President Trump & the USA

[RoboFox]

Kahn?

 

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, lestajigs said:

Dosser wants to get a job 

 

' The teenager is the founder of Born Eco, a website which connects shoppers with eco-friendly traders.'

 

Maybe you should have read the article.

Edited 3 June 2019 by Buce

[lestajigs]

11 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

' The teenager is the founder of Born Eco, a website which connects shoppers with eco-friendly traders.'

 

Maybe you should have read the article.

How interesting 

[bovril]

17 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

 

I mean, John Cleese got in a proper shitstorm the other day for suggesting on Twitter that London is no longer "English". Was/is he wrong?

 

 

More English people living in London than many other major cities combined, so yes. 

[MC Prussian]

6 minutes ago, bovril said:

More English people living in London than many other major cities combined, so yes. 

I'll call your spin a bluff.

[bovril]

3 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

I'll call your spin a bluff.

How is it spin? How is London not an English city when it's the largest city in England, millions of English people live there, and it's the heart of English art, culture, history etc?

[AKCJ]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

How is it spin? How is London not an English city when it's the largest city in England, millions of English people live there, and it's the heart of English art, culture, history etc?

London has the second-highest foreign born population of any City in the world.

[bovril]

27 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

London has the second-highest foreign born population of any City in the world.

I know, I just don't think that makes it 'not English'. I am reminded I'm in England much more in London than in a non-descript small town in the provinces, which could be anywhere.

Edited 3 June 2019 by bovril

[Jon the Hat]

On 02/06/2019 at 11:01, The Fox Covert said:

In this increasingly topsy-turvy political landscape Corbyn has unexpectedly emerged as the patriot.

He has attacked Trump's endorsement of Boris Johnson as an 'entirely unacceptable interference' in British politics. Trump has gone on to urge the British government to go for no deal Brexit and invite Farage to assist with the negotiations. 

Trump is visiting the UK on an official state visit next week. I don't suppose she will do it, but I do think that Theresa May should warn Trump to keep his nose out of our affairs. 

For myself I would probably go much further and tell Trump to his face to back off otherwise the state visit does not happen.

Maybe I am an old-left political dinosaur but interference in the internal affairs of another country just cannot be tolerated.

Again, this won't happen but if Corbyn sets out to root out anti-semitism in his own party and accepts that the Good Friday agreement is the definitive statement on Irish sovereignty and it is up to the Irish on both sides of the border to decide who governs their affairs I might be a lot less lukewarm about supporting a party I have always voted for.

Where were you when Obama was supporting Cameron in opposing BREXIT?

 

It wont do Boris any more good than it did Cameron. 

[Jon the Hat]

London is a great World City.  It also contains vast numbers of English people who can't afford to eat

[Jon the Hat]

Great to see the President of our greatest ally in the UK on the 75th Anniversary of D Day.  Dislike America all you want; I would still choose them over any other Superpower options on the table.  Dislike Trump all you want, but he is the head of state of a the USA, and that office deserves our respect.  

[MC Prussian]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

How is it spin? How is London not an English city when it's the largest city in England, millions of English people live there, and it's the heart of English art, culture, history etc?

Depends on how you define London:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/london-population/

 

Cleese was talking about the city of London specifically, if I'm not mistaken. And he wasn't talking about the population per se as far as I can tell, but the perception/the vibe of the city as no longer being "English".

[bovril]

Just now, MC Prussian said:

Depends on how you define London:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/london-population/

 

Cleese was talking about the city of London specifically, if I'm not mistaken. And he wasn't talking about the population per se as far as I can tell, but the perception/the vibe of the city as no longer being "English".

If he perceives it as such then fair do's. He's been around longer than me. As I wrote above, I feel like it's more English than most small towns in England, but it's only that - a feeling.

[MC Prussian]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

If he perceives it as such then fair do's. He's been around longer than me. As I wrote above, I feel like it's more English than most small towns in England, but it's only that - a feeling.

We're digressing from the main topic here, but I'll just add that I find the immediate knee-jerk reaction with allegations of homophobia or racism aimed at Cleese very telling of today's Social Media outrage culture.

It's staggering, really.

 

Offended by words is today's biggest threat to one's life, next thing you know they'll call the Met's special Social Media operations team to get him arrested.

