BigMicky Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 I agree that the 'organisers' probably are primarily motivated by their desires for power. Although I doubt that that religion is completely absent when they orchestrate these attacks. Again, if you're going to be like this I can't say anything in response. You might feel superior acting all mysterious and distant but it doesn't make for a productive conversation. Not superior or mysterious. Someone has shouted something and that's it, Islam is to blame, its been taken at face value.
Guest Col city fan Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 I think Kitch is incredibly naive on this. Read your Machiavelli.... Religion is used merely as an excuse to perform something, or to achieve something you want to achieve. How many atrocities and genocides have happened, across the globe, NOT in the name of religion? Millions of people have been slaughtered. The Nazis murdered 6 million Jews, Idi Amin in Uganda slaughtered an innumerable amount of, often, his own people. Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Massacres based upon race..... Etc etc etc... For something like this to happen there is usually a recipe: an IDEA (or ideology) that something must change. Strong personalities (in some cases, single dictators). A set of antecedents (in the case of Nazism, German economic ruin following WW1). In the case of ISIS, some thought of revenge. And finally FEAR....fear of not engaging in the process. What will happen if we don't join the cause...... If all these ingredients are in place, the process can get driven. A twisted form of religion is just ONE such ingredient..which can be in place, or not. They are all in the aim of achieving one thing...Power and control. ISIS want to gain power and to control. Nothing more.
4everfox Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Why do Muslims get labeled as terrorists and extremists? Its rubbish. The IS are not Muslims, they are sick fame hungry murderers who say they represent "god". I have friends who are Muslims and I trust them to babysit my children because they are good people and I don't care what their religious beliefs are and I certainly know that the actions of IS do not accurately represent the values of the Muslim culture. My Muslim friends are angry and ashamed that these psychopaths are killing in the name of their god and I'd bet that a vast majority of the Muslim population would agree. I'm not Muslim by the way.
Guest Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 I don't think those 120 people had the opportunity to say what their world view was. I understand people who feel that religion in general doesn't help, it doesn't appear to have helped historically, but I think any belief system - political, religious or otherwise - can be used as an excuse for people to commit atrocities. Perhaps it asks a question of how we have dealt with terrorism in the past, in Ireland for instance, where we treat the perpetrators, along with the dead, as victims of the conflict. I can't help but think that this is just murder. Most murderers have some sort of misplaced belief too, be it that the woman they're killing shouldn't challenge the authority of a man, or exists solely as a sexual object for the purposes of a man. It's not right to treat a misguided belief as an excuse. But then again, I don't believe we should be teaching white magic and sorcery in faith schools all over Europe. And we have to wonder how to deal effectively with people who hide their hatred behind an ideology. In a school we deal with regularly there have been a number of cases of young Muslim kids threatening to cut the heads of white students off - and yes, it's not something we should get carried away with, they are kids, they're saying the sorts of things kids tend to say and nobody is going to get their heads cut off - but their parents have been quite intransigent in dealing with the issue. If we were to change one thing in the wake of these attacks, then for me it would be for schools not to say 'look, this is a hot potato, it's going to be easier to do nothing' - which is exactly what happened. Similarly, I've known of various incidents of kids from white Christian backgrounds coming out with all sorts of abhorrent nonsense, occasionally being sent home for a day, but nobody doing anything to actually tackle the misguided belief. Maybe it's because I'm a teacher, but I feel that at very least one of the solutions to one of the problems lies in schools being encouraged to deal with these things at the root. And while parenting remains an invincible profession it's going to be tough. Good post. I agree with most of it.
Guest MattP Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Why do Muslims get labeled as terrorists and extremists? Its rubbish. The IS are not Muslims, they are sick fame hungry murderers who say they represent "god". I have friends who are Muslims and I trust them to babysit my children because they are good people and I don't care what their religious beliefs are and I certainly know that the actions of IS do not accurately represent the values of the Muslim culture. My Muslim friends are angry and ashamed that these psychopaths are killing in the name of their god and I'd bet that a vast majority of the Muslim population would agree. I'm not Muslim by the way. When you deal with this sort of self delusion we will never manage to tackle the problem. Of course the vast majority of Muslims are good people, we all know that, they are good people because they are good people, whether you like it or no Islamic State is Muslim, it's exclusively Sunni Muslim and they have a very strict interpretation of a Koran, one that many scholars disagree with, but also one that many do. We can't just sit here everytime this happens, claim they aren't Muslims and hope it won't happen again because most Muslims we know are good people, Islam needs to reform itself in the same way every other religion has had to to adapt to a modern, liberal World. It still hasn't moved on from it's 7th century form in many parts of the World, I've heard a "moderate" cleric on the radio a few weeks and he still refused to acknowledge any point that was brought up about Western values with regards to women's rights or homosexuality, while that is still the norm in Islam it won't deal with the terror in it's midst.
