Hillsborough Inquest Finds 96 Liverpool Fans Were 'Unlawfully Killed'

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Yes you can. As I think you said earlier, 2 of the jury disagreed themselves.

I'm with you though that the fans (as a generalisation, not all as individuals) have to shoulder some of the blame.

Obviously some of the police and emergency services tried their damnedest, whilst some didn't. Obviously some, probably most, of the fans just got caught up in events, but it's naive to believe not a single fan acted yobbishly.

I would suggest that's a view that's probably best kept to yourself and that you may wish to rethink what you've said on today of all days.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The main video on the Guardian story is outstanding:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-inquest-jury-returns-verdict-live-updates?page=with:block-571f3f4ce4b0a57b991f6355#liveblog-navigation

 

(Edit: scroll down to the 'video into the background to the disaster')

 

Yes, it's David Conn narrating. That guy is a truly fine journalist, and whatever anyone thinks about his Trestellar reporting, if you see the big picture, he really is on our side.

Watched it - thanks for directing me to it.

[The Railway Man]

Yes you can. As I think you said earlier, 2 of the jury disagreed themselves.

I'm with you though that the fans (as a generalisation, not all as individuals) have to shoulder some of the blame.

Obviously some of the police and emergency services tried their damnedest, whilst some didn't. Obviously some, probably most, of the fans just got caught up in events, but it's naive to believe not a single fan acted yobbishly.

 

Of course. I think everyone knows deep down the fans acted yobbishly, we've seen it, hence where they had to take this trial to get the result they wanted ie everyone was to blame but the fans, that wasn't happening anywhere outside the North West.

 

A tragedy though and no doubt the main culprits for what happened are all shamed by the evidence, I do hope we won't see Ambulance staff from that day hauled up before the courts though now and sent to prison.

Edited 26 April 2016 by The Railway Man

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Of course. I think everyone knows deep down the fans acted yobbishly, we've seen it, hence where they had to take this trial to get the result they wanted ie everyone was to blame but the fans, that wasn't happening anywhere outside the North West.

 

A tragedy though and no doubt the main culprits for what happened are all shamed by the evidence, I do hope we won't see Ambulance staff from that day hauled up before the courts though now and sent to prison.

You both need to have a think about what you're saying and implying.

You are essentially pushing a milder version that the Yorkshire police tried to put across, suggesting fan behaviour contributed to 96 people being crushed to death.

I would never wish to curtail someone from expressing their view, but I don't think you're really considering your cause and effect arguments here.

[ozleicester]

If this is trolling, you should be ashamed of yourselves.... if you believe what you are saying, i feel sorry for your ignorance and simple stupidity.

[The Railway Man]

I would never wish to curtail someone from expressing their view, but I don't think you're really considering your cause and effect arguments here.

 

It'a small internet forum, I doubt there is much effect, have a look at the Sky News posts on Facebook etc, many people and saying far worse and a huge amount whilst criticising the police etc still can't believe no blame has been attached to hundreds or possibly thousands of people we have seen breaching security and jumping over turnstiles to get into an end where 96 people died because it was too overcrowded.

 

We'll end up blaming Heysal on the Tories at this rate by the end of the night.

[stripeyfox]

Of course. I think everyone knows deep down the fans acted yobbishly, we've seen it, hence where they had to take this trial to get the result they wanted ie everyone was to blame but the fans, that wasn't happening anywhere outside the North West.

A tragedy though and no doubt the main culprits for what happened are all shamed by the evidence, I do hope we won't see Ambulance staff from that day hauled up before the courts though now and sent to prison.

It's a football crowd! "Yobbish" behaviour as you put it, is to be expected at a football match. It should not have come as a shock to the police that people would be in high spirits. It is the job of the police and the people in control of the stadium, stewards etc to manage the crowd.

If the police had deployed the same tactics as they did the previous year (same fixture, FA Cup SF Liverpool v Forest at Hillsborough) then the build up of supporters outside the Leppings Lane end would not have happened.