[Buce]

16 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Depends on how you define London:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/london-population/

 

Cleese was talking about the city of London specifically, if I'm not mistaken.

1

 

I think you are very much mistaken - the City of London is approximately one square mile, with a population of 7,375 (2011 census); it would be nonsensical to speak of 'London' if you meant the CoL.

 

16 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

 

And he wasn't talking about the population per se as far as I can tell, but the perception/the vibe of the city as no longer being "English".

 

I think he was speaking of both, tbh, and whether he is right or not depends on how one defines Englishness. If one defines it as being born in England, his perception is incorrect as only 37% were born outside of the UK.

 

If, as I suspect, he defines Englishness as being white of Anglo-Saxon heritage and a love of cricket and cream teas, then he may well be right. Whether that makes him a racist or not is open to debate.

[Jattdogg]

59 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Great to see the President of our greatest ally in the UK on the 75th Anniversary of D Day.  Dislike America all you want; I would still choose them over any other Superpower options on the table.  Dislike Trump all you want, but he is the head of state of a the USA, and that office deserves our respect.  

He is a cvnt of the highest order and a disgrace to any office (president, CEO, husband).  I have 0 respect for him but also feel the way about many world leaders. We have no choice but to accept he was elected by a minority of americans and deal with it though. Is what it is

Heck, trudeau over here is a complete knob. But if you love america that much please take the minority who voted for them and live in lala land

[Gamble92]

50 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I think you are very much mistaken - the City of London is approximately one square mile, with a population of 7,375 (2011 census); it would be nonsensical to speak of 'London' if you meant the CoL.

 

 

I think he was speaking of both, tbh, and whether he is right or not depends on how one defines Englishness. If one defines it as being born in England, his perception is incorrect as only 37% were born outside of the UK.

 

If, as I suspect, he defines Englishness as being white of Anglo-Saxon heritage and a love of cricket and cream teas, then he may well be right. Whether that makes him a racist or not is open to debate.

This is completely one extreme to the other though isnt it. I dont doubt there's some truth in you implying he is just missing the days of London being mostly white and there is am obvious element of racism in that.

 

But just to belittle anyone who raises issues like this as wanting everyone to be "eating cream teas and enjoying cricket" is exactly why we are left with people feeling their only options are to vote for far right figures like Farage and Trump. The middle ground debate is completely extinguished. These people keep any aggreivances they have to themselves and then vote on mass at elections and then we are all shocked by the results. 

 

In reality there has been a huge cultural change in London and indeed our own city of Leicester. Has it been responsible to let there be quite such a change, without much in the way of genuine integration? Thats for people to make their own minds up. It's great for the economy. But we all have to live with each other and that kind of seems to have been a point politicians miss.

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Whilst the amount of mass shootings in the US is a sad state of affairs, it's important to point out that the US population has grown by 100 million in the past 40 years alone.

So, by sheer logic, the amount or tendency of mass shootings does increase alongside with it.

There's also much more media covering these incidents.

Guns have become more effective.

 

However, I think the way mass shootings are represented in the US media is rather sensationalist and superficial. Also, there are plenty of countries with a worse fatality record, you need to put it in relation to the total population:

https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/268167/global-ranking-of-gun-deaths-heres-where-south-africa-stands/

El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico (just), Afghanistan are worse off.

In general, Middle and South America, plus the Caribbean, deary me... these numbers.

 

For what it's worth, the situation in the US is special due to its long-existing gun culture based on the Second Amendment (in itself influenced by the 1689 British Bill of Rights, by the way), and the amount of people with mental problems not being diagnosed or treated accordingly. Treatments are usually very expensive.

 

The question I am asking myself is: Would banning firearms alleviate the problem? Wouldn't people intent on killing or harming others just opt for other weapons instead? You can argue the effectiveness (or rather lack thereof) of these alternative weapons in comparison to firearms, I just don't see that solving the more deeply-rooted issue, which is part of the US mentality.

It also raises the question of a potential booming black market.

Background checks need to be more extensive and thorough, it shouldn't be that easy to get a gun in the US - although for safety reasons, I can see why guns are needed. 78% of all gun sales are already based on a UBC, let's hope the US bring that number up past the 85 or even 90 percent mark sometimes soon.