Alf Bentley Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Do I have to say it again? Religion is the root of all evil. That's really not true, is it? And I say that as an atheist. Hitler, Stalin and Mao would generally be seen as having exerted an "evil" influence on the world - and religion wasn't at the root of their evil, was it? Some people, with an absolutist interpretation of a religion exert an evil influence - like Islamic State. But you also get absolutists who base their intolerance on race, nationalism, communism etc. Despite the misdeeds of religious hierarchies and extremists, religion can also exert a positive influence in providing a moral and social code, social organisation etc. Its philosophies can be valuable, even if, like me, you don't believe in any God. A contempt for the right of others to have rights, be different or hold different beliefs is much more of a common denominator in forces of "evil". Extremist belief systems do not accept mutual respect between different groups or peaceful co-existence between groups with different beliefs. How all this can be resolved in practice, fvck knows. When people have gone as far as IS, they can probably only be defeated militarily. Their obsessive, blinkered, hate-filled thinking does not accept the rights of others to think differently, so there is no scope for negotiation. Education, communication and understanding between different groups in our society must be a priority to prevent different groups being polarised, fueling more mutual distrust and hatred, and delivering more young recruits to the likes of IS....but that is a long-term process. We need these countries in the Middle East and Africa to become stable, tolerant societies, whatever religion or politics predominates. But who can lead that process, as excessive intervention by the West is bound to be counter-productive? People mention the Arab League, but some of these conflicts/extremist groups are not even based in Arabic countries. The UN in tandem with the Arab League and other regional authorities? One thing is certain: stopping the massive flow of cash (and therefore arms) to IS from places like Saudi Arabia and Qatar should be a priority - likewise the ability of IS to generate its own funds by selling oil etc.
Harry - LCFC Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 I think people are just saying that if a person is capable of murdering hundreds of people, it's likely they would have been violent with or without having Islam to hide behind. It may well have been a different belief system were it not Islam - most religious texts have enough blood and thunder tucked away in their darker recesses to appeal to lunatics worldwide - but these weren't, as Webbo puts it, nice happy-go-lucky chaps before Islam warped their fragile little minds. It's like the impact of TV, literary and video game violence on children's behaviour. There's very little evidence to indicate that watching Reservoir Dogs, Child's Play or Macbeth makes someone more likely to commit a murder. Some people will watch it, copy it, commit appalling crimes, but if they are susceptible to watching an hour and a half of Tim Roth and being inspired to murder people, then there were clearly underlying emotional issues which would have caused them problems anyway. The problem with something like ISIS - whether their gripes with the world are totally unjustified or partly understandable - is that it's effectively a call-to-arms for large numbers of unstable people who, by the very nature of their signing-up, are extremely susceptible to extreme acts of violence. Ok, but accepting that argument (not a bad one I must say) still leaves us with an ideology that needs to be intellectually defeated. People will continue to rally behind this cause if they cannot be persuaded that there are better ways to live within their religion. Not superior or mysterious. Someone has shouted something and that's it, Islam is to blame, its been taken at face value. When people are prepared to die for a cause it must be a pretty good one in their own mind. I don't find it difficult to imagine people wanting to die for a religious belief and I believe these people when they tell us why they're doing what they're doing.
Guest MattP Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 The Arab league's ineptness in dealing with this problem is becoming as shameless as some of the West's actions. Totally impotent.
Guest Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 A contempt for the right of others to have rights, be different or hold different beliefs is much more of a common denominator in forces of "evil". Extremist belief systems do not accept mutual respect between different groups or peaceful co-existence between groups with different beliefs. I like this. Sadly it applies to some who post on here too.
Rincewind Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Why does a person join ISIS? Could it be that their lives are so bad and believe things they are told about who is to blame? Repeatedly beat a dog and he may eventually bite you. I am not religious in any way but I bet most Muslims would be appalled and condemn those that committed the murders but blame them all and there could be some who will say maybe they are right and we should speak out against those that blame us all. If there were no religion they would find another excuse but it would still be murder first belief second. You have to ask how bad must a persons life be that they are willing to kill themselves and others to make a point. And when will they realise most people are not listening to them but more concerned about the innocent victims.
Guest Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 The Arab league's ineptness in dealing with this problem is becoming as shameless as some of the West's actions. Totally impotent. I agree with this too.
BigMicky Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Ok, but accepting that argument (not a bad one I must say) still leaves us with an ideology that needs to be intellectually defeated. People will continue to rally behind this cause if they cannot be persuaded that there are better ways to live within their religion. When people are prepared to die for a cause it must be a pretty good one in their own mind. I don't find it difficult to imagine people wanting to die for a religious belief and I believe these people when they tell us why they're doing what they're doing. Agree with that, its out of desperation for their "cause", what I don't understand is why we don't look at our own actions and look at what has led to all of the atrocities over the years. It'd hideous what has happened in Paris, but surely we need to understand the reasoning behind it before we can move forward. Force vs Force clearly isn't working.
Thracian Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 But religion exists. FYI France bans religious teaching at school and has banned the Burka - works well doesn't it? What are religions across the world? Basically different codes of approved conduct. How ironic that more people have died in the name of religion over the centuries than anything but natural causes. If that's to be commended it shows how willingly people accept being subjected and controlled. Personal faith can inspire exceptional goodness, sacrifice and achievement in people and all of it given by free choice. Man-made religion can inspire the same but is also a means of systematically gaining power over people - for whatever end, be it good or evil. Man of course is the problem. Most are more comfortable in a crowd whatever the costs to their own identity over time. It's like "the working class" really. It's meaningless - the Queen works as hard as anyone. But it does offer the comfort of "belonging" to something that can be clung to....a "supporting" ladder however badly contrived or weakened by the woodworm of corruption.
