Premier League Season 2016-17 Stuff it in here.

[yorkie1999]

8 minutes ago, norwichfox said:

The saying I heard was: There are lies, Damn Lies and then there are Statistics.....

Very true, i always thought the whole point of statistics is to support the lie, it's raw data that counts.

   If kante made 300 tackles in a match and won 150 of them, that's a success rate of 50%

   If Vidal made 8 tackles in a match and won 6 of them, that's a success rate of 75%

   Who's the better tackler?

[tom27111]

3 minutes ago, the fox said:

Meant to say numbers don't lie. But really, stats are showing that kantè is still far behind the truly elite mids of the world.

 

84.3% of stats are made up.

 

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

[the fox]

6 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

 

84.3% of stats are made up.

 

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

I thought it was scooby doo that said that. Oh well, you learn a new thing every day on the inter..... Oh oh! It was scobby and the internet is just trying to confuse me. Thanks, TV! You will never lie or fabricate news for your own gain.

[the fox]

12 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Very true, i always thought the whole point of statistics is to support the lie, it's raw data that counts.

   If kante made 300 tackles in a match and won 150 of them, that's a success rate of 50%

   If Vidal made 8 tackles in a match and won 6 of them, that's a success rate of 75%

   Who's the better tackler?

You mean cherry picked statistics are the ones used to support lies.

 

But you do realize that I put how many tackles in a game on the chart, right?

[yorkie1999]

1 minute ago, the fox said:

But you do realize that I put how many tackles in game on the chart, right?

Yes but its the % that is used as the measure.

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, the fox said:

They say stats don't lie. So, here is some stats from some world class players (plus dembele if you don't think he is world class)

20 deferent stats and kantè doesn't even lead in any one of them (yes, even tackles and intersection)

Just look at kantè vs Vidal, just pure domination from Vidal's side

 

 

So what we basically learn is that an orange, two apples, a banana and a cabbage are all different? Well done.

 

Vidal and Nainggolan are the only two there that are even vaguely similar footballers. The fact you even considered comparing Kante to Modric is hilarious and mystifying in equal measure.

 

Kante is a ball winner. Probably the most accurate, persistent, relentless ball winner I've ever seen. He's not measured on his key passes or his assists, it's all about interceptions and tackles.

 

The fact that Vidal (possibly the best box to box midfielder on the planet) has equally competitive defensive stats in a snapshot is no real discredit to Kante.

 

Kante is to tackling what Messi is to dribbling. You'd know that if you'd actually watched us last year instead of bandwagoning on the odd Mahrez video and claiming to be some lifelong Blue Army.

 

I swear sometimes you're just on the troll. I'm calling Loveday.

[the fox]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

Yes but its the % that is used as the measure.

No, its how many tackles per 90 minutes and its 2.44 for kantè and 2.06 for Vidal while dembele is at 2.83 per 90 minutes

[Max Wall]

14 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

 

84.3% of stats are made up.

 

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

It's 78.6% of statistics that are made up.

[norwichfox]

19 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

 

84.3% of stats are made up.

 

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

If only he'd taken his laptop to the theatre with him he's still be with us now

[Finnegan]

3 minutes ago, the fox said:

No, its how many tackles per 90 minutes and its 2.44 for kantè and 2.06 for Vidal while dembele is at 2.83 per 90 minutes

 

Statistics are an aid, not proof in and of themselves. I should qualify that by stating I produce and manage performance data for a living.

 

Example, your tackle statistics have no way of representing the opportunities that Ngolo Kante has to make a tackle in a game.

 

If Chelsea, who have been dominant this season, rarely surrender possession then their ball winning midfielder will have higher passing stats and lower tackling / intercepting stats than if they play like we did last year and operate a snatch and grab model of ball winning and counter attacking.

 

Kante has been excellent when the need has arisen this year but he's been less of an obvious impact in a Chelsea team that has him shackled deep in a midfield three compared to a Leicester side that averaged very low possession and let Ngolo hunt the ball.

 

These are considerations that hollow stats don't reflect.

 

 

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

 

13 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I swear sometimes you're just on the troll. I'm calling Loveday.

 

Probably the most insulting and nasty thing I've ever read on these forums.

[Izzy]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Statistics are an aid, not proof in and of themselves. I should qualify that by stating I produce and manage performance data for a living.

 

Example, your tackle statistics have no way of representing the opportunities that Ngolo Kante has to make a tackle in a game.

 

If Chelsea, who have been dominant this season, rarely surrender possession then their ball winning midfielder will have higher passing stats and lower tackling / intercepting stats than if they play like we did last year and operate a snatch and grab model of ball winning and counter attacking.

