President Trump & the USA

[Tuna]

 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Haven't there been plenty on the supposed 'far-left' who have done that too? Communist Russia, China, for example (Stalin/Mao) in more recent time Venezuela (Maduro). 

 

I much prefer to call them mindless idiots, I don't think anyone that mindlessly kills is of a specific political agenda. 'Most' people running countries genuinely want the best, they just disagree on how to get there. 

 

I think Trump for all his faults genuinely wants the best for America and American people, far better to have him as an Allie than an enemy that is for sure. 

What, launched lightning invasions against other nations that (are claimed to) have similar ideological positions? Not so much, I don't think...the USSR, Communist China and Venezuela have tended to keep their brutality in house and against people they disagree with.

 

Trump wants the best for certain parts of the American people - most certainly not others. That's what the people who elected him and those that back him want as well, after all.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Why did you use quotation marks and then re word what i said if you're so interested in accuracy?

 

And if you actually read that article you will see the strong inference there. Comparing him to Kim Jong and Putin and "European dictators of the 30s and 40s" .  Who could those dictators be I wonder...

 

Kahn says Trump is an example of the growing threat of the far right. He bangs on about the far right through the whole thing and says we should stand up to power, and stand up to Trump. That isnt distortion on my part

 

And that article is far from a "well-argued case", imo. Trump is not far right, although thats another argument i suppose

If Trump is far right we need a new name for the far right

 

I used quotation marks to signal that I was using your words. I just changed the word order and converted an adjective into an adverb (weirder->weirdly). You did say, inaccurately, that Khan called him a Nazi. Admittedly, you made a comparison that I did not, but if you say something is "weirder", most people will understand that it is "weird". So, you are being pedantic - I quoted your expressed meaning, if not your precise words. Whereas your claim about Khan was gross distortion, if not fabrication.

 

By comparing Trump to Kim, Putin, LePen, Orban, Farage, European dictators of the 30s/40s & military juntas of 70s/80s, Khan clearly infers that Trump is dangerous and of the Far Right. But I don't think he even uses the word "Nazi", never mind inferring that people are Nazis - or calling them Nazis. I appreciate that some of the wilder, more brain-dead Corbynistas might call them all Nazis, but no balanced, thoughtful person would categorise Putin, Farage, LePen or Kim as Nazis - Far Right, maybe. As an aside, I got high marks for a uni essay arguing that General Franco wasn't a fascist, although he had fascists (the Falange) in his brutal, autocratic, anti-democratic, reactionary alliance. 

 

I agree with your third line, except that I see it as a well-argued, evidence-based case that Khan presents, not just banging on - and he says we should "speak out", not "stand up to" Trump (though I'm probably being pedantic myself now).

 

"Far Right" is a vague, subjective term, I admit. But here's a Wiki definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics#Definition

"Authoritarianism, anti-communism and nativism ["promoting the interests of native inhabitants against those of immigrants, including by supporting immigration restriction measures"]" sounds like Trump. Likewise, talk of "superior people" and "inferior people". The definition goes on to look at "right-wing populism", saying this is sometimes described as Far Right. Again, the definition for that - "laissez-faire capitalism, nationalism, ethnocentrism and anti-elitism" sounds close to Trump....

 

"Far Right" doesn't have to involve jackboots marching into Poland and extermination camps. Many would see separating and caging immigrant children as Far Right, likewise blanket travel bans on predominantly Muslim nations, implying that most Mexican immigrants are criminals, rapists and drug dealers, intervening in the domestic politics of other nations (recommending Farage as negotiator, inviting Gove for talks during a leadership contest), sacking anyone who disagrees with you etc.

 

 

51 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

“We must love each other, show affection for each other, and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry, and violence,” Trump said in Washington. “We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty that bring us together as Americans. Racism is evil. Those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans. We are a nation founded on the truth that all of us are created equal. We are equal in the eyes of our creator. We are equal under the law. We are equal under our Constitution. Those who spread violence in the name of bigotry, strike at the very core of America.”

 

@Alf Bentley Kahn cites Trump's Charlottesville comments as his well argued evidence, as you say, its his first point.  above is another quote from Trump after the incident

 

i'm not saying Trump is anything, but if he was really far right and wanted people like that to support him would he say such a thing as the above quote?

