President Trump & the USA

[David Guiza]

53 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

So you would be happy with a nice hotel and a nice meal but to forgo certain traditions because you dont like Trump?

Dont really see it. Are people really bothered by Trump getting that reception? Does it matter? Should we disrupt the relationship between the 2 countries because of political feelings?

 

Mayor of London calling Trump a nazi is much weirder than giving Trump a good reception

 

A lot of people dislike Trump based on very little. Youtube has plenty of clips of protestors who when questioned cant give a half reasonable answer as to why they hate him. So yes, its mostly PC bollocks. Even people on here who are fairly clued up politically fail to make a legitimate case against him when compared to other presidents

 

Trump is well supported in the US so disagreements about his policies are disagreememts with large portions of the American public. So to dismiss him on that basis is to dismiss them

 

 

As I said, I'm sure there are plenty of buildings in this fine country that are not Buckingham Palace but a little classier than Travelodge. There are also many more important people to spend time with than the Queen, in terms of the current political mess we're in, surely? Where do you draw the line with keeping people happy. We benefit greatly for Saudi money, do we show any old human rights abusing nation around Buck Palace and let them have a chin wag with Queeny providing they keep lining our pockets?  And no I am not saying that Trump is in that category, I merely question how much is too much flattery?

 

I gave a legitimate claim against him, many have. If we are citing YouTube clips as a legitimate evidence for our opinions then we are struggling, eh? There were plenty of clips on the news after his election, and since, of his supporters showing themselves to be utter morons too, but I don't think that means any more than your YouTube crap does it? 

 

Tony Blair, Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron, John Major, Vladimir Putin and Hitler were all well supported at some time, I don't really see your point. People protested when George Bush came in 2003 also, he was also popular with large portions of the American public too. I don't think anybody with any sense wants to cut ties with the US on the basis that they have a few issues with Trump, do they?

Edited 4 June 2019 by David Guiza

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

2 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

As I said, I'm sure there are plenty of buildings in this fine country that are not Buckingham Palace but a little classier than Travelodge. There are also many more important people to spend time with than the Queen, in terms of the current political mess we're in, surely? Where do you draw the line with keeping people happy. We benefit greatly for Saudi money, do we show any old human rights abusing nation around Buck Palace and let them have a chin wag with Queeny providing they keep lining our pockets?  And no I am not saying that Trump is in that category, I merely question how much is too much flattery?

 

I gave a legitimate claim against him, many have. If we are citing YouTube clips as a legitimate evidence for our opinions then we are struggling, eh? There were plenty of clips on the news after his election, and since, of his supporters showing themselves to be utter morons too, but I don't think that means any more than your YouTube crap does it? 

 

Tony Blair, Margret Thatcher, David Cameron, John Major, Vladimir Putin and Hitler were all well supported at some time, I don't really see your point. People protested when George Bush came in 2003 also, he was also popular with large portions of the American public too. I don't think anybody with any sense wants to cut ties with the US on the basis that they have a few issues with Trump, do they?

Maybe the Queen and the people organising this stuff think it would be good to show some unity between the 2 countries? Idk, it doesnt seem like an issue to me. 

Yt reference is about the people protesting specifically. Thats where i see them interviewed. Where else should i look for their opinions?

 

Khan may as well have quoted Titania Mcgrath, his statement was so SJW. And he isnt some yt moron. We have high up politicians spouting substanceless crap, thats a terrible sign

 

People protested Bush for the Iraq war no?

Is that list of politicians supposed to be a category or just a random list?

 

The thing with Trump is it seems very much based on "who he is", on the type of person he is. Nothing wrong with a few protesting in futility as they always do, but getting the aggressive support of Kahn and Corbyn is another matter. 

 

Of course nobody wants to cut ties. May and the Queen will act like civilised people and do the correct things and the other knobs can go and behave like they say Trump behaves to prove some point

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

40 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

 

Mayor of London calling Trump a nazi is much weirder than giving Trump a good reception

 

So yes, its mostly PC bollocks. Even people on here who are fairly clued up politically fail to make a legitimate case against him when compared to other presidents

 

 

Here's what Sadiq Khan wrote about Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

 

He didn't "weirdly call him a Nazi", unless you have a different source for your claim?

 

He provided a well-argued case for comparing certain current political leaders, including Trump, to Far Right leaders of the 20th Century.