 

Kante has been excellent when the need has arisen this year but he's been less of an obvious impact in a Chelsea team that has him shackled deep in a midfield three compared to a Leicester side that averaged very low possession and let Ngolo hunt the ball.

 

These are considerations that hollow stats don't reflect.

 

 

And here's me thinking you posted on FT for a living 

[the fox]

22 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

So what we basically learn is that an orange, two apples, a banana and a cabbage are all different? Well done.

 

Vidal and Nainggolan are the only two there that are even vaguely similar footballers. The fact you even considered comparing Kante to Modric is hilarious and mystifying in equal measure.

 

Kante is a ball winner. Probably the most accurate, persistent, relentless ball winner I've ever seen. He's not measured on his key passes or his assists, it's all about interceptions and tackles.

 

The fact that Vidal (possibly the best box to box midfielder on the planet) has equally competitive defensive stats in a snapshot is no real discredit to Kante.

 

Kante is to tackling what Messi is to dribbling. You'd know that if you'd actually watched us last year instead of bandwagoning on the odd Mahrez video and claiming to be some lifelong Blue Army.

 

I swear sometimes you're just on the troll. I'm calling Loveday.

1-Compared modric to kantè because we are talking about midfielders in general not just the Vidal type

 

2-And even then he is not that much better than Vidal and radja (defensively ( while those two are much better offensively

 

3-Not discrediting kantè, just pointing out that he is not in the elite category (yet)

 

4-that was just weak, Finnegan! you can't discredit the message so you are trying to discredit the messenger. Oh well, whatever floats your boat I guess. But just for your information, I can count the games that I missed last season on one hand (most of them because I couldn't find a stream).

If I was a bandwagon fan I would've watched the clasico instead of a horrendous Leicester performance.

 

5- try to call for me to be banned then!

[Finnegan]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

And here's me thinking you posted on FT for a living 

 

If Mark paid me to spout this shit, I'd hand in my notice to my boss in a flash!

[TJB-fox]

Look at the so called best centre mids playing right now, Kroos, Iniesta, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio etc.. Although he may have a different role to each of these I firmly believe Kante makes the same level of contribution in each game in his area of expertise as these so called world beaters. Not saying he's the best CM in the world, but there ain't no one like Ngolo

[the fox]

12 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Statistics are an aid, not proof in and of themselves. I should qualify that by stating I produce and manage performance data for a living.

 

Example, your tackle statistics have no way of representing the opportunities that Ngolo Kante has to make a tackle in a game.

 

If Chelsea, who have been dominant this season, rarely surrender possession then their ball winning midfielder will have higher passing stats and lower tackling / intercepting stats than if they play like we did last year and operate a snatch and grab model of ball winning and counter attacking.

 

Kante has been excellent when the need has arisen this year but he's been less of an obvious impact in a Chelsea team that has him shackled deep in a midfield three compared to a Leicester side that averaged very low possession and let Ngolo hunt the ball.

 

These are considerations that hollow stats don't reflect.

 

 

1-And that's where the success ℅ comes in play (which I put in the stat chart)

 

2- Vidal is playing in a possession dominant team (probably the best with barca) so, isn't that helping in deflating Vidal's defensive stats

 

 

[FoxesDeb]

30 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

So what we basically learn is that an orange, two apples, a banana and a cabbage are all different? Well done.

 

Vidal and Nainggolan are the only two there that are even vaguely similar footballers. The fact you even considered comparing Kante to Modric is hilarious and mystifying in equal measure.

 

Kante is a ball winner. Probably the most accurate, persistent, relentless ball winner I've ever seen. He's not measured on his key passes or his assists, it's all about interceptions and tackles.

 

The fact that Vidal (possibly the best box to box midfielder on the planet) has equally competitive defensive stats in a snapshot is no real discredit to Kante.

 

Kante is to tackling what Messi is to dribbling. You'd know that if you'd actually watched us last year instead of bandwagoning on the odd Mahrez video and claiming to be some lifelong Blue Army.

 

I swear sometimes you're just on the troll. I'm calling Loveday.

As if we weren't all confused enough, now you're bringing Kapustka into it?

[Finnegan]

15 minutes ago, the fox said:

1-And that's where the success ℅ comes in play (which I put in the stat chart)

 

No, no it doesn't because it isn't that straightforward.

 

For example, if I make the bulk of my challenges by sliding / diving in when I've got a clear sight of the ball I may win a higher percentage of my tackles.

 

If a second player, as with Ngolo Kante, makes all of his tackles by nipping at the ball and staying on top of his opponent it may take him one or two bites of the cherry to win possession.

 

How many times have we seen Ngolo make almost a "double" tackle because he's chasing an opponent, trying to get his foot in?