This trial (as you called it - it is actually an inquest) is long overdue and is the first time that we have had a real look at the facts. Now, the jury has made it's conclusions.

You implication that the inquest is a sham is insulting to everybody. Whilst the people who were crushed to death at Hillsborough were not even cold, Superintendent Duckenfield was already leaking lies to Graham Kelly (the FA Chief) that the Liverpool fans had forced open a gate.

It really is shameful. I am glad for the families that after 27 years, they finally have the truth laid out.

[The Railway Man]

It's a football crowd! "Yobbish" behaviour as you put it, is to be expected at a football match. It should not have come as a shock to the police that people would be in high spirits. It is the job of the police and the people in control of the stadium, stewards etc to manage the crowd.

If the police had deployed the same tactics as they did the previous year (same fixture, FA Cup SF Liverpool v Forest at Hillsborough) then the build up of supporters outside the Leppings Lane end would not have happened.

This trial (as you called it - it is actually an inquest) is long overdue and is the first time that we have had a real look at the facts. Now, the jury has made it's conclusions.

You implication that the inquest is a sham is insulting to everybody. Whilst the people who were crushed to death at Hillsborough were not even cold, Superintendent Duckenfield was already leaking lies to Graham Kelly (the FA Chief) that the Liverpool fans had forced open a gate.

It really is shameful. I am glad for the families that after 27 years, they finally have the truth laid out.

 

For the last time no one is saying the authorities weren't to blame, we know they lied, we know they tried to cover up, that;s beyond doubt, no one is arguing that point whatsoever, what a lot of people can't understand is how Liverpool fans have come out of this completely scot free when it's clear they had something to do with it.

 

Why did they change the inquest to Warrington as well? It was supposed to be in London when the idea was first mooted. It was a 7-2 majority, it's worth noting that if this was a court of law that wouldn't have been accepted as a conclusive decision from a jury.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

It'a small internet forum, I doubt there is much effect, have a look at the Sky News posts on Facebook etc, many people and saying far worse and a huge amount whilst criticising the police etc still can't believe no blame has been attached to hundreds or possibly thousands of people we have seen breaching security and jumping over turnstiles to get into an end where 96 people died because it was too overcrowded.

 

We'll end up blaming Heysal on the Tories at this rate by the end of the night.

I'm simply trying to get you to reflect on what your saying and hopefully, withdraw the comments.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Watched it - thanks for directing me to it.

 

Are we really saying that this was ENTIRELY the fault of the authorities and not a single fan acted out of self-preservation and made the problem worse?

 

I never said the crowd acted yobbishly, but any look at any football crowd (or even an everyday street), will reveal individuals acting yobbishly. I have severe doubts that all the people who died on that day did so exclusively from the actions of the authorities.

 

It was a terrible tragedy - 96 people died - and the real shame is that in 27 years, no one has stepped up to accept any share of the responsibilty for what happened, when there were myriads of factors in play.

 

Is this justice? Of course it isn't, it's a pale shadow of it. What can make things right? Nothing, none of those people deserved to die. Certainly people in positions of authority on that day need to be made accountable, but it is also my feeling that there are Liverpool fans - and I mean a few, not many - who will always be haunted in the knowledge that if they had acted differently on that day, then some of those 96 might not have died.

 

This isn't trolling, I'm just stating a fact of life that very few things are ever clear cut, especially after 27 years.

[whetstonefox]

Growing up in the 80s football supporters were seen as scum, Thatcher wanted identity cards to attend football matches,Ken Bates wanted an electric fences atStamford Bridge, facilities were wank. Hillsborough had previous incidents in 81,87 and 88, I always remember the pens either side of the crush , half empty, as fans you would always go to the 'centre' pens, crazy design.

We beat Chelsea that day 2-0, their first defeat for 30 odd games, but I remember going back to local social club watching the news, just went gradually silent.

I think terracing is safe, many people still stand on terracing.

Fans were treated as animals, completely different to the 'Sky' generation nowadays.

