Migrants - What's the answer?

[Carl the Llama]

The UK, one of the great successes in cross-cultural harmonisation, is going to fall to shit because of a few thousand more middle-eastern immigrants who are travelling to benefit from western capitalism according to many.  But integrating them as we've managed so well with other bands of migrants (certain members of society excepted) won't be possible because they're too dissimilar to us?  Keep eating that cake.

[Captain...]

Some 'interesting' views in this thread.

 

What is clear to me is that we (we being the developed nations, the EU, UN, the league of Arab Nations) are not handling this crisis well. The reason refugees are dying is because they are resorting to smugglers to escape from ISIS. We need to take control of the refugee routes and provide safe passage to those fleeing, because if we don't they will flee anyway paying money to shady individuals, and god knows where that money will end up, and put their lives at serious risk.

 

The other thing that is clear is that they are coming/have already come so we have to deal with it and not try and ignore it, repel it, fight it. This is the meaning behind the refugees welcome banners. It is not encouraging people to come here, they are already here and more are on their way regardless of what measures we take, it is encouraging empathy and understanding, it is creating a wave of goodwill towards these poor unfortunates caught up in a conflict that is not their fault (and arguably ours, but that is another story), so that when they do turn up here they will not be victimised. More than that, they will hopefully come here officially, registering with the government for asylum seeker status, that may mean we end up giving them money and spending resources feeding and sheltering refugees. The alternative is that they are here illegally and use illegal means of supporting themselves which leads to crime and exploitation and when the crisis is over we will have no idea who they are or where they are.

 

Officially welcoming refugees will allow us to monitor and process them across the EU, and ensure that one country does not take the brunt of the impact, some countries are better prepared for this sort of influx, and should take more than us, but we are better prepared than other countries so we need to take our fair share. Otherwise the burden ends up on countries closer to the conflict, like Greece which has its own problems at the moment.

 

Finally what is clear to me is that we are not tackling the root cause of this crisis, and that is ISIS, we rightly voted not to get involved in Syria when we thought that Asad was the problem, this seems to be justification for not doing anything now, but the situation is very different. If we(again we is the EU, UN, Arab League of nations not one country acting alone) provided a military opposition to ISIS, then maybe more people would stay and fight, but at the moment anyone staying to fight is just staying to die. I do wonder if we are letting ISIS establish itself as a state, because it is much easier to fight and beat a rogue state than some underground guerrilla terrorist organisation. Let all the main players be known and then destroy them in one fell swoop, but that is a dangerous game to play as they are causing untold damage to an already unstable region and they are not limiting their activity to the region, with the threat of terrorist strikes in Europe. Or maybe they are waiting until Al Nusra, Al Qaidi and all other extremist groups are destroyed by or sucked into ISIS, then there is just one enemy to fight.

 

Until someone steps up and takes on ISIS the refugee crisis will only worsen as their reach spreads and more people are forced to flee. Unless that is the plan, get all the innocents out the way and then nuke the region...

[Freesolo]

I think that every Town or City could take on between 10 and 100+ LEGITIMATE! refuges depending on size, using funding from government aid and charities, there should be space and money to house these people whether sharing or moving to a home and people should be willing to help. I'm not talking about opening up the gates like Germany and letting in nearly a Million people I don't understand that but it i a unprecedented move and shows amazing Humanity.

20k is nothing and i think for a county our size it shows just how xenophobic we have become probably due to the european union opening the gate in the late 1990s and people becoming bitter it starts with all the snide remarks you hear from people which is racism at the end of the day. If these people spoke our language (and im sure that a fair % do enough to get by) and looked like us a little maybe there wouldn't be such a problem but ****wits have no comprehension where they have come from and what they have gone through, have you ever had a bomb dropped in your street? And lived in a place where what you say could get you and your family killed.

We spend enough on the royal family maybe they should open up Buckingham Palace it probably has enough room to house 100 war torn families, instead it sits empty most of the time guarded by soldiers and police

Edit; and if you read this and think we should take none or they should go back where they came from then think if the shoe was on the other foot and you had to flee your home you had lived in all your life because some cocksucker is dropping bombs and firing bullets in your street, then risk your life on a boat ride from hell and have no idea where your next meal is coming from or even where you are going then maybe it can change your perspective, if it doesn't change your view in any way then you don't even know you're ****ing born.

[ozleicester]

just print the fvcking money... we can do it to pay bankers an ceo's

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-20/meanwhile-greece-quietly-printing-billions-euros

[bmt]

Let's summarise:

One of you resorts to calling me a 'bell end'

Another tries the sarcasm approach with implying the 'loony left' are 'harmless folk' that are usually naive (in your 'opinion' of course).

And the last, oh the classic, suggesting my views are entrenched and I'm not 'open' to 'alternative opinions'.

That last one really is the classic.

