Strokes Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 3 minutes ago, Darkon84 said: Take your filthy facts elsewhere. They've no place here as they don't fit the narrative and outrage! I'm not sure if they are facts or not but I just read it as I seen your post. It seems the hysterical nature of the reporting/reaction is definitely clouding the truth though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 16 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: People are protesting against a completely arbitrary immigration ban and, in America, it seems to be by and large average folk rather than professional protesters on the streets. While I agree with you to some extent on the broader reasons why he won and how people should've dealt with those issues beforehand, I don't really see how that's relevant in this instance? Surely it's possible for normal people to find a single piece of legislation so abhorrent they feel it's worth standing up to? You obviously saw different pictures to me, I saw signs saying "no one is illegal" and "end capitalism" - hardly the staple of the average folk. They can find it abhorrent if they want (although that still doesn't explain the silence from them when Obama did it) but it's what he was elected on, in fact his election promise was far stronger than this. Tonight we have a protest against this in Westminster and Ed Miliband is speaking at it, Ed fcuking Miliband. The man who was at the forefront of calling for the bombing of Libya in 2011 which turned out to be a total disaster, a man will lecture Trump about Muslim refugees after playing a huge role in destroying a Muslim country and making millions refugees, it's unbelivable. The crowd should lynch him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: From my memory he said "Donald J Trump is calling for a total shutdown of Muslims entering the US".... He hasn't actually gone near what he promised to his voters yet. I can promise you barely any swing voters will be going off Trump because of a woman walking down the street dressed as vagina or a load of airport protestors demanding refugees are let in. If anything, they might be looking at the alternative and thinking they did the right thing. The swing voters went for him because their wallets were getting empty, not for any social reason. That's what they're going to judge him on, which is why I said this action won't really push them either way...but the longer the promised jobs don't show up and social issues dominate the more likely they'll get a bit antsy, I would guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 4 minutes ago, leicsmac said: The swing voters went for him because their wallets were getting empty, not for any social reason. That's what they're going to judge him on, which is why I said this action won't really push them either way...but the longer the promised jobs don't show up and social issues dominate the more likely they'll get a bit antsy, I would guess. There was a massive desire for America to accept less immigrants as well as economic concerns, to pretend there wasn't is ridiculous. This could be a work of genius by Trump, he could set this up as him v the protestors over the next couple of years, then in the minds of the average Joe the Democrats could end up being viewed as similar to Corbyn's Labour over here, a hard left street movement who are massively pro-refugee/Muslim/anti anything West/identity politics obsessives, if he can do that it wouldn't matter what happened between now and 2020, he'll be winning again whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 1 hour ago, Darkon84 said: I can't believe Iraq are planning halting admission to Americans too. How dare they! I wonder if it will be reported as a ban on Christians? I also can't seem to see anyone really saying much over the Arab leagues boycott of Israel and banned Jewish passport holders from travelling to any of their countries...which actually is based on religion. I think the point is that we doing exist this kind of behaviour from the "good guys", and if there is there's certainly no cause for any kind of moral high ground on the matter. You could make the argument that every nation does in fact do it and should do something like it, but all that proves is that distrust dominates and realpolitik sucks. 52 minutes ago, Strokes said: https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ Yeah. Isn't there a difference between drafting legislation and actually putting into practice, though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: There was a massive desire for America to accept less immigrants as well as economic concerns, to pretend there wasn't is ridiculous. This could be a work of genius by Trump, he could set this up as him v the protestors over the next couple of years, then in the minds of the average Joe the Democrats could end up being viewed as similar to Corbyn's Labour over here, a hard left street movement who are massively pro-refugee/Muslim/anti anything West/identity politics obsessives, if he can do that it wouldn't matter what happened between now and 2020, he'll be winning again whatever. Oh, so now it WAS about identity politics? Goodness me, I find it so hard to keep up and know if it was one or the other, given how often it keeps changing. Why would a guy out in the rust belt vote for Trump in four years time when he's still struggling for work and whoever the Dem candidate is promises it to him as Trump did (and failed), regardless of how many people he sees walking down the streets of the various cities holding signs at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 19 minutes ago, MattP said: You obviously saw