Labour party civil war

[The Guvnor]

That's her standard persona, to judge from previous interviews. She isn't big on charisma. Then again, neither is Theresa May, whereas Blair & Cameron were.....

Maybe we could do with a few less charismatic snake-oil salesmen and a few more competent, trustworthy, charisma-free bores?

 

Even I'm too young to remember Attlee, but my Dad (who loved him) remembered him as a personally very dull bloke. He just acted as a sort of chairman, allocating portfolios to ministers and sacking them if they weren't up to the job.

He remembered Attlee coming out of No. 10 on New Year's Day and a reporter asking him "Do you have a message for the nation, Mr. Attlee?". Attlee's response? "No".

Brilliant!     Can you imagine the sanctimonious guff that Blair or Cameron would have come out with?

 

Did Eagle mention any particular policies? She needs something to win people over....and it isn't going to be charisma!

 

Found you, you moved the post.

 

Trustworthy Eagle? a perfect comparison Mutiny on the Bounty ,Eagle being Christian and Corbyn the unfortunate Captain Bligh, Christian apparently came from Eaglesfield, ha ha the similarities are uncanny.

[reynard]

I wasn't around in the 80's so cant really say what it was like when the SDP were trying to run but as far as I know they never got in power and the split made the conservatives stronger, with labour voters splitting between themselves. Do you not think the same could happen here? Most Conservative voters will carry on voting conservative whilst the labour voters are now split in half on the new party or the old one?

 

Theres rumours that a pro-centralist EU party between Labour and conservatives could be made but to me that just sounds like the Lib dems. 

 

Well they merged with the liberal party eventually. I think a pro EU party might do quite well. It may have been presumed that the Conservatives would always win in the 80s but after Major's Government  they were booted out on the back of a massive labour majority. The Lib Dems have been conspicuous by their absence recently. Their demise at the last election has, in my opinion, played a large part in the brexit victory.

 

We have a very divided country at the moment and a right wing Conservative government is not the most likely of parties to unite the country but we'll see.

The trouble for Labour is that Corbyn is seen as very much a throw back to the 1970s with his strong union links. This basically stems from a right wing press but to be honest those of us who remember the 1970s don't recall with a great deal of fondness the continual strikes, the three day week, power going off at certain hours etc etc. Of course true left wing union supporters would tell you otherwise and would refer back to the curbing of Union powers which followed the 80s as an attack on worker's rights and democracy. There will always be a core Conservative vote but they shouldn't make the mistake of taking it for granted.

 

At the moment what concerns me is that we have no effective opposition. Whatever political colour you are this just isn't a healthy way to conduct political business. It appears we are likely to have a Conservative Government which may well veer more towards the right wing of the party whilst under Corbyn labour would go the other way. The gap in between then becomes open for a third party to emerge. Frankly at the moment who bloody knows!

[Alf Bentley]

Found you, you moved the post.

 

Trustworthy Eagle? a perfect comparison Mutiny on the Bounty ,Eagle being Christian and Corbyn the unfortunate Captain Bligh, Christian apparently came from Eaglesfield, ha ha the similarities are uncanny.

 

 

Well, Bligh made an extraordinary comeback, sailing his crew a phenomenal distance across the South Seas in a small craft, and he lived to old age as an admiral.....while Christian had a pleasurable time of leisure and fornication on his island, before dying young, possibly murdered.....so maybe that sounds better for Corbyn than for Eagle?

 

Sorry, Labour politics is such a shambles - and at such an important time - that it's hard to take it too seriously, though we should.

 

Oh, and any excuse to promote The Mekons. Here they are with "(Sometimes I feel like) Fletcher Christian" (I may well have been at this gig):

 

[Webbo]

Surely Ms Eagle is the stalking horse to get rid of Corbyn. Nobody who fancies their chances at being PM would risk standing atm.

[The Guvnor]

Well, Bligh made an extraordinary comeback, sailing his crew a phenomenal distance across the South Seas in a small craft, and he lived to old age as an admiral.....while Christian had a pleasurable time of leisure and fornication on his island, before dying young, possibly murdered.....so maybe that sounds better for Corbyn than for Eagle?

 

Sorry, Labour politics is such a shambles - and at such an important time - that it's hard to take it too seriously, though we should.

