Paris Shootings

[GaelicFox]

Difficult for them to self police as muslims are mostly law abiding, caring people. "Muslims" don't associate with terrorists.

Are you mad ?

The whole 7-7 crew were associating with Muslims !

One was running a community centre

[GaelicFox]

Doesn't that assume that the "Muslim community" is extremely monolithic and extremely disciplined?

In reality, surely "the Muslim community" encompasses everyone from devout, bearded, foreign-born old men via housewives to English-born, non-devout young hotheads just wanting some kicks and status? Is a 21-year-old from a Muslim background any more likely to listen to his "elders and betters" than a 21-year-old from a white or black background? I'm sure parents try to influence their own kids, but are probably too busy working, looking for work, running businesses or running families to police young men from other Muslim families - even assuming such tearaways would listen to them.

My Dad's Irish. When the IRA were bombing the country, he didn't see it as his duty, as a "member of the Irish community" to persuade young Irish people not to support the IRA. He didn't support them himself and was too busy getting on with his life and supporting his family.

Likewise, while I'd vigorously discourage my daughter from getting involved with a group like the BNP or EDL when she's older, is there any guarantee that I'd have any sway if she was inclined to such extremism? I certainly wouldn't seek to intervene in other people's families if they contained white extremists, Jihadists, IRA supporters or anything similar. Should I?

Your dad didn't put money in collections got IRA prisoners in Irish pubs

Your dad didn't attend rally's

If the priest at the Catholic Church was preaching hatred of the English he would more than likely spoke out

If he knew there was Irish lads recruiting for the ira he would have spoken out !

in fact the IRA wouldn't have been halted only for Irish people in the super grass programme

That's what's needed in the Muslim community !

I was in Luton recently and two guys were preaching in street not one Muslim person challenged them ! Not one despise the aweful things they were saying !

[Mike Oxlong]

Luton - birthplace of Al Muhajiroun and the EDL

Pimple on the arsehole of this country.

[The Railway Man]

Your dad didn't put money in collections got IRA prisoners in Irish pubs

Your dad didn't attend rally's

If the priest at the Catholic Church was preaching hatred of the English he would more than likely spoke out

If he knew there was Irish lads recruiting for the ira he would have spoken out !

in fact the IRA wouldn't have been halted only for Irish people in the super grass programme

That's what's needed in the Muslim community !

I was in Luton recently and two guys were preaching in street not one Muslim person challenged them ! Not one despise the aweful things they were saying !

 

Often thought the same about Abu Hamza, why didn't a few members of the massive moderate Muslim community go and drag him off the corner of Hyde Park by the neck? I'm pretty sure members of every other faith would have had one of the same been doing it.

 

It's time to admit the Muslim community has completely failed in respect to eradicting this sort of thing, we need to give them all the help they need but they really have to step up there game.

[Captain...]

Doesn't that assume that the "Muslim community" is extremely monolithic and extremely disciplined?

In reality, surely "the Muslim community" encompasses everyone from devout, bearded, foreign-born old men via housewives to English-born, non-devout young hotheads just wanting some kicks and status? Is a 21-year-old from a Muslim background any more likely to listen to his "elders and betters" than a 21-year-old from a white or black background? I'm sure parents try to influence their own kids, but are probably too busy working, looking for work, running businesses or running families to police young men from other Muslim families - even assuming such tearaways would listen to them.

My Dad's Irish. When the IRA were bombing the country, he didn't see it as his duty, as a "member of the Irish community" to persuade young Irish people not to support the IRA. He didn't support them himself and was too busy getting on with his life and supporting his family.

Likewise, while I'd vigorously discourage my daughter from getting involved with a group like the BNP or EDL when she's older, is there any guarantee that I'd have any sway if she was inclined to such extremism? I certainly wouldn't seek to intervene in other people's families if they contained white extremists, Jihadists, IRA supporters or anything similar. Should I?

If that is true, then it would be fair to assume it is kids who have grown up Muslim and rebelled and then due to the indoctrinated guilt and shame about their youthful exuberance it has made them easier to convert to the extremes.

The human psyche isn't as strong as we like to think, and feelings like shame can be easily manipulated.

Whilst it would be impossible for muslim's to police themselves they should be promoting the peaceful, tolerant side of religion and not cast out those that transgress leaving these lapsed Muslims open to be radicalised.