 

Apparently he made those comments 2 days after Charlottesville - presumably after having his arm twisted over his original comments. His initial comments equated peaceful protesters with white supremacists, one of whom, a known neo-Nazi, had deliberately driven into the crowd, killing 1 person and injuring 28.

 

Here's how some neo-Nazis saw his original comments: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/neo-nazi-daily-stormer-trump-charlottesville_n_59905c7ee4b08a2472750701

"Reacting to Trump’s words on Saturday, the neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer praised the president’s comments as “good.” “He didn’t attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us,” wrote Andrew Anglin, the website’s founder. “No condemnation at all,” Anglin continued. “When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.”

 

p.s. Kahn = ex-German goalkeeper; Khan = London Mayor. 

[Foxin_Mad]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

What, launched lightning invasions against other nations that (are claimed to) have similar ideological positions? Not so much, I don't think...the USSR, Communist China and Venezuela have tended to keep their brutality in house and against people they disagree with.

 

Trump wants the best for certain parts of the American people - most certainly not others. That's what the people who elected him and those that back him want as well, after all.

Is that not how the whole of the USSR was formed by invading the likes of Ukraine, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Czechoslovakia etc? China - Tibet? Korean War?

 

I think some of his intentions i.e more jobs and more wealth for all Americans would benefit quite a few people. 

 

 

[Nick]

30 minutes ago, MattP said:

That press conference was great, often forget how funny Trump is, fantastic speaker as well in such a different way.

A fantastic speaker?

 

He read a script badly and then didn’t answer questions at all well and the only funny bit was his question to Gove at the end after plugging Boris and that was a fumble!

 

[Vacamion]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

p.s. Kahn = ex-German goalkeeper; Khan = London Mayor. 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

7 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I used quotation marks to signal that I was using your words. I just changed the word order and converted an adjective into an adverb (weirder->weirdly). You did say, inaccurately, that Khan called him a Nazi. Admittedly, you made a comparison that I did not, but if you say something is "weirder", most people will understand that it is "weird". So, you are being pedantic - I quoted your expressed meaning, if not your precise words. Whereas your claim about Khan was gross distortion, if not fabrication.

 

By comparing Trump to Kim, Putin, LePen, Orban, Farage, European dictators of the 30s/40s & military juntas of 70s/80s, Khan clearly infers that Trump is dangerous and of the Far Right. But I don't think he even uses the word "Nazi", never mind inferring that people are Nazis - or calling them Nazis. I appreciate that some of the wilder, more brain-dead Corbynistas might call them all Nazis, but no balanced, thoughtful person would categorise Putin, Farage, LePen or Kim as Nazis - Far Right, maybe. As an aside, I got high marks for a uni essay arguing that General Franco wasn't a fascist, although he had fascists (the Falange) in his brutal, autocratic, anti-democratic, reactionary alliance. 

 

I agree with your third line, except that I see it as a well-argued, evidence-based case that Khan presents, not just banging on - and he says we should "speak out", not "stand up to" Trump (though I'm probably being pedantic myself now).

 

"Far Right" is a vague, subjective term, I admit. But here's a Wiki definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics#Definition

"Authoritarianism, anti-communism and nativism ["promoting the interests of native inhabitants against those of immigrants, including by supporting immigration restriction measures"]" sounds like Trump. Likewise, talk of "superior people" and "inferior people". The definition goes on to look at "right-wing populism", saying this is sometimes described as Far Right. Again, the definition for that - "laissez-faire capitalism, nationalism, ethnocentrism and anti-elitism" sounds close to Trump....

 

"Far Right" doesn't have to involve jackboots marching into Poland and extermination camps. Many would see separating and caging immigrant children as Far Right, likewise blanket travel bans on predominantly Muslim nations, implying that most Mexican immigrants are criminals, rapists and drug dealers, intervening in the domestic politics of other nations (recommending Farage as negotiator, inviting Gove for talks during a leadership contest), sacking anyone who disagrees with you etc.

 

 

 

Apparently he made those comments 2 days after Charlottesville - presumably after having his arm twisted over his original comments. His initial comments equated peaceful protesters with white supremacists, one of whom, a known neo-Nazi, had deliberately driven into the crowd, killing 1 person and injuring 28.