It is a case that he supports with multiple examples of Trump's policies and rhetoric. I'd go so far as to say that Khan succeeds in making "a legitimate case" against him

 

Just in case you or anyone else is interested in arguing their case based on the truth, rather than distortion.....

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Here's what Sadiq Khan wrote about Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

 

He didn't "weirdly call him a Nazi", unless you have a different source for your claim?

 

He provided a well-argued case for comparing certain current political leaders, including Trump, to Far Right leaders of the 20th Century.

It is a case that he supports with multiple examples of Trump's policies and rhetoric. I'd go so far as to say that Khan succeeds in making "a legitimate case" against him

 

Just in case you or anyone else is interested in arguing their case based on the truth, rather than distortion.....

Why did you use quotation marks and then re word what i said if you're so interested in accuracy?

 

And if you actually read that article you will see the strong inference there. Comparing him to Kim Jong and Putin and "European dictators of the 30s and 40s" .  Who could those dictators be I wonder...

 

Kahn says Trump is an example of the growing threat of the far right. He bangs on about the far right through the whole thing and says we should stand up to power, and stand up to Trump. That isnt distortion on my part

 

And that article is far from a "well-argued case", imo. Trump is not far right, although thats another argument i suppose

If Trump is far right we need a new name for the far right

Edited 4 June 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[Guest SO1]

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Is there? What difference?

 

So we should be civil but not smile at him? No small talk? No pleasantries because he isnt PC?

 

Who is treating him like a prince? 

He is the president of the US, voted in by the citizens. He is their representative and in a way how we treat him is how we treat them

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/do-unto-others-as-you-would-have-them-do-unto-you Thank you

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

“We must love each other, show affection for each other, and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry, and violence,” Trump said in Washington. “We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty that bring us together as Americans. Racism is evil. Those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans. We are a nation founded on the truth that all of us are created equal. We are equal in the eyes of our creator. We are equal under the law. We are equal under our Constitution. Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry, strike at the very core of America.”

 

@Alf Bentley Kahn cites Trump's Charlottesville comments as his well argued evidence, as you say, its his first point.  above is another quote from Trump after the incident

 

i'm not saying Trump is anything, but if he was really far right and wanted people like that to support him would he say such a thing as the above quote?

Edited 4 June 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[David Guiza]

15 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Maybe the Queen and the people organising this stuff think it would be good to show some unity between the 2 countries? Idk, it doesnt seem like an issue to me. 

Yt reference is about the people protesting specifically. Thats where i see them interviewed. Where else should i look for their opinions?

 

Khan may as well have quoted Titania Mcgrath, his statement was so SJW. And he isnt some yt moron. We have high up politicians spouting substanceless crap, thats a terrible sign

 

People protested Bush for the Iraq war no?

Is that list of politicians supposed to be a category or just a random list?

 

The thing with Trump is it seems very much based on "who he is", on the type of person he is. Nothing wrong with a few protesting in futility as they always do, but getting the aggressive support of Kahn and Corbyn is another matter. 

 

Of course nobody wants to cut ties. May and the Queen will act like civilised people and do the correct things and the other knobs can go and behave like they say Trump behaves to prove some point

 

 

Of course that's the reason, everybody knows that people who back Trump will lap up seeing him dressed like a bloated penguin with the Queen. That doesn't make it any easier to swallow for those who don't like the man or what he represents, however. Imagine the hard line Brexiteers reaction if this were Juncker and not Trump, and all of this was being used as a way to keep the EU sweet. The DM would combust.  

 

You know full well that there are a long list of videos on YouTube with the specific aim of making one side of any argument look ridiculous. There are countless number of pro Yaxley Lennon ones for example whereby he's made to look like some intelligent martyr by some do-gooding simpletons who can't actually give specifics examples of his lunacy, but that doesn't mean that there are countless sources in opposition of that. I wouldn't actively protest his visit, my only 'beef' is the manner of the visit, but I'm sure there are plenty of reasonable and intelligent people at the protest who could cite numerous legitimate reasons to resent his visit.

 

I agree that the protests shouldn't be about him as a person, they should be about what he represents as both are deplorable at times. To be honest I think the fact that he is such a 'marmite' (I hate that term) character can, at times, benefit him. Similar to Boris in some respects, he gets away with some things that your average politician wouldn't because he's so bizarre that it gets to a point where you shake your head and move on. If May, Corbyn or whomever had done or said half the things that he has in the past few years alone there would be public uproar, but he will continue to get away with it because nothing seemingly sticks to him as the next day he's tweeted something mental and it's forgotten about. 