....does the US, who consistently market themselves as the paragon, the OECD country of all OECD countries, really want to be counted among such exalted company as those you quote here when it comes to shootings?

 

However, I do agree with better background checking and that a ban wouldn't work simply because prohibition on a land mass the size of the US with that many guns still in circulation would be next to impossible, and there is a problem with mental healthcare (as well as all other healthcare) in the US that needs to be addressed - though those who advocate for the Second Amendment are hardly pushing for better healthcare reform in order to address the problem themselves, are they?

 

 

3 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Trump announced these plans back in 2016, I wonder how hard the Democrats fought against it... 

 

My main concern with this policy is the expansion of a bureaucratic apparatus, because this data collection needs serious man power.

 

Btw, there are similarly tough places to visit on a visa already:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/countries-difficult-visas-travel/403267/

 

I'll never forget my experience at the Russian embassy in Berlin. 70ies throwback time.

 

On a sidenote, aren't you still living in South Korea at the moment, one of the more restrictive and xenophobic countries when it comes to immigration? A bit like the Japanese see "foreigners", although you could say it's a generational and institutional question.

https://journal-neo.org/2018/08/02/has-the-problem-with-illegals-and-refugees-reached-south-korea/

I know he announced them then, I was heading over there at the time.

 

FWIW I have never had to give my email, phone number or any other social media information in order to gain a visa for Korea, and neither has anyone I know over here. There are certain problems with institutionalised and generational xenophobia over here (mandatory HIV testing of foreigners coming in being one, tied up in the courts right now), but even they wouldn't go as far as asking me for my social media stuff and thankfully such attitudes at the institutional and generational level seem to be getting lesser...which, sadly, seems to be the opposite of the US right now.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Great to see the President of our greatest ally in the UK on the 75th Anniversary of D Day.  Dislike America all you want; I would still choose them over any other Superpower options on the table.  Dislike Trump all you want, but he is the head of state of a the USA, and that office deserves our respect.  

 

The office of the President deserves respect, as befits a longtime ally - though IMO it's a judgement on the state of the world that most would still choose them over the other major players, as you say.

 

The current administration occupying it deserve none.

 

I hope that people can parse the difference between the two and talk about the two accordingly.

[Carl the Llama]

Re. John Cleese, he did go on to clarify what he meant (3 tweets embedded below, may need time to load):

I think there's enough in there for people of all political persuasions to find something they agree/disagree with.  For instance I disagree that knife crime is some non-English phenomenon.   It's shot up recently as a result of growing wealth inequality and diminished police budgets but using knives is a very English solution to the problem of arming oneself with something concealable (so cricket bats are out).  imo.

Edited 3 June 2019 by Carl the Llama

[Buce]

52 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

This is completely one extreme to the other though isnt it. I dont doubt there's some truth in you implying he is just missing the days of London being mostly white and there is am obvious element of racism in that.

 

But just to belittle anyone who raises issues like this as wanting everyone to be "eating cream teas and enjoying cricket" is exactly why we are left with people feeling their only options are to vote for far right figures like Farage and Trump. The middle ground debate is completely extinguished. These people keep any aggreivances they have to themselves and then vote on mass at elections and then we are all shocked by the results. 

 

In reality there has been a huge cultural change in London and indeed our own city of Leicester. Has it been responsible to let there be quite such a change, without much in the way of genuine integration? Thats for people to make their own minds up. It's great for the economy. But we all have to live with each other and that kind of seems to have been a point politicians miss.

 

I wasn’t belittling him at all - I merely used ‘cricket and cream teas’ as an example of the quintessential English pastimes that people of his age and social background associate with Englishness. Neither did I say or imply he is a racist because of that. 

[MC Prussian]

19 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Re. John Cleese, he did go on to clarify what he meant (3 tweets embedded below, may need time to load):

I think there's enough in there for people of all political persuasions to find something they agree/disagree with.  For instance I disagree that knife crime is some non-English phenomenon.   It's shot up recently as a result of growing wealth inequality and diminished police budgets but using knives is a very English solution to the problem of arming oneself with something concealable (so cricket bats are out).  imo.