 

Here's how some neo-Nazis saw his original comments: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/neo-nazi-daily-stormer-trump-charlottesville_n_59905c7ee4b08a2472750701

"Reacting to Trump’s words on Saturday, the neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer praised the president’s comments as “good.” “He didn’t attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us,” wrote Andrew Anglin, the website’s founder. “No condemnation at all,” Anglin continued. “When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.”

 

p.s. Kahn = ex-German goalkeeper; Khan = London Mayor. 

Right, i'll.swoop past these nazi technicalities because its clear what Kahn meant and yes i was fast and loose with the terms but the argument is the same. Interesting points from you nonetheless

 

As to the criticisms of Trump. Regardless of who made him say what and what the neo nazi said Trump did a speech which was anti racist, anti supremacist. The initial comment is not so explicit.

 

Apparently a high number of illegal mexican immigrants become criminals. Sorry if that fact is racist

 

The children in cages thing is not how you make it sound. Illegal immigrants are arrested and put in confinement, should children be confined with adults?

 

I presume issues at the border are not down to Trump and precede him.

 

These points about the border are nothing to do with facism and people generally want border enforcement for their countries. Thats not fascist. People saying it is is why Trump will win again

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Is that not how the whole of the USSR was formed by invading the likes of Ukraine, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Czechoslovakia etc? China - Tibet? Korean War?

 

I think some of his intentions i.e more jobs and more wealth for all Americans would benefit quite a few people. 

 

 

Hang on, I'll rewind a bit here:

 

"What, launched lightning invasions against other nations that (are claimed to) have similar ideological positions?"

 

That bolded part is important, because before we get lost in a sea of semantics the claim here is that the Nazis were somehow similar to the left-wing Communists despite invading and trying to exterminate the entire lot of them.

 

So, with that in mind...firstly were those countries similar in terms to the USSR in terms of ideology before the USSR invaded them...and secondly, what on Earth does this have to do with the original argument in the first place? Saying that the USSR was just like the Nazi regime because "they'd do what we do" despite that Nazi regime wanting every single one of them dead and their ideology utterly crushed is...something of a reach.

 

Back to Trump...yeah, I'm sure those women in Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky et al are really feeling the benefit right now, hey?

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

This was the article I had read -https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-like-20th-century-fascist-says-sadiq-khan

To be honest I think some of the language borders on hysterical, people may not like Salvini but I really don't see him as "far-right" - Orban probably gets closer to that but you can understand the people of Hungary showing some trepidation to recent European Union policy given what happened to them at the hands of the Ottoman empire.

No problem at all with him complaining about things like children being seperated from parents etc - I just wish he had done it with all the US leaders, it just looks a bit cheap when you only complain about Trump doing it and not say a word when it's Obama.

Point taken though and I withdraw my comment of "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by calling Trump a fascist" to "the sympathy from the British media for Sadiq Khan is disturbing as well - barely any of them mentioned he started all this off by likening Trump to a fascist"

 

Cheers. Such political categorisations are problematic as they're often fluid and/or disputed - and terms like "fascist", "Far Right" and "Nazi" are used as imprecise insults - likewise "Socialist", "Communist" etc.

 

Here's Wiki on fascism, as a comparison to its definition of "Far Right" (quoted in reply to YesNdidi): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

I'd see Trump as Far Right or a Far Right Populist, but probably not a fascist, never mind a Nazi - and it's "Far Right" that is Khan's accusation, I think.

I'd see fascism as a stage more authoritarian, anti-democratic, brutal towards opponents, maybe militaristic.... Trump, Farage, LePen, Orban & Salvini might get there one day, but not yet.

 

Here's a fact-check type response to those who equate Trump's caging of children with Obama's: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/9/18303439/trump-blame-obama-family-separations-debunked

If that site is to be believed, such things did happen under Obama, but to a lesser extent in extremis, but became more routine under Trump. The main crisis under Obama seems to have happened in 2014 - before Khan was mayor.

[Vacamion]

 

If you didn't know who Trump was, you would assume from the statement he read out that he has the reading age of a 12 year old. He struggled with big words. 