 

Oh, and any excuse to promote The Mekons. Here they are with "(Sometimes I feel like) Fletcher Christian" (I may well have been at this gig):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voIAoBfv_lc

Of course my post was light hearted to highlight the absurdity of the current Labour Party, still think Christian had the better deal though, probably died of a heart attack due to excessive fornication best way to go surely and Bligh in an open boat crammed full of minging sailors for weeks on end having to listen to unsufferable shanty tales

[Alf Bentley]

Surely Ms Eagle is the stalking horse to get rid of Corbyn. Nobody who fancies their chances at being PM would risk standing atm.

 

 

You may be right, Webbo, but it doesn't sound as if Corbyn intends to stand down.

 

Some think that a Labour NEC meeting will declare that Corbyn, like Eagle or anyone else, has to get the backing of 51 MPs to stand. If so, he'll be out as he won't get enough MPs.

The fact that Kinnock as party leader had to get MPs' signatures when Tony Benn stood against him in 1988 is cited as a precedent for this interpretation. But to me the wording of the new rule backs Corbyn's claim that only challengers have to get the support of MPs if there is no vacancy, not the incumbent leader. Even if Corbyn is effectively disqualified by the NEC, it could end up in court - and I reckon Corbyn could win the case.

 

If Corbyn's name is on the ballot sheet, it would surely be stupid to have more than one opponent, as it would just increase Corbyn's chances of winning (though the voting is by transferable vote, as I recall)?

[Nick]

I think Corbyn knew he'd have to fight his Westminster team from day 1..

I kinda hope he weathers the storm now and starts to stand up and counter.

[The Guvnor]

You may be right, Webbo, but it doesn't sound as if Corbyn intends to stand down.

 

Some think that a Labour NEC meeting will declare that Corbyn, like Eagle or anyone else, has to get the backing of 51 MPs to stand. If so, he'll be out as he won't get enough MPs.

The fact that Kinnock as party leader had to get MPs' signatures when Tony Benn stood against him in 1988 is cited as a precedent for this interpretation. But to me the wording of the new rule backs Corbyn's claim that only challengers have to get the support of MPs if there is no vacancy, not the incumbent leader. Even if Corbyn is effectively disqualified by the NEC, it could end up in court - and I reckon Corbyn could win the case.

 

If Corbyn's name is on the ballot sheet, it would surely be stupid to have more than one opponent, as it would just increase Corbyn's chances of winning (though the voting is by transferable vote, as I recall)?

 

 

I don't align myself in the slightest with Labour in any shape or form but I can't help feeling a little sorry for Corbyn  being hounded out by a group of hungry wolves who now have the scent of blood, and having to work in that atmosphere must be horrendous. The problem is the big unions now have a proper old school Socialist in place and will be desperate to try and keep him there so there lies the dichotomy his political views v managerial frailties.

[Alf Bentley]

I wasn't around in the 80's so cant really say what it was like when the SDP were trying to run but as far as I know they never got in power and the split made the conservatives stronger, with labour voters splitting between themselves. Do you not think the same could happen here? Most Conservative voters will carry on voting conservative whilst the labour voters are now split in half on the new party or the old one?

 

Theres rumours that a pro-centralist EU party between Labour and conservatives could be made but to me that just sounds like the Lib dems. 

 

 

You're right about what happened with the SDP in the 80s. A few Tories switched to the SDP, but they mainly attracted ex-Lab voters. In 1983, the Tories massively increased their majority despite getting a lower vote percentage than in 1979. Labour lost loads of seats because of their supporters switching to the Lib/SDP alliance, which got 25% of the vote, but only 23 seats (only 6 of them for the SDP), stymied by the electoral system as UKIP & the Greens were in 2015.

 

As things stand, that might well happen again. However, if either the Tories head off to the Right or the economy/society suffers a major crisis, a lot more Tory voters might be attracted to a centrist party.

 

Everything is in the flux at the moment. Labour are in a seriously big hole at the moment, but the Tories might only be a few months behind them...

The Lib Dems have probably switched back from a centre-right to a centre-left party after replacing Clegg with Farron. How any new centrist or left party related to them and to the Greens is one of many things that are unclear.