I am clearly not open to alternative opinions if I find them disagreeable, think about it.

Interesting debate folks, my bed beckons, work tomorrow.

Apologies if my 'entrenched' left wing views offend you?

of course not, if my views offend you, that's your choice. I'm not going to change your view.

Absolutely. 

[bmt]

You genuinely think they're all or mostly going to go back? If they wanted to preserve their culture they could move to Lebanon, Jordan or Turkey where lifes a lot similar and they'd be closer to their family and friends. You reckon after the govt's given them somewhere to live, free health care and education, money to live on if they did need it they're going to turn their back on that and return to Syria?

 

Late reply but yes, despite the British media convincing us we have the best country in the world and everyone wants to steal a bit of it, I do believe that the majority of war refugees would want to return home when it is safe.To think everyone coming here would want to stay is arrogance. It isn't based on anything else, 250000 Belgian refugees returned home following the First World War. I presume your evidence for past experience would be the completely incomparable situation in Uganda, but I am open to hearing of another huge influx of migrants who moved here in a war and then mostly stayed after. You could also put some safeguards in to stop this from happening. 

 

Lebanon and Jordan are ridiculous suggestions, combined population of what,12 or 13 million?!  Lebanons population which is about 1/5th Syrian refugees as it is. That is a country which truly is "full", Jordan has 1/10th Syrian migrant population. There are an estimated million refugees in Turkey too. I can't believe I am accused of glossing over things to fit my own agenda, and then the same people will rep your post when it clearly ignores a whole lot of facts, to fit your agenda. 

 

Yes some refugees would like to stay here as migrants, but a large number would definitely want to go home in my opinion. 

[Larry_LCFC]

It's not arrogance to think alot won't return home, it's a reality. Would you really leave a country where you recieve free housing, benefits and health care to return to a war torn country where there is a risk the same could happen again? Sure some will, but alot have already said they want a new life here.

[Richmondfox]

Late reply but yes, despite the British media convincing us we have the best country in the world and everyone wants to steal a bit of it, I do believe that the majority of war refugees would want to return home when it is safe. I repeat again, to think anything else is arrogance. It isn't based on anything else, 250000 Belgian refugees returned home following the First World War. I presume your evidence for past experience would be the completely incomparable situation in Uganda, but I am open to hearing of another huge influx of migrants who moved here in a war and then mostly stayed after. You could also put some safeguards in to stop this from happening. 

 

Lebanon and Jordan are ridiculous suggestions, combined population of what,12 or 13 million?!  Lebanons population which is about 1/5th Syrian refugees as it is. That is a country which truly is "full", Jordan has 1/10th Syrian migrant population. There are an estimated million refugees in Turkey too. I can't believe I am accused of glossing over things to fit my own agenda, and then the same people will rep your post when it clearly ignores a whole lot of facts, to fit your agenda. 

 

Yes some refugees would like to stay here as migrants, but a large number would definitely want to go home in my opinion. 

So anyone with a different opinion to you is arrogant? 

[RichMC24]

I think that every Town or City could take on between 10 and 100+ LEGITIMATE! refuges depending on size, using funding from government aid and charities, there should be space and money to house these people whether sharing or moving to a home and people should be willing to help. I'm not talking about opening up the gates like Germany and letting in nearly a Million people I don't understand that but it i a unprecedented move and shows amazing Humanity.

20k is nothing and i think for a county our size it shows just how xenophobic we have become probably due to the european union opening the gate in the late 1990s and people becoming bitter it starts with all the snide remarks you hear from people which is racism at the end of the day. If these people spoke our language (and im sure that a fair % do enough to get by) and looked like us a little maybe there wouldn't be such a problem but ****wits have no comprehension where they you must be have come from and what they have gone through, have you ever had a bomb dropped in your street? And lived in a place where what you say could get you and your family killed.

We spend enough on the royal family maybe they should open up Buckingham Palace it probably has enough room to house 100 war torn families, instead it sits empty most of the time guarded by soldiers and police

 

It's this kind of attitude that really annoys me.  Not the poster, whom I am sure is a perfectly reasonable person and obviously very compassionate.  However the narrative coming from a variety of 'pro-refugee' sources is always that, if you don't agree, you must be xenophobic and racist.

It is not enough to have genuine concerns about housing, education, health, transport, integration, crime when considering our immigration policy.  None of these concerns are valid because clearly people are only objecting because they are racist.

[bmt]

It's not arrogance to think alot won't return home, it's a reality. Would you really leave a country where you recieve free housing, benefits and health care to return to a war torn country where there is a risk the same could happen again? Sure some will, but alot have already said they want a new life here.

 

The people that want a new life here won't want free housing or benefits, they aren't from a country or culture where that is true so why would that suddenly change here. I don't understand how the same arguments for divisive cultures doesn't count when it is about motivations etc. They come from a culture where the ties to family are extremely strong, I think Syrian people care more about where their family are than 37.50 a week.