Glad they finally have justice, no one should ever go to a football match and never return home.

[Detroit Blues]

For the last time no one is saying the authorities weren't to blame, we know they lied, we know they tried to cover up, that;s beyond doubt, no one is arguing that point whatsoever, what a lot of people can't understand is how Liverpool fans have come out of this completely scot free when it's clear they had something to do with it.

 

Why did they change the inquest to Warrington as well? It was supposed to be in London when the idea was first mooted. It was a 7-2 majority, it's worth noting that if this was a court of law that wouldn't have been accepted as a conclusive decision from a jury.

 

StripeyFox made a very good point, and I think it's one that you're missing Railway. 

 

This post does a good job describing how crowd crushing and crowd mechanics works:

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm?context=3

 

Here are a few of the more important quotes:

 

 

 

"Basically when people start to move in very high density crowds, each individual physically doesn't have enough space around them to behave like a normal person who acts based on decisions anymore, but rather the entire crowd starts moving like a fluid, forced forward by the pressure of the people walking forwards behind them..." 

The first one results in what is called 'crowd crush'. This is where you have an extremely large and high density crowd, typical for those seen at events like the Hajj, moving in one direction in a confined space. This can be as wide as a city block or as narrow as a hallway. The crowd will be moving in its desired direction, but as soon as it hits a choke point, such as a blocked entrance, a sharp turn, a single open doorway, or even another high density crowd coming from the opposite direction, the people at the front face a serious problem. They are not merely walking anymore, they are being carried in the crowd fluid and could not stop if they tried (and would probably fall over). Survivors of crushes have described the experience like you're being carried by a river of people. The people at the very front of the crowd (who are not at dangerous densities) will make it through the choke point, unless it's a blocked entrance of course, but the high density crowd inevitably follows, carried by force. If the choke point is too narrow for the entire crowd to fit through, people literally just plug it up and are unable to squeeze through the gap anymore, and are being evermore crushed by the force of people behind them. 

 

The mechanics of getting fans into the stadium was not adequately policed which led to the people in the front having nowhere to go while people behind them try to push the group forward. Why do the people behind them push forward? Because the people behind them are pushing forward, and so on.

 

The police have the ability to break up this crowd force by using horses to funnel the crowd saftley away from the obstacles in the crowd's path and to the sides where they can pass through. The issue was that the circumstances were ripe for a catastrophe, and it is the police's responsibility to not only foresee the potential hazard, but to prevent it from happening in the first place. To compound the blame onto the police, they also failed to release the pressure by removing the barriers when the situation arose which could have mitigated the number of people who were hurt or killed. 

 

The problem isn't the actions of individuals, because had they not been there it could have happened anyway. By putting any amount of blame on Liverpool supporters, it is like you are blaming a single snowball for being the source of an avalanche. It is the inevitable result when the circumstances are perfect, like they were that day. 

 

The reason you are upsetting people is that, not only is it distasteful to go around victim blaming, but it let's the police off of the hook for being criminally negligent.  

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Are we really saying that this was ENTIRELY the fault of the authorities and not a single fan acted out of self-preservation and made the problem worse?

I never said the crowd acted yobbishly, but any look at any football crowd (or even an everyday street), will reveal individuals acting yobbishly. I have severe doubts that all the people who died on that day did so exclusively from the actions of the authorities.

It was a terrible tragedy - 96 people died - and the real shame is that in 27 years, no one has stepped up to accept any share of the responsibilty for what happened, when there were myriads of factors in play.

Is this justice? Of course it isn't, it's a pale shadow of it. What can make things right? Nothing, none of those people deserved to die. Certainly people in positions of authority on that day need to be made accountable, but it is also my feeling that there are Liverpool fans - and I mean a few, not many - who will always be haunted in the knowledge that if they had acted differently on that day, then some of those 96 might not have died.

This isn't trolling, I'm just stating a fact of life that very few things are ever clear cut, especially after 27 years.