[Alf Bentley]

I think Corbyn knew he'd have to fight his Westminster team from day 1..

I kinda hope he weathers the storm now and starts to stand up and counter.

 

 

I wish he'd stood up and countered effectively months ago. I like a lot of his ideas, but how many people has he conveyed them to, apart from his own supporters?

 

In particular, I wish he'd stood up and been an effective performer during the EU referendum. The biggest vote in living memory and he copped out massively, and probably cynically. As he is a long-term Eurosceptic, I presume that he cynically sabotaged the Labour Party's Remain campaign by sitting on his arse while Cameron and Boris fought it out. The consequences of that could be disastrous for the people he's supposed to represent.

 

Kinnock described him as "vain" and I can relate to that. He'd prefer to stand in front of the mirror, or preach to the converted, preening himself at how morally and ideologically perfect his policies are from a left-wing perspective. To him, "compromise" is a dirty word. He'd rather stay "pure" and leave the Tories in power. Post-Brexit, it seems that almost all our national legislation will need to be rewritten. With Corbyn in post, it will be rewritten by the Tory Govt - and possibly a very Right-wing Tory Govt - possibly with no meaningful input or opposition from Labour.

 

It's important for a leader to reach out to those with different ideas, to win the support of a broad alliance. Having a broad base of support matters - and winning (or threatening to win) power matters. A credible, effective opposition limits and influences what a government can do.

 

I hope he's gone ASAP, but that his replacement keeps some of his policies on austerity, investment, public services, tax avoidance, redistribution, protection for pay/conditions, support for the integration of migrants & internationalism - and retains enough idealism to keep some of Corbyn's young supporters (though the personality cult types can take a hike).

[Dr The Singh]

I wish he'd stood up and countered effectively months ago. I like a lot of his ideas, but how many people has he conveyed them to, apart from his own supporters?

In particular, I wish he'd stood up and been an effective performer during the EU referendum. The biggest vote in living memory and he copped out massively, and probably cynically. As he is a long-term Eurosceptic, I presume that he cynically sabotaged the Labour Party's Remain campaign by sitting on his arse while Cameron and Boris fought it out. The consequences of that could be disastrous for the people he's supposed to represent.

Kinnock described him as "vain" and I can relate to that. He'd prefer to stand in front of the mirror, or preach to the converted, preening himself at how morally and ideologically perfect his policies are from a left-wing perspective. To him, "compromise" is a dirty word. He'd rather stay "pure" and leave the Tories in power. Post-Brexit, it seems that almost all our national legislation will need to be rewritten. With Corbyn in post, it will be rewritten by the Tory Govt - and possibly a very Right-wing Tory Govt - possibly with no meaningful input or opposition from Labour.

It's important for a leader to reach out to those with different ideas, to win the support of a broad alliance. Having a broad base of support matters - and winning (or threatening to win) power matters. A credible, effective opposition limits and influences what a government can do.

I hope he's gone ASAP, but that his replacement keeps some of his policies on austerity, investment, public services, tax avoidance, redistribution, protection for pay/conditions, support for the integration of migrants & internationalism - and retains enough idealism to keep some of Corbyn's young supporters (though the personality cult types can take a hike).

We're doomed

[Thracian]

Isabel Oakshott just said exactly what I was thinking, never seen a person launch a leadership bid looking so utterly miserable.

 

 

Seems to be the mood of the moment. Murray coach Lendl looked morose and Raonic's camp seemed no different, for all that their man had reached his first Wimbledon final, played okay and still picked up an £880,000 consolation prize for coming second. I'd be grinning from ear to ear.  

[Guest MattP]

Cracking argument on the Daily Politics between Chukka Umanna and a Corbynista. She almost went as far to say he was going to be deselected

They seem to have a bit of confidence Corbyn will need 51 MP's to stand again based on the Kinnock/Benn precedent.

This is going to get very messy and bloody.

[Guest]

If Corbyn stays then the likelihood is that there will be a new party formed rather like the SDP in the 1980s. A clear split in the opposition party maybe good for the country in the long term as a viable opposition is required for our democracy to work effectively. We don't want a situation where the government effectively steamrolls through anything without it being seriously debated.