 

So anyone with a different opinion to you is arrogant? 

No and I obviously didn't mean it like that. I think it's arrogant to suggest everyone wants a piece of our country, and that is based on speaking to many different people from different countries and cultures. You could use that 'different opinion' argument any time anyone says anything negative about an opinion. Nevertheless, I did phrase it badly and have amended it.

[Rincewind]

Unless they are in a priority group they will not get 'free housing' or 'free money'. These misconceptions have been around for years.

[Richmondfox]

The people that want a new life here won't want free housing or benefits, they aren't from a country or culture where that is true so why would that suddenly change here. I don't understand how the same arguments for divisive cultures doesn't count when it is about motivations etc. They come from a culture where the ties to family are extremely strong, I think Syrian people care more about where their family are than 37.50 a week.

 

No and I obviously didn't mean it like that. I think it's arrogant to suggest everyone wants a piece of our country, and that is based on speaking to many different people from different countries and cultures. You could use that 'different opinion' argument any time anyone says anything negative about an opinion. 

You seem like a smart, caring person (work in education/lecturer?) but are you aware that you do come across as self righteous, aggressive and intimidating in your posts against people who have different opinions and view on life to yourself.  You shouldn't judge everybody by your standards as other people on this board might not have the same daily experiences.  If you and a couple of other users chilled out a bit I would listen and research your points in more detail to get another view point and maybe you could understand why people might not want to see the mass changes that have happened over the last several years.

 

I myself have no love for Eastern European men due to when I lost my job in broadcasting and went to work in a factory.  The amount of racism I saw and heard from young polish men to the few English and many Indian/Portuguese workers was disgusting, but that is my experience.  I think we should reduce the amount of people moving to work here from the EU while we house people in need from Syria.

 

On a side not did anyone see the pictures of Leicester Pride on the Mercury website?  Not a very diverse crowd for a city like Leicester, visual support only seems to be one way.

[SMX11]

Peter Hitchens has been pretty much spot on about most things for the last 3-4 years I have read his blog.

Shame such individuals are howled at in public life.

[Merging Cultures]

Unless they are in a priority group they will not get 'free housing' or 'free money'. These misconceptions have been around for years.

https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/overview

2. What you'll get

You can ask for somewhere to live, a cash allowance or both as an asylum seeker.

Housing

You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast.

You can’t choose where you live. It’s unlikely you’ll get to live in London or south-east England.

And notably:

If you’ve been refused asylum

You’ll be given:

somewhere to live

£35.39 per person on a payment card for food, clothing and toiletries

[Freesolo]

 

I myself have no love for Eastern European men due to when I lost my job in broadcasting and went to work in a factory.  The amount of racism I saw and heard from young polish men to the few English and many Indian/Portuguese workers was disgusting, but that is my experience.  I think we should reduce the amount of people moving to work here from the EU while we house people in need from Syria.

You witnessed racism in a factory towards English people, In what way? all foreigners I have met seem to keep to themselves or are Ok people, I think your letting one experience completely distort what is really going on it sounds like its ingrained in your memory, British people treat foreigners worse than foreigners treat us in my experience

[bmt]

You seem like a smart, caring person (work in education/lecturer?) but are you aware that you do come across as self righteous, aggressive and intimidating in your posts against people who have different opinions and view on life to yourself.  You shouldn't judge everybody by your standards as other people on this board might not have the same daily experiences.  If you and a couple of other users chilled out a bit I would listen and research your points in more detail to get another view point and maybe you could understand why people might not want to see the mass changes that have happened over the last several years.

 

I myself have no love for Eastern European men due to when I lost my job in broadcasting and went to work in a factory.  The amount of racism I saw and heard from young polish men to the few English and many Indian/Portuguese workers was disgusting, but that is my experience.  I think we should reduce the amount of people moving to work here from the EU while we house people in need from Syria.

 

On a side not did anyone see the pictures of Leicester Pride on the Mercury website?  Not a very diverse crowd for a city like Leicester, visual support only seems to be one way.

 

Well I apologise for that, it isn't my intention. I do think my tone is somewhat a reaction to other posters tones and critiques of people's character rather than opinion (not including yourself), but if it alienates people then I'll change it - after all it is a difficult issue that there isn't one answer to. I am a student but yes working in education from next year, so decent guess.

[johnny the fox]

Peter Hitchens has been pretty much spot on about most things for the last 3-4 years I have read his blog.

Shame such individuals are howled at in public life.

http://www.sunnation.co.uk/people-smugglers-could-kill-off-the-eu-too-says-trevor-kavanagh/?CMP=spklr-_-Editorial-_-TWITTER-_-TheSunNewspaper-_-20150907-_-SunNation-_-232415793  Another bloke who I don't care for ..he is spot on as well.. 