[Alf Bentley]

Your dad didn't put money in collections got IRA prisoners in Irish pubs

Your dad didn't attend rally's

If the priest at the Catholic Church was preaching hatred of the English he would more than likely spoke out

If he knew there was Irish lads recruiting for the ira he would have spoken out !

in fact the IRA wouldn't have been halted only for Irish people in the super grass programme

That's what's needed in the Muslim community !

I was in Luton recently and two guys were preaching in street not one Muslim person challenged them ! Not one despise the aweful things they were saying !

 

 

I don't think my Dad would have spoken out publicly against IRA recruiters. He had more desire for self-preservation than that....though he did tell the priest that he doubted God's existence and was told to go away and examine his conscience. 

 

Like most Irish in past decades, I assume that most Muslims are too busy making a living and sustaining their families to go chasing after young radicals, unless the radicals happen to be in their own family or directly affect them.

Most Muslims over 30 will probably know little about such radicals. That may be an argument for intervention at the level of a generation (the young), not that of the "Muslim community" as a whole, if such a monolith exists.

 

So, if people were preaching hate in the streets of Luton, did you challenge them? If not, why not? It's your country too, isn't it? Are you implicitly accepting that the country should be divided into different cultural communities?

 

I'm not saying that because I'm some sort of hero who'd have intervened. I'm not. I might challenge a white supremacist, Islamist or pro-IRA person in the street, but only if I had the time and didn't feel in danger. Society as a whole and its agents (teachers, parents, police, youth workers, probation officers, politicians) should be tackling this. As a young man who sometimes frequented Irish pubs, I usually declined to buy a copy of "An Phoblacht" (the pro-Irish Republican paper), but I did buy it a couple of times when I sensed that there were some serious pro-IRA types in the pub. Likewise, there's a bloke a couple of doors down from me who keeps yelling foul drunken abuse and violent threats at his flatmate (and I've heard that he has a prison record for violence). As a young, single man, I might well have had a word with him and asked him to cool it - but I wouldn't now, partly due to age but mainly because I'd be concerned about the potential impact on my daughter.

 

Is it realistic to expect individual Muslims (office/factory workers, housewives, pensioners, shopkeepers) to police young people from Muslim families who go off the rails (sometimes without the knowledge of their own families/neighbours) or get recruited by extremists? Certainly, mosques can ensure that hate preachers aren't allowed access to their premises - but last night's programme suggested that most such recruitment in France/Belgium took place online or in prisons, not at mosques. Siddique Khan recruited the other 7/7 bombers via a youth group/health centre, I think.

 

While Muslim communities, families, mosques and youth groups have a role to play, I don't accept this idea that it's down to the "Muslim community" to "police their own". That accepts the very ideas promoted by the Jihadists - that Muslims should be a separate group from the rest of society. All sorts of people have differences in the lives they lead because of their age, gender, race, religion, sexuality, whatever. As a society, we should be encouraging MORE contact and understanding between different groups, not saying: "you're different, you police your own!".

[Alf Bentley]

If that is true, then it would be fair to assume it is kids who have grown up Muslim and rebelled and then due to the indoctrinated guilt and shame about their youthful exuberance it has made them easier to convert to the extremes.

The human psyche isn't as strong as we like to think, and feelings like shame can be easily manipulated.

Whilst it would be impossible for muslim's to police themselves they should be promoting the peaceful, tolerant side of religion and not cast out those that transgress leaving these lapsed Muslims open to be radicalised.

 

 

Fair comment, at least in part.

 

I wonder how many have been "cast out", though? My impression is that it is more a case of young people drifting away and leading different lives away from their elders, much as happens with young people from other ethnic/religious backgrounds.

I've not heard anything about these latest young Jihadis - or the 7/7 bombers before them - being shunned by their community. My parents were pretty clueless as to what I was up to in my 20s and hadn't shunned me - it just so happens that I was only off having fun and making a drunken fool of myself, not starting Jihad!

[Thracian]

None of the above explains why we'd keep importing more people who don't naturally belong here or support our way of life. I lived through the 50s and 60s when the UK was a thoroughly pleasant place to live. It's not now.   

[z-layrex]

None of the above explains why we'd keep importing more people who don't naturally belong here or support our way of life. I lived through the 50s and 60s when the UK was a thoroughly pleasant place to live. It's not now.

I can't speak for the 50's or 60's as I was born in the 80's, but to me despite it all it still feels like a very nice place to live. Here in the south east anyway.

[bovril]

None of the above explains why we'd keep importing more people who don't naturally belong here or support our way of life. I lived through the 50s and 60s when the UK was a thoroughly pleasant place to live. It's not now.   