 

He did, however, say nice things about May and the UK, but given that he told two demonstrable untruths:

 

- his assessment of support and protest

 

- his assertion, made before, that he predicted Brexit when opening a golf course in Scotland (actually the day after the Brexit vote) 

 

You have to wonder to what extent we can really trust his kind words and his suggestion about a "phenomenal" trade deal. 

[EnderbyFox]

 

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Right, i'll.swoop past these nazi technicalities because its clear what Kahn meant and yes i was fast and loose with the terms but the argument is the same. Interesting points from you nonetheless

 

As to the criticisms of Trump. Regardless of who made him say what and what the neo nazi said Trump did a speech which was anti racist, anti supremacist. The initial comment is not so explicit.

 

Apparently a high number of illegal mexican immigrants become criminals. Sorry if that fact is racist

 

The children in cages thing is not how you make it sound. Illegal immigrants are arrested and put in confinement, should children be confined with adults?

 

I presume issues at the border are not down to Trump and precede him.

 

These points about the border are nothing to do with facism and people generally want border enforcement for their countries. Thats not fascist. People saying it is is why Trump will win again

 

Cheers. I agree, nice rhetoric by Trump second time around after he'd faced widespread criticism for his initial response. We draw our own conclusions on his sincerity, I suppose.

 

Here's Trump on Mexicans: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-37230916/drug-dealers-criminals-rapists-what-trump-thinks-of-mexicans

- "they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists, - and some, I assume, are good people" suggests that the vast majority are NOT "good people".

Any idea what percentage become criminals? Do you have a figure for that? I'm sure quite a few do, out of a large number of often desperate people (& some pro crims, no doubt) - but is it the vast majority?

 

On the separation of children, I'm sure that sometimes has to happen temporarily - but I saw a C4 News report months back saying how a large number have still not been reunited with their parents.

And why cages for children? I know the US detention system is generally more brutal than ours, so suspected criminals being caged is no surprise - but the children presumably haven't done anything to deserve that, even if their parents have?

 

I've repeatedly been referring to "Far Right", not "fascism" - as Khan was, I'd say. I agree with your last point, though - idiot lefties calling everyone "fascists" does alienate people and help the likes of Trump - and Farage. Same applies to those accusing all Brexit supporters of being racists. 

[Foxin_Mad]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Hang on, I'll rewind a bit here:

 

"What, launched lightning invasions against other nations that (are claimed to) have similar ideological positions?"

 

That bolded part is important, because before we get lost in a sea of semantics the claim here is that the Nazis were somehow similar to the left-wing Communists despite invading and trying to exterminate the entire lot of them.

 

So, with that in mind...firstly were those countries similar in terms to the USSR in terms of ideology before the USSR invaded them...and secondly, what on Earth does this have to do with the original argument in the first place? Saying that the USSR was just like the Nazi regime because "they'd do what we do" despite that Nazi regime wanting every single one of them dead and their ideology utterly crushed is...something of a reach.

 

Back to Trump...yeah, I'm sure those women in Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky et al are really feeling the benefit right now, hey?

I am not sure there was ever a claim the Nazis were similar to the left wing communists they are of course no, I said they were both crazy and both killed people. I saying that both principles seem to come from a similar place and end in a similar place. If find it strange the usual left = good, right = bad thing when its simply not true, both can be bad, both can be good. 

 

Its controversial to suggest that those countries were of a similar ideology before the USSR invaded them. I am not so sure the likes of Ukraine would agree. I know certain factions of the left think the dissolution of the USSR was a bad thing.

 

At the end of the day the Nazis believed in a master race, the Slavs weren't part of that particular ideology but its not to say most of their principles were not similar.

 

Back to Trump, there will always been people who don't agree with a leader. I am not American but growth seems good, and employment levels are good, this seems good to the vast majority of people. With regards the women of Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky is this really Trumps fault of that of the particular states? 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I am not sure there was ever a claim the Nazis were similar to the left wing communists they are of course no, I said they were both crazy and both killed people. I saying that both principles seem to come from a similar place and end in a similar place. If find it strange the usual left = good, right = bad thing when its simply not true, both can be bad, both can be good. 

 

Its controversial to suggest that those countries were of a similar ideology before the USSR invaded them. I am not so sure the likes of Ukraine would agree. I know certain factions of the left think the dissolution of the USSR was a bad thing.

 

At the end of the day the Nazis believed in a master race, the Slavs weren't part of that particular ideology but its not to say most of their principles were not similar.