[bmt]

https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/overview

2. What you'll get

You can ask for somewhere to live, a cash allowance or both as an asylum seeker.

Housing

You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast.

You can’t choose where you live. It’s unlikely you’ll get to live in London or south-east England.

And notably:

If you’ve been refused asylum

You’ll be given:

somewhere to live

£35.39 per person on a payment card for food, clothing and toiletries

Out of interest who does that 'refused asylum' point refer to. Surely if someone is refused asylum they wouldn't be in the country in the first place? Pardon my ignorance if that's a stupid question.

 

My opinion is that the legislation would obviously need revisiting for this crisis.

[Babylon]

The people that want a new life here won't want free housing or benefits, they aren't from a country or culture where that is true so why would that suddenly change here.

Because it's being offered... If I moved to another country and someone said here have a roof over your head and money for food etc, I'd be a fool not to take it. Might not be my long term plan or wish to live like that, wouldn't stop me from taking what I can get if there are no catches.

[Rincewind]

https://www.gov.uk/asylum-support/overview

2. What you'll get

You can ask for somewhere to live, a cash allowance or both as an asylum seeker.

Housing

You’ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast.

You can’t choose where you live. It’s unlikely you’ll get to live in London or south-east England.

And notably:

If you’ve been refused asylum

You’ll be given:

somewhere to live

£35.39 per person on a payment card for food, clothing and toiletries

Fair enough. There is a prority guide to emergency housing from Shelter online. Asylum seekers may fit into that. I posted a link a few weeks back when someone was about to leave their present address.

If you have been refused asylum you may get temporary housing but only  if a certain age pregnant or have young children. They would still need the right papers.

[Merging Cultures]

Out of interest who does that 'refused asylum' point refer to. Surely if someone is refused asylum they wouldn't be in the country in the first place? Pardon my ignorance if that's a stupid question.

My opinion is that the legislation would obviously need revisiting for this crisis.

If they arrived in the UK and claimed asylum here and were refused there is an appeals process. So I guess this is just saying they continue to receive benefits until after the appeals process and the point at which they are removed from the country. It isn't anything scandalous and makes perfect sense. However, it just highlights that asylum seekers do receive housing.

Then once they are approved as refugees, they will be granted leave to remain for 5 years, at which point they can try to find work, and will receive the same level of benefits as a British or EU citizen, including housing benefits.

It is likely that skilled refugees will find jobs, and there are many educated people from Syria. There are also a lot of unskilled people who will join the growing ranks of unemployed people in the UK and therefore add to the number of benefits claimants.

Ideally, they'd be classified as refugees BEFORE arriving (as Dave wants). But that doesn't mean they will get jobs straight away.

[bmt]

Because it's being offered... If I moved to another country and someone said here have a roof over your head and money for food etc, I'd be a fool not to take it. Might not be my long term plan or wish to live like that, wouldn't stop me from taking what I can get if there are no catches.

 

I mean in the longer term, my point was to do with people returning following the end of the unrest in their country. I don't think Syrian refugees would want to scrounge off the British state permanently, as some posters seem to suggest.

[ramboacdc]

Out of interest who does that 'refused asylum' point refer to. Surely if someone is refused asylum they wouldn't be in the country in the first place? Pardon my ignorance if that's a stupid question.

 

My opinion is that the legislation would obviously need revisiting for this crisis.

you can go into a country and claim asylum. So then you are still in the country but not classed as an asylum seeker but as a immigrant. 

[bmt]

If they arrived in the UK and claimed asylum here and were refused there is an appeals process. So I guess this is just saying they continue to receive benefits until after the appeals process and the point at which they are removed from the country. It isn't anything scandalous and makes perfect sense. However, it just highlights that asylum seekers do receive housing.

Then once they are approved as refugees, they will be granted leave to remain for 5 years, at which point they can try to find work, and will receive the same level of benefits as a British or EU citizen, including housing benefits.

It is likely that skilled refugees will find jobs, and there are many educated people from Syria. There are also a lot of unskilled people who will join the growing ranks of unemployed people in the UK and therefore add to the number of benefits claimants.

Ideally, they'd be classified as refugees BEFORE arriving (as Dave wants). But that doesn't mean they will get jobs straight away.

 

Cheers. I guess ultimately I agree with that way of doing things in the long run, but in the short term feel that there are people who need immediate help. I think there must be a way in the short run to prop up local infrastructure and housing, and we should try and find it. I also think although that's a sensible system, we have a responsibility to take on more refugees than we undoubtedly will.

[Merging Cultures]

you can go into a country and claim asylum. So then you are still in the country but not classed as an asylum seeker but as a immigrant.

Which has a points based process. So, if you are an unskilled migrant it is likely you wouldn't be allowed to stay.

However, policing this once they are in the country is very difficult.