 

Pretty subjective.My Dad grew up in London after the war and speaks not too fondly of the experience.

[Captain...]

Fair comment, at least in part.

 

I wonder how many have been "cast out", though? My impression is that it is more a case of young people drifting away and leading different lives away from their elders, much as happens with young people from other ethnic/religious backgrounds.

I've not heard anything about these latest young Jihadis - or the 7/7 bombers before them - being shunned by their community. My parents were pretty clueless as to what I was up to in my 20s and hadn't shunned me - it just so happens that I was only off having fun and making a drunken fool of myself, not starting Jihad!

 

Sorry  quoted the wrong bit:

 

 

The interviews with former neighbours depicted the terrorists not as devout obsessives, but as "normal blokes". They were described as being on the dole, smoking weed, chasing girls etc

 

The comments about them smoking weed and acting very un Muslim-like, maybe they weren't cast out, but would have realised their behaviour was not Muslim norm, and probably didn't feel connected to their mosque during that period and seemingly didn't reconnect.

 

We all do stupid things in our youth and should all be forgiven and still loved by our family, but religion is a different matter and it could be that these young Muslims didn't feel they were welcome back in their local mosques, but still had indoctrinated guilt from being raised Muslim. When a chance for religious redemption comes along they end up being radicalised. 

 

If this is the case that they are targeting disillusioned Muslims that have left their mosques then mosques should be trying to bring these people back in to the fold, and not push them further away for being young and making mistakes. From your post it doesn't sound like they are recruiting hardline Muslims but lapsed Muslims that have lost their way.

 

A lot of that is supposition and speculation, and probably poorly explained.

[Captain...]

 

While Muslim communities, families, mosques and youth groups have a role to play, I don't accept this idea that it's down to the "Muslim community" to "police their own". That accepts the very ideas promoted by the Jihadists - that Muslims should be a separate group from the rest of society. All sorts of people have differences in the lives they lead because of their age, gender, race, religion, sexuality, whatever. As a society, we should be encouraging MORE contact and understanding between different groups, not saying: "you're different, you police your own!".

 

Fair point, the people telling them that they should police themselves are usually the same as those that are up in arms about Sharia Law being practiced in Britain.

[AKCJ]

Doesn't that assume that the "Muslim community" is extremely monolithic and extremely disciplined?

 

In reality, surely "the Muslim community" encompasses everyone from devout, bearded, foreign-born old men via housewives to English-born, non-devout young hotheads just wanting some kicks and status? Is a 21-year-old from a Muslim background any more likely to listen to his "elders and betters" than a 21-year-old from a white or black background? I'm sure parents try to influence their own kids, but are probably too busy working, looking for work, running businesses or running families to police young men from other Muslim families - even assuming such tearaways would listen to them.

 

My Dad's Irish. When the IRA were bombing the country, he didn't see it as his duty, as a "member of the Irish community" to persuade young Irish people not to support the IRA. He didn't support them himself and was too busy getting on with his life and supporting his family.

 

Likewise, while I'd vigorously discourage my daughter from getting involved with a group like the BNP or EDL when she's older, is there any guarantee that I'd have any sway if she was inclined to such extremism? I certainly wouldn't seek to intervene in other people's families if they contained white extremists, Jihadists, IRA supporters or anything similar. Should I?

 

I literarally didn't mean anything like what you've assumed.

 

Hatred is being clearly being preached in an attempt to recruit in Europe.

 

This means that there are people out there making themselves known to Muslims in an attempt to breed new ISIS recruits. No?

 

I'm simply saying that people who listen to this should be making efforts to ensure that as few people get to hear these preachers as possible. This comes about by informing the police.

[Alf Bentley]

None of the above explains why we'd keep importing more people who don't naturally belong here or support our way of life. I lived through the 50s and 60s when the UK was a thoroughly pleasant place to live. It's not now.   

 

 

These things are very subjective, but I'm sure some things were better about the 50s/60s (community spirit, employment) and some things worse (living standards, disease, social intolerance).

 

I think we all end up thinking "things were better in my day". I find myself disparaging modern values - and Youtube is full of people saying how much better music was in the 70s/80s (the era of my youth).

Your comment does sound a bit like you're auditioning to replace the late Warren Mitchell, though! 

 

I agree that we need to exert more careful control over immigration - overall nature/volumes of immigrants, how they integrate into society - and keeping out people actively hostile to freedom and tolerance, such as Jihadists.