 

Back to Trump, there will always been people who don't agree with a leader. I am not American but growth seems good, and employment levels are good, this seems good to the vast majority of people. With regards the women of Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky is this really Trumps fault of that of the particular states? 

*shrug* Totalitarianism is totalitarianism to me, so I guess we'll leave it at that.

 

WRT Trump, people often use the economic angle as it's probably the only area where there's a possible salient argument that he's done good for some people. As if money were the sole arbiter of good political performance. And yes - the states passing legislation is most certainly his fault, and here's why: the legislature of those states have been looking to challenge Roe v Wade for decades, they only lacked the necessary makeup of the Supreme Court to give a chance to rule in their favour. Trump gave that makeup, and so they're making their move.

 

Have a look on the page before this one for more questionable policy areas.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Cheers. I agree, nice rhetoric by Trump second time around after he'd faced widespread criticism for his initial response. We draw our own conclusions on his sincerity, I suppose.

 

Here's Trump on Mexicans: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-37230916/drug-dealers-criminals-rapists-what-trump-thinks-of-mexicans

- "they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists, - and some, I assume, are good people" suggests that the vast majority are NOT "good people".

Any idea what percentage become criminals? Do you have a figure for that? I'm sure quite a few do, out of a large number of often desperate people (& some pro crims, no doubt) - but is it the vast majority?

 

On the separation of children, I'm sure that sometimes has to happen temporarily - but I saw a C4 News report months back saying how a large number have still not been reunited with their parents.

And why cages for children? I know the US detention system is generally more brutal than ours, so suspected criminals being caged is no surprise - but the children presumably haven't done anything to deserve that, even if their parents have?

 

I've repeatedly been referring to "Far Right", not "fascism" - as Khan was, I'd say. I agree with your last point, though - idiot lefties calling everyone "fascists" does alienate people and help the likes of Trump - and Farage. Same applies to those accusing all Brexit supporters of being racists. 

I dont have any stats for the crime rates of illegal immigrants, it was somethinf Michael Knowles said at a college talk. Will have to try and find it and post if i can. If the percentage is reasonably high then Trump's comment you quoted may be crude but not without somethig behind it?

 

But as you say, actual stats would be useful which i dont have

[MC Prussian]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

*shrug* Totalitarianism is totalitarianism to me, so I guess we'll leave it at that.

 

WRT Trump, people often use the economic angle as it's probably the only area where there's a possible salient argument that he's done good for some people. As if money were the sole arbiter of good political performance. And yes - the states passing legislation is most certainly his fault, and here's why: the legislature of those states have been looking to challenge Roe v Wade for decades, they only lacked the necessary makeup of the Supreme Court to give a chance to rule in their favour. Trump gave that makeup, and so they're making their move.

 

Have a look on the page before this one for more questionable policy areas.

Unemployment in all categories at an all-time low in the past 50 years, so you may want to rephrase that.

https://www.apnews.com/e1afa3f19a054540a7c34ca193bdd9ae

 

Connected to that the reintroduction of jobs back in the US that were formerly transferred to other countries.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/01/trumps-numbers-january-2019-update/

 

Keep in mind that a country's economy is a complex construct and that negative growth rates in some areas is down/linked to positive ones in other areas.

The total debt is an inheritance from previous presidents, including a giant chunk added by his predecessor Obama.

Edited 4 June 2019 by MC Prussian

[Foxin_Mad]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

*shrug* Totalitarianism is totalitarianism to me, so I guess we'll leave it at that.

 

WRT Trump, people often use the economic angle as it's probably the only area where there's a possible salient argument that he's done good for some people. As if money were the sole arbiter of good political performance. And yes - the states passing legislation is most certainly his fault, and here's why: the legislature of those states have been looking to challenge Roe v Wade for decades, they only lacked the necessary makeup of the Supreme Court to give a chance to rule in their favour. Trump gave that makeup, and so they're making their move.

 

Have a look on the page before this one for more questionable policy areas.

With that I can agree.

 

Thanks for explaining.

 

I am absolutely sure that there are many questionable policies (will flick back at some point), I suppose its difficult to please all of the people all of the time. I don't know what the general mass consensus of people in the US is?!