 

The unanticipated result of the brexit vote is a country in a short term political shambles.

 

I'm hoping for this.

[Guest]

Cracking argument on the Daily Politics between Chukka Umanna and a Corbynista. She almost went as far to say he was going to be deselected

They seem to have a bit of confidence Corbyn will need 51 MP's to stand again based on the Kinnock/Benn precedent.

This is going to get very messy and bloody.

 

They do but I think the court will overturn that.

 

If they can't get ground roots support to remove corbyn then they have to accept him or form a new party.

 

When you devolve your power to the masses you have to live with the mess you get.

 

Ask Cameron.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I reckon there'll be some Labour insiders rethinking their position now.

Eagle's launch this morning has essentially been made redundant by other events and if the Conservatives are moving towards the centre ground (like May seemed to suggest in a very good speech this morning), the only way they could make the Tories feel right wing is by moving to the left.

I think they'll also realise the prospect of a snap election is slim now, so the need for change at the top isn't as urgent as it might have been.

If I was a Labour MP, I'd be more inclined to focus on my own consitiancy work to give myself the best chance of holding my seat rather than the infighting at the top.

[Webbo]

If Corbyn keeps the leadership then there is a chance of an election this year. The idea that the Labour party would vote to keep the Tories in govt is unimaginable.

[Thracian]

If Eagle wins Labour stay unelectable and the same saga goes on with a less likeable centrepiece.

 

 

That's harsh. I almost agree but it's harsh.  

[Guest MattP]

That moment when you realise the media haven't bothered to turn up

[Alf Bentley]

Both sides seem to think they have "the numbers" to win the vote at the NEC: Corbyn to have himself included in the leadership ballot, his opponents to require him to get the support of 51 MPs (effectively excluding him).

So, one side or other has got it wrong - and we'll find out who tomorrow (NEC meeting).

 

If Corbyn finds himself excluded from the ballot tomorrow, his opponents are  effectively daring him to sue his own party. To my mind, the wording of the rules supports Corbyn's interpretation, but God knows what the courts would say, if he calls his opponents' bluff. They are citing the precedent of Kinnock having to sign up MPs to fend off Benn's challenge in 1988, but that was under a different rule book, surely?

 

Whether we end up with Corbyn v. Eagle, some other combination of candidates or no leadership election, I struggle to see a scenario that doesn't involve an ugly civil war within the Labour Party. 

[Guest MattP]

If Corbyn is removed from the leadership election it will surely be first election where "spoilt ballot" actually wins in terms of numbers?

That would be pretty funny.

[Christoph]

Both sides seem to think they have "the numbers" to win the vote at the NEC: Corbyn to have himself included in the leadership ballot, his opponents to require him to get the support of 51 MPs (effectively excluding him).

So, one side or other has got it wrong - and we'll find out who tomorrow (NEC meeting).

If Corbyn finds himself excluded from the ballot tomorrow, his opponents are effectively daring him to sue his own party. To my mind, the wording of the rules supports Corbyn's interpretation, but God knows what the courts would say, if he calls his opponents' bluff. They are citing the precedent of Kinnock having to sign up MPs to fend off Benn's challenge in 1988, but that was under a different rule book, surely?

Whether we end up with Corbyn v. Eagle, some other combination of candidates or no leadership election, I struggle to see a scenario that doesn't involve an ugly civil war within the Labour Party.

The last paragraph is the sad truth.

Who the **** is going to vote Angela Eagle in a general election?! Really? But then I can't see many people in the countryside and suburbs voting for Corby either.

Cant handle more years of Conservative rule. I could build more houses than this government..

[Grewks]

The last paragraph is the sad truth.

Who the **** is going to vote Angela Eagle in a general election?! Really? But then I can't see many people in the countryside and suburbs voting for Corby either.

Cant handle more years of Conservative rule. I could build more houses than this government..

 

 

Personally couldn't bare a return to the labour days.

 

I will always vote for the working mans party, therefore, will always vote tory.

[theessexfox]

Simon Heffer came to my school today, he reckons that lawyers working for Labour who want Corbyn gone themselves seem to be conceding that Corbyn has to be on the ballot paper. 

[Guest MattP]

Angela Eagle facing a no confidence vote from her own constituency members