 

[Buce]

42 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Why did you use quotation marks and then re word what i said if you're so interested in accuracy?

 

And if you actually read that article you will see the strong inference there. Comparing him to Kim Jong and Putin and "European dictators of the 30s and 40s" .  Who could those dictators be I wonder...

 

Kahn says Trump is an example of the growing threat of the far right. He bangs on about the far right through the whole thing and says we should stand up to power, and stand up to Trump. That isnt distortion on my part

 

And that article is far from a "well-argued case", imo. Trump is not far right, although thats another argument i suppose

If Trump is far right we need a new name for the far right

 

You mean besides Hitler?

 

Mussolini and Franco spring to mind. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

8 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Of course that's the reason, everybody knows that people who back Trump will lap up seeing him dressed like a bloated penguin with the Queen. That doesn't make it any easier to swallow for those who don't like the man or what he represents, however. Imagine the hard line Brexiteers reaction if this were Juncker and not Trump, and all of this was being used as a way to keep the EU sweet. The DM would combust.  

 

You know full well that there are a long list of videos on YouTube with the specific aim of making one side of any argument look ridiculous. There are countless number of pro Yaxley Lennon ones for example whereby he's made to look like some intelligent martyr by some do-gooding simpletons who can't actually give specifics examples of his lunacy, but that doesn't mean that there are countless sources in opposition of that. I wouldn't actively protest his visit, my only 'beef' is the manner of the visit, but I'm sure there are plenty of reasonable and intelligent people at the protest who could cite numerous legitimate reasons to resent his visit.

 

I agree that the protests shouldn't be about him as a person, they should be about what he represents as both are deplorable at times. To be honest I think the fact that he is such a 'marmite' (I hate that term) character can, at times, benefit him. Similar to Boris in some respects, he gets away with some things that your average politician wouldn't because he's so bizarre that it gets to a point where you shake your head and move on. If May, Corbyn or whomever had done or said half the things that he has in the past few years alone there would be public uproar, but he will continue to get away with it because nothing seemingly sticks to him as the next day he's tweeted something mental and it's forgotten about. 

 

I agree sometimes the man is deplorable. I think thats precisely his appeal for some people and that is a response to PC culture

 

Im not sure he represents to his supporters what his detractors say he represents. Im not from America though and could be wrong about that, i only know media articles and the words of pundits

 

I just dont think he is a racist far right guy and its a dead end argument. See below

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You mean besides Hitler?

 

Mussolini and Franco spring to mind. 

Yes.... those are the ones. Those are fascists. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Trump. The 4 horsemen

[Buce]

Just now, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I agree sometimes the man is deplorable. I think thats precisely his appeal for some people and that is a response to PC culture

 

Im not sure he represents to his supporters what his detractors say he represents. Im not from America though and could be wrong about that, i only know media articles and the words of pundits

 

I just dont think he is a racist far right guy and its a dead end argument. See below

Yes.... those are the ones. Those are fascists. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Trump. The 4 horsemen

 

According to you he called him a Nazi, not a fascist. 

 

You know, in the interest of accuracy. 

[Kopfkino]

16 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Of course that's the reason, everybody knows that people who back Trump will lap up seeing him dressed like a bloated penguin with the Queen. That doesn't make it any easier to swallow for those who don't like the man or what he represents, however. Imagine the hard line Brexiteers reaction if this were Juncker and not Trump, and all of this was being used as a way to keep the EU sweet. The DM would combust.  

 

Well yeah it'd be a bit weird to extend an invitation for a state visit to someone that isn't a head of state. 

 

A state visit being the ultimate expression of good diplomatic relations between two countries. In this case, our strongest ally, with whom our relationship has weakened since the last state visit, and to coincide with a ceremony for a key anniversary of one of our greatest achievements together. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

According to you he called him a Nazi, not a fascist. 

 

You know, in the interest of accuracy. 

In the interest of pedantry you mean

 

I think most people associate 30s and 40s European fascism with the Nazis tbh

Edited 4 June 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[leicsmac]

It seems like there are a few complaints here about Trump being targetted as a person, rather than the policies of his administration.