 

I think a lot of people will be swayed by money, if you make a population more wealthy they will more likely vote for you. Sadly the majority of the human race isn't that compassionate, hence the reason why so many rich people never share their wealth with the poor equally despite having the ability to do so, should they want to.

 

Edited 4 June 2019 by Foxin_Mad

[Buce]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Also claimed Jeremy Corbyn asked for a meeting and it was turned down.

So he boycotts the banquet with Donald Trump and then asks for a meeting with him

This man is absolutely ridiculous.

 

And you believe him, of course.

 

Just like he claims he didn't call the Windsor woman 'nasty' despite it being on tape. He's a congenital liar.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Unemployment in all categories at an all-time low in the past 50 years, so you may want to rephrase that.

https://www.apnews.com/e1afa3f19a054540a7c34ca193bdd9ae

 

Connected to that the reintroduction of jobs back in the US that were formerly transferred to other countries.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/01/trumps-numbers-january-2019-update/

 

Keep in mind that a country's economy is a complex construct and that negative growth rates in some areas is down/linked to positive ones in other areas.

The total debt is an inheritance from previous presidents, including a giant chunk added by his predecessor Obama.

Interesting graph in that article...almost as if the downward trend began in 2011 and simply kept going.

 

In any case, seeing as there are still people still unemployed I will keep using "some" people as opposed to "all" or even "most" as it's accurate, thank you very much.

 

Additionally, as above: as if economics is the sole arbiter of political success, or even close to simply the most important. I wouldn't mind hearing where he's had success in other areas...if any.

 

2 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

With that I can agree.

 

Thanks for explaining.

 

I am absolutely sure that there are many questionable policies (will flick back at some point), I suppose its difficult to please all of the people all of the time. I don't know what the general mass consensus of people in the US is?!

 

I think a lot of people will be swayed by money, if you make a population more wealthy they will more likely vote for you. Sadly the majority of the human race isn't that compassionate, hence the reason why so many rich people never share their wealth with the poor equally despite having the ability to do so, should they want to.

Well, according to 538.com his overall approval ratings have been around 40% for the longest time now (significantly higher among white males, somewhat lower among white women, significantly lower among all black and Latino populations):

 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

 

FWIW, for all my arguments about economics not being very important personally I agree with you about money being a powerful motivator and about human nature in general - I wish it wasn't so.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

And you believe him, of course.

 

Just like he claims he didn't call the Windsor woman 'nasty' despite it being on tape. He's a congenital liar.

Corbyn's office have confirmed it

[Foxin_Mad]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

And you believe him, of course.

 

Just like he claims he didn't call the Windsor woman 'nasty' despite it being on tape. He's a congenital liar.

So is Corbyn to be fair. 

 

-The man who could find a space on a Virgin Train, sat on the floor despite having a booked 1st class ticket!

-I was present at wreath-laying but don't think I was involved

 

There are many others but neither can be trusted, like most politicians I guess. 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

Sadiq Kahn has further clarified his position on Trump with a little video

 

I get it now

 

Khan is a f***ing moron

Edited 4 June 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Corbyn's office have confirmed it

 

Why the hell they didn't announce that in the first place, I don't know.

 

Would have been a perfectly respectable stance - finding a state visit inappropriate but proposing a business meeting

Though, given they're never going to agree on anything (apart from a common liking for national solutions), he might as well have gone to the banquet, had a quick word, then given a press conference.

 

Further comedy news...... Change UK has split. 6 of its 11 MPs, including Umunna & Allen, have left - apparently destined for the Lib Dems at some point. 

 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/04/change-uk-poised-to-lose-at-least-half-its-mps-heidi-allen-chuka-umunna-lib-dems

[Alf Bentley]

9 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Sadiq Kahn has further clarified his position on Trump with a little video

 

I get it now

 

Kahn is a f***ing moron

 

Spot on.....what a nutter!

 

 

[Nick]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Corbyn's office have confirmed it

They offered to meet to make it clear it wasn’t about not doing business or not turning up. It’s always been about not wishing to support the state welcome for Trump.

 

On an aside I notice questions were taken by the PM from the British Media were from the Times and SKY - were they allowed to make up their own questions?

 

Enjoyed Trump suggesting there were only a very small amount of protesters and the thousands gathered down the road were Fake News. ?