I suggest both of you search for the comprehensive CCTV footage which is available on YouTube and make sure you're happy you're making informed comments. Edited 26 April 2016 by DJ Barry Hammond

[pleatout]

Growing up in the 80s football supporters were seen as scum, Thatcher wanted identity cards to attend football matches,Ken Bates wanted an electric fences atStamford Bridge, facilities were wank. Hillsborough had previous incidents in 81,87 and 88, I always remember the pens either side of the crush , half empty, as fans you would always go to the 'centre' pens, crazy design.

We beat Chelsea that day 2-0, their first defeat for 30 odd games, but I remember going back to local social club watching the news, just went gradually silent.

I think terracing is safe, many people still stand on terracing.

Fans were treated as animals, completely different to the 'Sky' generation nowadays.

Glad they finally have justice, no one should ever go to a football match and never return home.

 

I could have written that myself.

 

For the total bellends that are still blaming the fans.  Read the 2 Taylor reports, especially the 1st - the Interim Report.  Staggeringly it's ALL in there.  It was ALL known from day one.  

 

And I quote from the section entitled "Was Drunkenness a Major Factor in the Crisis at the Turnstiles?"

"Superintendent Marshall and other officers criticised the crowd as unco-operative because police exhortations to stop pushing and to ease back were not heeded. How could they be? In that crush most people had no control over their movements at all."

 

From the section entitled "Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?"

"Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club’s electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets."

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/HWP000000180001.pdf

 

No matter how many times you repeat the lie, it will never become the truth.

[reynard]

Words cannot sum up my admiration for the sheer determination of the families who fought for justice for their loved ones for so many years.

 

Equally my contempt for the authorities who appear to have promulgated at best misleading information about the behaviour of fans makes me ashamed of them and the fact that at the time I believed them.

Hopefully now we can finally draw the curtains on that terrible day.

 

I also wonder if the real truths have come out concerning other such tragedies or whether there are more stones which need turning over.

[johnny the fox]

http://www.channel4.com/news/kelvin-mackenzie-doorstepped-by-channel-4-news  channel 4 tonight! 

[Fox92]

http://www.channel4.com/news/kelvin-mackenzie-doorstepped-by-channel-4-news  channel 4 tonight! 

 

Wonder if they print anything tomorrow. Wonder if they'll apologize. 

[GaelicFox]

It'a small internet forum, I doubt there is much effect, have a look at the Sky News posts on Facebook etc, many people and saying far worse and a huge amount whilst criticising the police etc still can't believe no blame has been attached to hundreds or possibly thousands of people we have seen breaching security and jumping over turnstiles to get into an end where 96 people died because it was too overcrowded.

We'll end up blaming Heysal on the Tories at this rate by the end of the night.

I'm with you on one thing exonerating all Liverpool fans when some of them obviously caused issues (watch the video) throws a shadow on this inquests findings

[johnny the fox]

Wonder if they print anything tomorrow. Wonder if they'll apologize. 

what can they say?  nice to see a verbal coward and bully cornered in his lair... still has nothing to say..

[GaelicFox]

You know what I'm shocked at , is that the people are generally shocked that the agents and forces of a thatcher police state acted corruptly

This has been going on since Robert Peel laced up a pair of hob boots to give some kid a kicking !

And if you think things are any different in these times you will be sadly mistaken !

Police PR and spin has actually become an industry.

But I'll also say compared to some other police forces globally our coppers do a fairly ok job

[Fox92]

what can they say?  nice to see a verbal coward and bully cornered in his lair... still has nothing to say..

 

Sorry?

[GaelicFox]

Wonder if they print anything tomorrow. Wonder if they'll apologize.

They will !

And it will be sickening

[johnny the fox]

Sorry?

Mackenzie was door stepped in true SUN fashion by channel 4.. he hid in his house....check the video out...

[Guest MattP]

That video is from 2012, The Sun apologised on the front page a few years ago, doubt they'll do it again.

[wurmer]

They will !

And it will be sickening

Nope, front page is a story about David Cameron and whatsapp.

Cvnts