 

That's fair enough, how about a list of policies and events under his administration that he is directly or indirectly responsible for that might be objectionable:

 

- At least four states forwarding or passing extreme anti-abortion legislation in a direct future attack on Roe v Wade.

- Hamstringing the EPA and so grossly reducing oversight on responsibility for pollution events in the US

- Failing to rein in consistent far-right attacks in various places across the US (including reducing the budget of agencies designed to track and apprehend them)

- Pulling out of the Paris climate agreement: though the agreement itself is flawed, the gesture is symbolic of the attitude towards climate change, as backed by policy involving increased support for oil and gas companies

- Failure to even begin to build his "wall", a cornerstone of his election campaign

- Failure to modify the healthcare system either in the way he wished for or in a way that would mean more people would get better access to affordable healthcare

- Forwarding legislation that would allow great swathes of National Parks to be sold for "development" (read: strip-mining)

 

....and that is by no means an exhaustive list.

 

FWIW I don't think that Trump himself is even a very bad person - however, his election has acted as an enabler for those who are and they are taking full advantage in order to reassert power in a way they like.

 

Oh, and also at this point I'll repeat what was said yesterday, as well as the last time he visited the UK:

 

23 hours ago, leicsmac said:

The office of the President deserves respect, as befits a longtime ally - though IMO it's a judgement on the state of the world that most would still choose them over the other major players, as you say.

 

The current administration occupying it deserve none.

 

I hope that people can parse the difference between the two and talk about the two accordingly.

 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Unless Sadiq Khan wrote more than one article, he did NOT call Trump a fascist. Here's the article: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

 

That's a very good article, in which Khan justifies his views in detail. He links Trump to Orban, LePen, Salvini & co as the "Far Right" - but cites Trump's policies & actions to justify doing so.

As far as I can see, he uses the word "fascist" once, alluding to those politicians, including Trump, using "the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century"......er, "Breaking Point" poster? "Mexican immigrants are criminals & rapists" (I paraphrase)? Separation of immigrant children from their parents? Blanket travel bans on half a dozen predominantly Muslim countries?

 

It's also disingenuous to suggest that Khan "started all this off". His criticism of the visit probably triggered Trump's tweet, but there's a longer history: 

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-06-03/how-long-has-the-feud-between-donald-trump-and-sadiq-khan-been-running/

 

- 2016: Trump called for a blanket ban on Muslim immigration into the USA. Khan disagreed. Trump subsequently said that he'd make an exception for him & Khan said he didn't want to be an exception.

- 2017: In the immediate wake of the London Bridge terrorist attacks, Trump openly disagreed with Khan, implying that the London public should be alarmed

- 2018: After the terror attacks and after Khan had declined to ban the Trump blimp (a free speech issue), Trump publicly criticised him for doing a terrible job and a bad job on crime....

This was the article I had read -https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-like-20th-century-fascist-says-sadiq-khan

To be honest I think some of the language borders on hysterical, people may not like Salvini but I really don't see him as "far-right" - Orban probably gets closer to that but you can understand the people of Hungary showing some trepidation to recent European Union policy given what happened to them at the hands of the Ottoman empire.

No problem at all with him complaining about things like children being seperated from parents etc - I just wish he had done it with all the US leaders, it just looks a bit cheap when you only complain about Trump doing it and not say a word when it's Obama.

Point taken though and I withdraw my comment of "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by calling Trump a fascist" to "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by likening Trump to a fascist"

[somebum]

Pathetic reaction to his visit. It's actually embarrassing 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

This was the article I had read -https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-like-20th-century-fascist-says-sadiq-khan

To be honest I think some of the language borders on hysterical, people may not like Salvini but I really don't see him as "far-right" - Orban probably gets closer to that but you can understand the people of Hungary showing some trepidation to recent European Union policy given what happened to them at the hands of the Ottoman empire.

No problem at all with him complaining about things like children being seperated from parents etc - I just wish he had done it with all the US leaders, it just looks a bit cheap when you only complain about Trump doing it and not say a word when it's Obama.

Point taken though and I withdraw my comment of "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by calling Trump a fascist" to "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by likening Trump to a fascist"

Can't say words about events that didn't happen:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-law-separate-families-passed-1997/

[MC Prussian]

20 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You mean besides Hitler?

 

Mussolini and Franco spring to mind. 

Don't forget Tito. And to an extent Salazar in Portugal, although the country was neutral during WWII.