John Cleese did appear on iTV last October, explaining why he was leaving the UK for Nevis - mainly for weather reasons, the lack of proportional representation, the missing implementation of Leveson II, media corruption/bias and peace of mind (away from the British press).

 

He did not go into detail with regards to the tax situation in the Caribbean as opposed to London/the UK. Paying no personal income tax over there is surely a big plus. 

Edited 3 June 2019 by MC Prussian

[Gamble92]

50 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I wasn’t belittling him at all - I merely used ‘cricket and cream teas’ as an example of the quintessential English pastimes that people of his age and social background associate with Englishness. Neither did I say or imply he is a racist because of that. 

You said you believe he is implying its because there is less white anglosaxon people living there. Is that not racist if that's what hes implying? That London is less English because not as many white people live there IS racist. You dont have to be white to be English.

 

And your use of such a stereotype of English people isnt okay either. It wouldnt be okay if you said similar about Indian people so it isn't okay to patronise English people like that. It just creates the two extremes I was talking about and leaves no room for debate.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Gamble92 said:

You said you believe he is implying its because there is less white anglosaxon people living there. Is that not racist if that's what hes implying?

3

 

You tell me - I said it's open to debate, so debate it if you wish. 

 

1 minute ago, Gamble92 said:

 

 

You dont have to be white to be English.

1

 

I agree.

 

But there are those who would argue differently.

 

1 minute ago, Gamble92 said:

 

And your use of such a stereotype of English people isnt okay either.

 

I wasn't stereotyping English people - I was describing a certain kind of Englishman/woman whose existence is beyond dispute.

 

[Carl the Llama]

16 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

You said you believe he is implying its because there is less white anglosaxon people living there. Is that not racist if that's what hes implying? That London is less English because not as many white people live there IS racist. You dont have to be white to be English.

 

And your use of such a stereotype of English people isnt okay either. It wouldnt be okay if you said similar about Indian people so it isn't okay to patronise English people like that. It just creates the two extremes I was talking about and leaves no room for debate.

Associating cream teas and cricket with the idea of 'Englishness' isn't taboo. It's not racist/offensive to associate baguettes and pétanque with French culture, nor is there a problem with linking Ramen and Sumo Wrestling to the Japanese one; Curry and Cricket (again) for Indian culture; Hot Dogs and Baseball for the USA; etc. ad infinitum.  Stereotypes exist for a reason and they're not intrinsically bigoted if they're factual.  Citing them in pejorative terms, sure; using them to condescend, absolutely; rejecting the idea that a subject can do or think outside of these stereotypes, absolutely.  None of which is what's happened here, I don't think.

 

22 minutes ago, Buce said:

You tell me - I said it's open to debate, so debate it if you wish. 

Yeah it's pretty racist if Cleese's definition of English culture includes strict definitions of a person's physical traits and genetic ancestry as though a person with different coloured skin can't be a part of it.  I'm highly doubtful that's where he's coming from.

[Carl the Llama]

16 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

You said you believe he is implying its because there is less white anglosaxon people living there. Is that not racist if that's what hes implying? That London is less English because not as many white people live there IS racist. You dont have to be white to be English.

 

And your use of such a stereotype of English people isnt okay either. It wouldnt be okay if you said similar about Indian people so it isn't okay to patronise English people like that. It just creates the two extremes I was talking about and leaves no room for debate.

Associating cream teas and cricket with the idea of 'Englishness' isn't taboo. It's not racist/offensive to associate baguettes and pétanque with French culture, nor is there a problem with linking Ramen and Sumo Wrestling to the Japanese one; Curry and Cricket (again) for Indian culture; Hot Dogs and Baseball for the USA; etc. ad infinitum.  Stereotypes exist for a reason and they're not intrinsically bigoted if they're factual.  Citing them in pejorative terms, sure; using them to condescend, absolutely; rejecting the idea that a subject can do or think outside of these stereotypes, absolutely.  None of which is what's happened here, I don't think.

 

22 minutes ago, Buce said:

You tell me - I said it's open to debate, so debate it if you wish. 

Yeah it's pretty racist if Cleese's definition of English culture includes strict definitions of a person's physical traits and genetic ancestry as though a person with different coloured skin can't be a part of it.  I'm highly doubtful that's where he's coming from.