Guest MattP Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Why does a person join ISIS? Could it be that their lives are so bad and believe things they are told about who is to blame? Repeatedly beat a dog and he may eventually bite you. I am not religious in any way but I bet most Muslims would be appalled and condemn those that committed the murders but blame them all and there could be some who will say maybe they are right and we should speak out against those that blame us all. If there were no religion they would find another excuse but it would still be murder first belief second. Unfortunately often not the case, one of the most deeply surprising and concerning things about a lot of those that support or join is they often educated people who achieved good grades at school, young people with the World at their feet. What they all seem to have in common is they have been radicalised or been in contact with someone who we know about. One of the key things we will need to defeat this is the power to shut down places that spread this hatred and posion these young minds, how the East London Mosque is still standing is beyond me, I dread to think how many deaths that place, Hamza, Qatada etc are responsible for, the sickening thing is they used our freedoms to do it.
Thracian Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 What a shame that, instead of mourning the loss of so many innocent people yesterday and stopping to consider the searing pain their families and friends are experiencing, people take the opportunity to take political swipes at one another. What a shame that, instead of mourning the loss of so many innocent people yesterday and stopping to consider the searing pain their families and friends are experiencing, people take the opportunity to take political swipes at one another. I agree but people often hit out at the easiest target when frustrated. All the reaction and debate shows me is how hard it is to get people to agree any united course of action because the more diverse your society, the wider the different vested or idealogical interests. There's no easy answers to terrorism and no stopping the innocent dying as a means to different ends. Perhaps what saddens me most is the hypocrisy of it all.
Guest MattP Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Unfortinately the issue is as political as it gets.
Rincewind Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Yes some are educated. I see it like drug dealers standing outside school gates waiting for the bullied and abused by parent/s kids to come out. A free pill to cheer them up and they are hooked. Not always the case I know but studies have shown it is the higher percentage.
Guest MattP Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Yes some are educated. I see it like drug dealers standing outside school gates waiting for the bullied and abused by parent/s kids to come out. A free pill to cheer them up and they are hooked. Not always the case I know but studies have shown it is the higher percentage. And I'm now going out for a very big drink.
Rincewind Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Me too. Apparently Facebook have deleted Jason Manfred's status post. There is a lot of swearing aimed at the killers. Mostly the f C and B words. Someone copied and shared. Anyone want to see it?
TheMightySystem Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Me too. Apparently Facebook have deleted Jason Manfred's status post. There is a lot of swearing aimed at the killers. Mostly the f C and B words. Someone copied and shared. Anyone want to see it? Talked about on the mirror website. Don't know why it was taken down as he was directing his comments at extremists, not ordinary muslims. http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/paris-attacks-jason-manfords-facebook-6830456
The Doctor Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Oh it's from The Last Leg, makes sense now. The stats aren't from the last leg, they're from human rights watch or something like that - it's all down to how they're defining terrorism which then puts latin America and hardliner leftists as the biggest individual threat; that Islamic attacks make up only 2% and it's just the size of them that makes them seem more prominent
lianne81 Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Wish i had not clicked that video , heartbreaking. They are reporting that they believe one off the suicide bombers is only 15 years old , if this is the case they are now getting kids to fight their stupid beliefs.Something needs to be done now to protect all people from isis. x
Claridge Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 You don't understand what multi-culturalism is do you? And Islam isn't the problem either but I'm clearly talking to a brick wall with no ears or mind. Extremists are the problem and they exist in islam, christianity, judaism... they exist in every area of life outside of religion too. Do you remember the hooligans of the 80's. They were extremists. Football (islam) wasn't the problem, most supporters weren't the problem and we didn't ban football or kill all supporters to eradicate the problem. No the police restricted the travel, introduced banning orders and finally got tough with the hooligans. Same needs to happen with the extreme element of Islam. Emphasise what we all should have in common not multi-cultural rubbish promoting our differences. I'm Hindu and as a rule we have integrated into British society whilst keeping our traditions, this is not true of many Muslims.Take a walk around areas with a large Muslim population and see for yourself.
Thracian Posted 14 November 2015 Posted 14 November 2015 Unfortunately often not the case, one of the most deeply surprising and concerning things about a lot of those that support or join is they often educated people who achieved good grades at school, young people with the World at their feet. What they all seem to have in common is they have been radicalised or been in contact with someone who we know about. One of the key things we will need to defeat this is the power to shut down places that spread this hatred and posion these young minds, how the East London Mosque is still standing is beyond me, I dread to think how many deaths that place, Hamza, Qatada etc are responsible for, the sickening thing is they used our freedoms to do it. It was naively irresponsible to imagine the radicalisers wouldn't use our freedoms for their own ends and, my life, there were enough warnings.
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