 

By contrast, you won't see someone like Gary Medel or Marcin Wasilewski take the same approach, they're far more likely to go to ground and win the ball first time.

 

You see?

 

This isn't to say that statistics have no merit or value. They do, definitely, but they need to be treated as supporting evidence behind actual video footage, which is why our sports analysis team hands an iPad out to every player with feedback from their games, not just their stats on squawka with a postit saying "must do better."

[the fox]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

No, no it doesn't because it isn't that straightforward.

 

For example, if I make the bulk of my challenges by sliding / diving in when I've got a clear sight of the ball I may win a higher percentage of my tackles.

 

If a second player, as with Ngolo Kante, makes all of his tackles by nipping at the ball and staying on top of his opponent it may take him one or two bites of the cherry to win possession.

 

How many times have we seen Ngolo make almost a "double" tackle because he's chasing an opponent, trying to get his foot in?

 

By contrast, you won't see someone like Gary Medel or Marcin Wasilewski

 take the same approach, they're far more likely to go to ground and win the ball first time.

 

You see?

 

This isn't to say that statistics have no merit or value. They do, definitely, but they need to be treated as supporting evidence behind actual video footage, which is why our sports analysis team hands as iPad out to every player with feedback from their games, not just their stats on squawka with a postit saying "must do better."

1- OK, fair enough! It like 2 players averaging 1 tackle a game. But one's tackle is a run of the mill tackle while the other's is a game saving last man tackle. It has to have an importance and context. I got you.

 

2- kantè is an amazing player, no doubt about that. But, all that I was pointing to was that he is not an elite CM like Vidal (yet). He is world class but He needs to refine his game in order to become a top 5 midfielder.

 

 

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, the fox said:

1- OK, fair enough! It like 2 players averaging 1 tackle a game. But one's tackle is a run of the mill tackle while the other's is a game saving last man tackle. It has to have an importance and context. I got you.

 

2- kantè is an amazing player, no doubt about that. But, all that I was pointing to was that he is not an elite CM like Vidal (yet). He is world class but He needs to refine his game in order to become a top 5 midfielder.

 

 

 

But nobody is like Vidal. One of the best club sides on the planet paid nearly forty million euros (which isn't far off forty million proper money on current form) for the guy because he's probably the best box to box midfielder of his generation.

 

A midfielder as complete as Vidal is so rare that Manchester United just lumped 100m sterling on one that isn't even the finished product because they're hoping he'll develop in to a similar player.

 

Firstly, Kante is a specialist not an all-rounder and secondly, being not quite on Vidal's level really doesn't stop you being world class.

 

It's like saying Neymar isn't world class because Messi scores more.

[Max Wall]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

But nobody is like Vidal. One of the best club sides on the planet paid nearly forty million euros (which isn't far off forty million proper money on current form) for the guy because he's probably the best box to box midfielder of his generation.

 

A midfielder as complete as Vidal is so rare that Manchester United just lumped 100m sterling on one that isn't even the finished product because they're hoping he'll develop in to a similar player.

 

Firstly, Kante is a specialist not an all-rounder and secondly, being not quite on Vidal's level really doesn't stop you being world class.

 

It's like saying Neymar isn't world class because Messi scores more.

I think your boss will accept your resignation. How long are your lunch hours?

[Finnegan]

Just now, Max Wall said:

I think your boss will accept your resignation. How long are your lunch hours?

 

I'm a capable multi tasker.

[Max Wall]

Just now, Finnegan said:

 

I'm a capable multi tasker.

That's a capable reply too...........Well saved!

[Max Wall]

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'm a capable multi tasker.

A judge once told me I was capable but he pronounced it as if there was a U and an L in it.

[the fox]

15 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

But nobody is like Vidal. One of the best club sides on the planet paid nearly forty million euros (which isn't far off forty million proper money on current form) for the guy because he's probably the best box to box midfielder of his generation.

 

A midfielder as complete as Vidal is so rare that Manchester United just lumped 100m sterling on one that isn't even the finished product because they're hoping he'll develop in to a similar player.

 

Firstly, Kante is a specialist not an all-rounder and secondly, being not quite on Vidal's level really doesn't stop you being world class.

 

It's like saying Neymar isn't world class because Messi scores more.

1-I like the saying "jack of all trades, master of one". You being a specialist shouldn't stop you from trying to refine your game. I highly doubt that there will be many vidals in football. He is a master of many. He is the kawhi Leonard of football, elite defensively and offensively.

 

2- neymar and kantè are both world class (but neymar is elite while kantè isn't). No doubt kantè is a top 10 midfielder and neymar is a top 5 player in the world. But to be the best you have to surpass the best. I have such huge expectations for kantè because he is already so dominant in one aspect that he only needs to clean his game in order for him to be the best.