

 

Well I apologise for that, it isn't my intention. I do think my tone is somewhat a reaction to other posters tones and critiques of people's character rather than opinion (not including yourself), but if it alienates people then I'll change it - after all it is a difficult issue that there isn't one answer to. I am a student but yes working in education from next year, so decent guess.

That's decent of you to say.  I agree that the extreme views on both side can bring out a passionate response but it's usually better to type, reread and take a breath before posting.  Also I can spot a fluffy leftie a mile off as i've worked in TV for over 12 years. 

[ramboacdc]

Cheers, was just confused as I know one of the points of contention at the moment is that people are simply being stopped at the border (eg the 'Jungle' in Calais).

as its been stated in this thread already, once they are in they are hard to keep track of. If they were to apply for asylum before turning up at the gates so to speak they would have a yes or a no and be provided with tickets to get into the country. the whole point of the system is to get people out of countries they are being oppressed and into a safe one. 

[Larry_LCFC]

It may have been discussed in here already, but on a side note, what are peoples views on these "Refugees Welcome" banners being planned for football matches this weekend?

For me politics has no place at a football match and I don't agree with the clubs planning to take part in it.

[Merging Cultures]

Cheers. I guess ultimately I agree with that way of doing things in the long run, but in the short term feel that there are people who need immediate help. I think there must be a way in the short run to prop up local infrastructure and housing, and we should try and find it. I also think although that's a sensible system, we have a responsibility to take on more refugees than we undoubtedly will.

In the short-term, the best approach is to take people from camps who have been approved as refugees. These people are probably the most vulnerable. They probably don't have thousands of dollars to pay human traffickers and have fled to the nearest safe haven.

I'm sure if they could afford it, they'd want to get to Europe, but they can't. They probably weren't able to plan and had to escape quickly.

Can we take more? Yes. Should we? Yes, but only from the camps. And the burden should be shared globally. Until a consensus on quotas is reached, we shouldnt just fling the doors open and accept as many as possible. It isn't practical.

[bmt]

as its been stated in this thread already, once they are in they are hard to keep track of. If they were to apply for asylum before turning up at the gates so to speak they would have a yes or a no and be provided with tickets to get into the country. the whole point of the system is to get people out of countries they are being oppressed and into a safe one. 

 

Interestingly on that point, one of my friends went to Calais recently and a number of people they met there weren't actually trying to get into the UK as their English wasn't very good, but as they spoke French they were staying in the Jungle camps whilst asylum papers etc for France were going through. 

[bmt]

In the short-term, the best approach is to take people from camps who have been approved as refugees. These people are probably the most vulnerable. They probably don't have thousands of dollars to pay human traffickers and have fled to the nearest safe haven.

I'm sure if they could afford it, they'd want to get to Europe, but they can't. They probably weren't able to plan and had to escape quickly.

Can we take more? Yes. Should we? Yes, but only from the camps. And the burden should be shared globally. Until a consensus on quotas is reached, we shouldnt just fling the doors open and accept as many as possible. It isn't practical.

 

Whilst I do agree that they are the 'most' vulnerable, those paying thousands to risk their lives and get away in my opinion are still valid refugees. War doesn't discriminate between middle class and poor, at least in this case. That's my only problem with that system, just because someone has enough money to get out their country and risk life and limb to get to a country where they can speak the language for (as a number of the Syrian migrants will in our case), shouldn't preclude them from seeking refuge in that country.

[Richmondfox]

Cheers, was just confused as I know one of the points of contention at the moment is that people are simply being stopped at the border (eg the 'Jungle' in Calais).

I think the issue with Calais is that they are already living in a safe place but refusing to.  Why? the main reason seems to be that you need ID cards in France.  Also the level of crime and cost they causing is making the British public (not sure to what level) have less sympathy to compared to Syria.

 

Syrian refugees in Turkey at UN camps Yes, angry migrant males committing crimes in Calais No.

 

If anyone has a heart they would offer these poor boys in the first picture help.  WUM post btw http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224305/Selfies-shore-Refugees-lifejackets-celebrate-beach-reaching-Greek-island-thousands-waiting-enter-Europe.html 

[Freesolo]

It ranged from intimidating behaviour, line managers making anyone who wasn't 'their kind' do the worst jobs even though that wasn't what you had been assigned to do by the shift leaders as it wasn't your turn again, you would pick up on name calling and would be told by people who would talk to me as they wanted to practice their english that they were saying vile things about other people, mainly the Indian workers.  I'm not scared of hard work as i've never not been without a job of some form since I was 11 but being shouted at Latvian to work faster at 4am in the morning while packing sausages in the freezing cold makes you look at things differently.  

I take it that job didn't last to long? Unless I had mouths to feed there is no way i would work in a job that soul destroying which made me unhappy

[bmt]

I think the issue with Calais is that they are already living in a safe place but refusing to.  Why? the main reason seems to be that you need ID cards in France.  Also the level of crime and cost they causing is making the British public (not sure to what level) have less sympathy to compared to Syria.

 

Syrian refugees in Turkey at UN camps Yes, angry migrant males committing crimes in Calais No.

 

If anyone has a heart they would offer these poor boys in the first picture help.  WUM post btw http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224305/Selfies-shore-Refugees-lifejackets-celebrate-beach-reaching-Greek-island-thousands-waiting-enter-Europe.html 

I'm actually going to Calais in a few weeks to do research for an essay, I'll be sure to post what I find out because there is a hell of a lot of different perspectives being reported from there.

 

That picture is hilarious; the Mail never disappoints.

[CupidStunt]

Wonder if many people who see this mass migration as a hand we should offer with open palms know that....

A load if christians were chucked off a boat to drown?