different pictures to me, I saw signs saying "no one is illegal" and "end capitalism" - hardly the staple of the average folk. They can find it abhorrent if they want (although that still doesn't explain the silence from them when Obama did it) but it's what he was elected on, in fact his election promise was far stronger than this. Tonight we have a protest against this in Westminster and Ed Miliband is speaking at it, Ed fcuking Miliband. The man who was at the forefront of calling for the bombing of Libya in 2011 which turned out to be a total disaster, a man will lecture Trump about Muslim refugees after playing a huge role in destroying a Muslim country and making millions refugees, it's unbelivable. The crowd should lynch him. Well of course the snappers are going to focus in on anyone with a sign, it's attention grabbing. The same way cameras focus in on twats in fox onesies in our away ends - hardly makes them representative does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 That fox onesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: Oh, so now it WAS about identity politics? Goodness me, I find it so hard to keep up and know if it was one or the other, given how often it keeps changing. Why would a guy out in the rust belt vote for Trump in four years time when he's still struggling for work and whoever the Dem candidate is promises it to him as Trump did (and failed), regardless of how many people he sees walking down the streets of the various cities holding signs at the time? It doesn't change at all, Immigration was one of the reasons why Trump has got elected, that's beyond doubt, I've not met any political pundit who claims otherwise. You are getting confused, just because you either take on on or ignore identitiy politics isn't the reason for electoral success or failure, it's how you appraoch that, when I say the left is losing because of identity politics, it's not saying politics isn't about identitiy politics, it's the approach the left take to identity politics, at the minute the left can't win with it, the right can, because public support in most Western countries is of an anti globalisation/immigration persussion at the minute. Until your side puts a much effort in getting a man into work as they do in getting them into a women's toilet then they won't be winning shit in working class places the rust belt, if Trump can nail that divide they will still vote for him, in the same way here the Leave vote has nailed a lot of Northern voters away from the Labour party for the foreseeable future, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 This is quite a watch from 22 years, Democrat Bill Clinton on illegal immigration, welfare and deportations. He got a standing ovation for this as well, how times change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 12 minutes ago, MattP said: It doesn't change at all, Immigration was one of the reasons why Trump has got elected, that's beyond doubt, I've not met any political pundit who claims otherwise. You are getting confused, just because you either take on on or ignore identitiy politics isn't the reason for electoral success or failure, it's how you appraoch that, when I say the left is losing because of identity politics, it's not saying politics isn't about identitiy politics, it's the approach the left take to identity politics, at the minute the left can't win with it, the right can, because public support in most Western countries is of an anti globalisation/immigration persussion at the minute. Until your side puts a much effort in getting a man into work as they do in getting them into a women's toilet then they won't be winning shit in working class places the rust belt, if Trump can nail that divide they will still vote for him, in the same way here the Leave vote has nailed a lot of Northern voters away from the Labour party for the foreseeable future, There's something in people's attitudes hardening, but being told that Trump won was definitely because of rust belt workers being promised jobs rather than them being racist and then being told a bit later that "oh, they wanted less immigration too" is, yes, a bit inconsistent and confusing. If Trump can't keep his promises in those areas specifically regarding work, he may have a hard time in four years regardless of other factors. You seem confident he can deliver and so nail that divide, though. Guess we'll find out. (TBH the environmental bullshit he's looking to pull still worries me more than anything else.) This is another topic, but I'm interested in your take: what do you make of Steve Bannon being involved in the security Council? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 7 minutes ago, MattP said: This is quite a watch from 22 years, Democrat Bill Clinton on illegal immigration, welfare and deportations. He got a standing ovation for this as well, how times change. Not sure of your point here, I doubt hardly anyone disagrees on the downsides of mass ILLEGAL immigration. That's not really why people have lambasted trump, his ideas have a base point that most people follow. I think I read that Obama deported record numbers. What he tends to do, is take the idea and turn it up to 11... potentially catching lots of innocent people in the net at the same time. Take the ban on people from those muslim countries.... countries that have never even had a citizen commit a terrorist crime in America. It makes no sense to just do them and not others if you really are worried about the terrorists. Then with what he's doing you catch in that people who have lived and worked their for years legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 5 minutes ago, leicsmac said: (TBH the environmental bullshit he's looking to pull still worries me more than anything else.) This is another topic, but I'm interested in your take: what do you make of Steve Bannon being involved in the security Council? Very bizarre, from what I understand his national security experience consists of a graduate degree and seven years in the Navy. I think he'll be delighted this has gone under the radar while we all talking about the so called "Muslim Ban" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 37 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Oh, so now it WAS about identity politics? Goodness me, I find it so hard to keep up and know if it was one or the other, given how often it keeps changing. Yeah you have to love the "white working class are sick of lefties and immigrants and identity politics" type lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 Just now, bovril said: Yeah you have to love the "white working class are sick of lefties and immigrants and identity politics" type lines. We do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the fox Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 1 hour ago, Darkon84 said: I can't believe Iraq are planning halting admission to Americans too. How dare they! I wonder if it will be reported as a ban on Christians? I also can't seem to see anyone really saying much over the Arab leagues boycott of Israel and banned Jewish passport holders from travelling to any of their countries...which actually is based on religion. Banned Israelis from entering. Very deferent. It is not a religious thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 13 minutes ago, MattP said: Very bizarre, from what I understand his national security experience consists of a graduate degree and seven years in the Navy. I think he'll be delighted this has gone under the radar while we all talking about the so called "Muslim Ban" TBH I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was part of the idea. At the risk of being judgmental, the man is a powermongering sociopathic cockroach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 19 minutes ago, the fox said: Banned Israelis from entering. Very deferent. It is not a religious thing Correct, I meant to put Israeli passport holders, not Jewish. However, considering the roots of the boycotts were originally against Palestinian Jewish & Jewish businesses before the creation of Israel, it seems it was, and has just expanded to become Israel itself. I appreciate it's a complicated history though, and probably is a good discussion for another time or thread, without derailing this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the fox Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Darkon84 said: Correct, I meant to put Israeli passport holders, not Jewish. However, considering the roots of the boycotts were originally against Palestinian Jewish & Jewish businesses before the creation of Israel, it seems it was, and has just expanded to become Israel itself. I appreciate it's a complicated history though, and probably is a good discussion for another time or thread, without derailing this one. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 24 minutes ago, the fox said: Banned Israelis from entering. Very deferent. It is not a religious thing If you ask Trump neither is this, if it is a Muslim ban it's a pretty crap once given 90% of them can still go to the US and he missed the most populous Islamic nations of the list. I might turn up at the protest tonight with this sign from one of our closest allies...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the fox Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 5 minutes ago, MattP said: If you ask Trump neither is this, if it is a Muslim ban it's a pretty crap once given 90% of them can still go to the US and he missed the most populous Islamic nations of the list. I might turn up at the protest tonight with this sign from one of our closest allies...... You do understand that it has a sign with "makkha" written over it, it is a sacred religious place.so, I think you can understand that a little It doesn't say "no Christians" or "no Jews".. Look at it like those "workers only" "family members only". Signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the fox Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 4 minutes ago, MattP said: If you ask Trump neither is this, if it is a Muslim ban it's a pretty crap once given 90% of them can still go to the US and he missed the most populous Islamic nations of the list. I might turn up at the protest tonight with this sign from one of our closest allies...... It is your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 4 minutes ago, the fox said: You do understand that it has a sign with "makkha" written over it, it is a sacred religious place.so, I think you can understand that a little Yes I do understand that. I think whilst these divisions exist anywhere on the planet we'll never come to terms with our differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the fox Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: Yes I do understand that. I think whilst these divisions exist anywhere on the planet we'll never come to terms with our differences. I actually disgree with that a little. I believe that people from deferent religions and backgrounds can co-exist if they can exterminate the extremists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 30 January 2017 Share Posted 30 January 2017 What right do we have to tell Trump what laws he can and cannot pass affecting America? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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