 

I'm not sure how one "naturally belongs" as an immigrant, though. Did the Romans, Saxons, Normans, Huguenots, Jews, Irish, West Indians, Sikhs or Hindus naturally belong? Has society suddenly become static after being in flux for centuries? Or is it just Muslims in general (and not just anti-Western Jihadists) who do not "naturally belong"?

 

Enough on immigration. I've got work to do and positions tend to be deeply entrenched.

 

On a more positive note, I'm looking forward hopefully in expectation of a moving response from the Wembley crowd tonight, to show that we plan to continue to value freedom, tolerance and fun and do not plan to be pushed around by a hateful death cult.

[Guest]

I take your point but these aren't as widespread and fatal as the attacks in Paris or Tunisia - the perpetrators of those attacks are abhorrent but they're mostly isolated cases really whereas Jihadism is far broader and dangerous. Islamic extremism is a much greater threat to Europe right here and now.

 

It's not long ago that christian was killing christian (as opposed to the maiming happening now) in the name of religion on OUR OWN soil.

[Guest]

Interesting hearing Hollande just now use the word 'War' so many times, though I do agree, and confirms France will intensify operations in Syria.

 

Politics, popularity and a counter argument to "illegal" strikes.

[Guest]

 

here we go!!

 

France's fight is our fight - UK defence secretary

Posted at16.44

Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has said the UK must reconsider launching air strikes against Islamic State targets in Syria, a move that would require consent from parliament.

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Fallon said the French had made the right decision in stepping up its air strikes on the IS stronghold of Raqqa following Friday's attacks, because it was clear they had been planned in northern Syria.

"France's fight is our fight" he stressed. "The terror is on our own doorstep."

 

 

Amazes me how the French govt. know where the training centres and HQ of ISIS are and have bombed them in the last 2 days but did nothing about this 6 months ago.

[Guest]

It'd be a nice gesture if our players and our crowd sang the French national anthem on Tuesday night. 

 

I think this is being made to national again and missing the fact it's international.

 

Can't think of any reason for Brits to sing the French anthem. In fact I'd find it quite embarrassing.

[Guest]

Okay, an atom bomb then. Seemed to work 70 years ago.

 

Were you born in 1999?

 

Education is getting worse.

[Itsthejoeker]

Amazes me how the French govt. know where the training centres and HQ of ISIS are and have bombed them in the last 2 days but did nothing about this 6 months ago.

 

Do you seriously think that they immediately bomb everything the moment they find out about it? There's processes they need to go through to get clearance, there's check they need to do to make sure the target is credible, and then there's the fact that not destroying the place can uncover huge amounts of intel about what ISIS are doing and where they are targeting.

[Captain...]

Do you seriously think that they immediately bomb everything the moment they find out about it? There's processes they need to go through to get clearance, there's check they need to do to make sure the target is credible, and then there's the fact that not destroying the place can uncover huge amounts of intel about what ISIS are doing and where they are targeting.

 

It's a fine line, Intel is great if it keeps you safe, and the only way to stop a terrorist organisation is to get to those at the top and the recruiters, those funding them and radicalising more recruits. But if it isn't keeping you safe then it isn't worth it. If you know someone is a threat and don't do anything about it and he kills hundreds of people, then you have not protected your people.

[MooseBreath]

Something we shouldnt forget, out of the x- millions of Muslims who have made their homes

around Europe, these young people that are coaxed into joining these terrorist organisations

out of naivity, or frustrations are still in comparison in the very few.Maybe not even between

1-3 thousands .

More than 1k have gone to join IS from the UK alone I believe

[Itsthejoeker]

It's a fine line, Intel is great if it keeps you safe, and the only way to stop a terrorist organisation is to get to those at the top and the recruiters, those funding them and radicalising more recruits. But if it isn't keeping you safe then it isn't worth it. If you know someone is a threat and don't do anything about it and he kills hundreds of people, then you have not protected your people.

 

Of course, but FIF is almost suggesting there's a conspiracy that they've just bombed a random target

[ramboacdc]

charlie hebdo still in good spirits it seems:

 

11:46

The French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo - 11 of whose staff were killed by Islamist militants in an attack in Paris in January - has published the front cover of its latest issue. 

The cartoon, by Coco, carries a defiant message: "They've got weapons. Screw them, we've got champagne!"

Charlie Hebdo

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[GaelicFox]

Luton - birthplace of Al Muhajiroun and the EDL

Pimple on the arsehole of this country.

Totally agree