Wonder if they know the 3 year old boys father had a lifejacket and was not fleeing fearing for his safety but to improve his lifestyle and get a new set of "teeth"

Do they know a known British extremist was pictured holding a gun and usis flag 12 months ago yet 12 months later he is seen pictured as a "refugee" wanting entry to the u.k?

The media imo are being very selective in what they show.

The government tell us were broke, cutting costs for cancer medication. I mean, I'm all out for helping those that are in but if we don't keep our own house in order what chance have we got

[Merging Cultures]

Whilst I do agree that they are the 'most' vulnerable, those paying thousands to risk their lives and get away in my opinion are still valid refugees. War doesn't discriminate between middle class and poor, at least in this case. That's my only problem with that system, just because someone has enough money to get out their country and risk life and limb to get to a country where they can speak the language for (as a number of the Syrian migrants will in our case), shouldn't preclude them from seeking refuge in that country.

They are not valid refugees until processed as such. Which is why the media is having to refer to them as migrants.

In my opinion, having seen the effects of war (having lived in Liberia 2004-2005, worked in DRC, Rwanda, Burundi, Cambodia, Kosovo (Serbia?!), where else... Memory fading) and worked for an organisation that does resettlement in the US.

War definitely discriminates. Ethnicity, religion, social status, wealth, are all reasons for war. The effects of which are more easily absorbed if you have assets.

[bmt]

Wonder if many people who see this mass migration as a hand we should offer with open palms know that....

A load if christians were chucked off a boat to drown?

Wonder if they know the 3 year old boys father had a lifejacket and was not fleeing fearing for his safety but to improve his lifestyle and get a new set of "teeth"

Do they know a known British extremist was pictured holding a gun and usis flag 12 months ago yet 12 months later he is seen pictured as a "refugee" wanting entry to the u.k?

The media imo are being very selective in what they show.

The government tell us were broke, cutting costs for cancer medication. I mean, I'm all out for helping those that are in but if we don't keep our own house in order what chance have we got

 

You are selecting very specific and rare cases that ARE reported in the media there though...

[Rincewind]

As in most things there is no right or wrong answer.

[Richmondfox]

I take it that job didn't last to long? Unless I had mouths to feed there is no way i would work in a job that soul destroying which made me unhappy

I worked in it for several months, became depressed and withdrawn from friends living it up in London until out of the blue an old friend contacted me about jobs at his work and here I am.  

[johnny the fox]

As in most things there is no right or wrong answer.

whats your view on child molesting... ha ha 

[urban.spaceman]

It may have been discussed in here already, but on a side note, what are peoples views on these "Refugees Welcome" banners being planned for football matches this weekend?

For me politics has no place at a football match and I don't agree with the clubs planning to take part in it.

I find it annoying when people think 32,000 people will share their views becuase they think it's a noble attitude to have. It's just not likely that everyone will agree with that sign for a plethora of reasons, some right some wrong. It's using your own politics to imply that is applies to everyone else.

I remember when I was a student at Carmarthen the student union arranged free busses to Cardiff for a protest on top-up fees (I only went for a free trip to Cardiff); when we got there there were Socialist Worker signs protesting the war in Iraq. I was incensed by this because, regardless over whether or not it was right to protest the war, thousands of people were there to protest top up fees and not the war; it's just not on to imply that your own political opinion is shared by thousands of other people when it just won't be.

The point I'm getting to is, thousands of people will be going to the football next weekend to watch a game of sodding football, not to have a blanket opinion pinned on them against their will. The only kind of political expression that should be allowed in football is a respectful minute's silence (and obviously anything Hillsborough related at Anfield)

[bmt]

They are not valid refugees until processed as such. Which is why the media is having to refer to them as migrants.

In my opinion, having seen the effects of war (having lived in Liberia 2004-2005, worked in DRC, Rwanda, Burundi, Cambodia, Kosovo (Serbia?!), where else... Memory fading) and worked for an organisation that does resettlement in the US.

War definitely discriminates. Ethnicity, religion, social status, wealth, are all reasons for war. The effects of which are more easily absorbed if you have assets.

 

Valid prospective refugees then, at least as valid as someone who is poor.

 

But one of the ways it has discriminated, at least how I see it, in this conflict is that the richer have afforded to get out of the conflict zone, so the benefit they have is now a disadvantage. I nearly changed that to bombs don't discriminate because my point was more if you leave rich and poor people in the same place in an active war zone, they are equally at risk.

 

Out of interest, what do you do? Very interesting list of places, you must have seen some horrible things.

[bmt]

It may have been discussed in here already, but on a side note, what are peoples views on these "Refugees Welcome" banners being planned for football matches this weekend?

For me politics has no place at a football match and I don't agree with the clubs planning to take part in it.

 

Although that is evidently my point of view, it's obviously a divisive issue and therefore banners shouldn't be made as if they were the view of everyone. I think politics can have a place in football matches but only when the fans all agree on the issue.

[CupidStunt]

You are selecting very specific and rare cases that ARE reported in the media there though...

Not front page news though are they? That's my point. The media are being very selective for whatever reason only they know but I draw my own conclusions.

[Strokes]

Not front page news though are they? That's my point. The media are being very selective for whatever reason only they know but I draw my own conclusions.

Its pretty obvious this being pushed on us to draw us into accepting another war, the propaganda on display is incredible.

[Larry_LCFC]

Although that is evidently my point of view, it's obviously a divisive issue and therefore banners shouldn't be made as if they were the view of everyone. I think politics can have a place in football matches but only when the fans all agree on the issue.

Would there ever be a political issue that everyone would agree on though? I would say not. Peoples views are always going to differ whatever the topic. Some people will argue the sky is green because they can. I think its very dodgy ground when people start using football as a platform to spread potentially controversial political messages.