[David Guiza]

40 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Well yeah it'd be a bit weird to extend an invitation for a state visit to someone that isn't a head of state. 

 

A state visit being the ultimate expression of good diplomatic relations between two countries. In this case, our strongest ally, with whom our relationship has weakened since the last state visit, and to coincide with a ceremony for a key anniversary of one of our greatest achievements together. 

I was merely making a point that this is also a thinly veiled exhibition to get back into the good books of the US as we could potentially be in a more desperate need than we have been for decades, and in an alternate world we could be equally reliant on Juncker for whatever reason. It would equally cringe-worthy to see anyone get that treatment by virtue of a you pat my back i'll pat yours scenario. Ultimately we have rolled out the red carpet and bowed to far more controversial people than Trump on state visits like Mugabe, Hirohito, Putin, King Abdullah and Xi Jinping for example, and in reality the protests look ridiculous by comparison.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the visit and the reasoning behind it, my problem is more so with the archaic and ars* licking nature of it all; with all the unnecessary factors to it. I love history and tradition, but It's 2019 are we are rolling out a 93 year old woman with no actual power or say on anything because that's what we've always done, historically. We also know that's what the Americans and alike want to see, I totally get that, but I still find it bizarre and cringe inducing. The same can be said for behaviour in the Commons and Lords etc. 

 

Edited 4 June 2019 by David Guiza

[Buce]

31 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

In the interest of pedantry you mean

 

I think most people associate 30s and 40s European fascism with the Nazis tbh

 

What 'most people' think is irrelevant when you are quoting someone.

 

So, accuracy, not pedantry.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

Just now, Buce said:

 

What 'most people' think is irrelevant when you are quoting someone.

 

So, accuracy, not pedantry.

Gosh, boring.

 

Ok, sorry, I give up. Trump is like a fascist.  Which is not the same as saying he is a Nazi.  The former statement is completely correct and not comparable to the latter in any way whatsoever and I wouldnt forgive anyone who conflated the two

[Foxin_Mad]

31 minutes ago, MattP said:

This was the article I had read -https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-like-20th-century-fascist-says-sadiq-khan

To be honest I think some of the language borders on hysterical, people may not like Salvini but I really don't see him as "far-right" - Orban probably gets closer to that but you can understand the people of Hungary showing some trepidation to recent European Union policy given what happened to them at the hands of the Ottoman empire.

No problem at all with him complaining about things like children being seperated from parents etc - I just wish he had done it with all the US leaders, it just looks a bit cheap when you only complain about Trump doing it and not say a word when it's Obama.

Point taken though and I withdraw my comment of "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by calling Trump a fascist" to "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by likening Trump to a fascist"

Was Hitler really far-right either? He was in the National Socialist German Workers' Party, it was anti-capaitalist, anti-semetic with a nasty twist.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Was Hitler really far-right either? He was in the National Socialist German Workers' Party, it was anti-capaitalist, anti-semetic with a nasty twist.

Probably isn't the best place for this discussion, but the Nazis loved big business as long as they didn't upset what they were trying to do (and mostly supported it), they didn't go on some massive state appropriation of private business assets and who, exactly was their ideological greatest opponents and the one they committed by far the most resources to exterminating? The Communist USSR.

 

You don't look to kill, brutalise and seek to exterminate people you agree with ideologically, unless I'm missing something. So, the answer to your question is yes.

[Guest MattP]

That press conference was great, often forget how funny Trump is, fantastic speaker as well in such a different way.

[Guest MattP]

Also claimed Jeremy Corbyn asked for a meeting and it was turned down.

So he boycotts the banquet with Donald Trump and then asks for a meeting with him

This man is absolutely ridiculous.

[Foxin_Mad]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

 

You don't look to kill, brutalise and seek to exterminate people you agree with ideologically, unless I'm missing something. So, the answer to your question is yes.

Haven't there been plenty on the supposed 'far-left' who have done that too? Communist Russia, China, for example (Stalin/Mao) in more recent time Venezuela (Maduro). 

 

I much prefer to call them mindless idiots, I don't think anyone that mindlessly kills is of a specific political agenda. 'Most' people running countries genuinely want the best, they just disagree on how to get there. 

 

I think Trump for all his faults genuinely wants the best for America and American people, far better to have him as an Allie than an enemy that is for sure. 

Edited 4 June 2019 by Foxin_Mad