The Doctor Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 36 minutes ago, Webbo said: Is it really, or is it just another scare story? The article 50 letter unnecessarily pulled out of euratom, putting our nuclear industry in the lurch, so yes. You not liking reality doesn't make it a scare story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 Just now, The Doctor said: The article 50 letter unnecessarily pulled out of euratom, putting our nuclear industry in the lurch, so yes. You not liking reality doesn't make it a scare story. Did they give a reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 13 minutes ago, leicsmac said: As far as can be ascertained, it is. Galileo and Euratom are examples of such projects where UK nationals might get shut out and have to renegotiate getting back in, and there are dozens of other projects just like that. Even if the negotiations are successful the damage caused in the meantime (because that will take a while because no one important seems to give a toss) is going to be severe. Scientific progress (and access to profitable projects for British companies, if you're a money-grubber) are likely going to be held up here. Some people might say that it's worth that. I do not. I can't imagine the Tories letting money grabbing opportunities for their business friends go even if it costs taxpayers money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 3 minutes ago, davieG said: I can't imagine the Tories letting money grabbing opportunities for their business friends go even if it costs taxpayers money Or as it's sometimes called "promoting British business". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 3 minutes ago, davieG said: I can't imagine the Tories letting money grabbing opportunities for their business friends go even if it costs taxpayers money Depends. Is the money-grubbing or the appearance of having zilch to do with anything EU-related at the expense of scientific development more important to them and their voter base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 Just now, leicsmac said: Depends. Is the money-grubbing or the appearance of having zilch to do with anything EU-related at the expense of scientific development more important to them and their voter base? You're being silly. Just because you don't want to be run by Europe, it doesn't follow that you hate all things European.It's in nobody's interest to stop co operation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 Just now, Webbo said: Or as it's sometimes called "promoting British business". Yes, because in this day and age we are capable of doing marquee scientific projects by ourselves and have both the resources and (more importantly) the political and people-based will to do it. Like it or not this is an important issue being overlooked because most people simply don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 5 minutes ago, Webbo said: Did they give a reason? For pulling out of euratom? No. Doesn't change the fact that theres no legal expectation to leave euratom at the same time as the eu, and leaving is a threat to our nuclear industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 Just now, Webbo said: You're being silly. Just because you don't want to be run by Europe, it doesn't follow that you hate all things European.It's in nobody's interest to stop co operation 1 Of course it's not, but it's happening anyway. And the renegotiation to get it back is going to take time (if it suceeds at all) because - as I said above - it's considered low priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 Just now, leicsmac said: Yes, because in this day and age we are capable of doing marquee scientific projects by ourselves and have both the resources and (more importantly) the political and people-based will to do it. Like it or not this is an important issue being overlooked because most people simply don't care. It was a reference to Davie G's comment about " money grabbing opportunities for their business friends". When other parties do it it's called promoting British industry and considered a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: It was a reference to Davie G's comment about " money grabbing opportunities for their business friends". When other parties do it it's called promoting British industry and considered a good thing. In the scientific fields in this day and age that shouldn't be the only consideration, but that's a discussion for another time. In any case, what's happening now in this area is likely to damage British high-tech companies in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: Or as it's sometimes called "promoting British business". Depends whether the ends justifies the means so many of these British businesses are not actually British and even if they are for me not enough of the profits seem to be trickling down. Any taxpayers money needs to ultimately benefit the British population the massively cynic in me doesn't think this is happening as much as it should. Governments, not just the British are slowly losing control to international conglomerates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 UK business investment resilient despite Brexit Effect of vote to leave EU has been more muted than economists’ expected https://www.ft.com/content/e1a355dc-3971-11e7-ac89-b01cc67cfeec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 9 minutes ago, Webbo said: UK business investment resilient despite Brexit Effect of vote to leave EU has been more muted than economists’ expected https://www.ft.com/content/e1a355dc-3971-11e7-ac89-b01cc67cfeec Is this overall, or just for the STEM industry? (Again, not that investment/return should be the only marker for success in that field.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 5 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Is this overall, or just for the STEM industry? (Again, not that investment/return should be the only marker for success in that field.) It wasn't actually a reply to your post, it just came up in my twitter feed. When I cut and paste the whole article it just comes up with a link to a firewalled article. The graphs work though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 27 minutes ago, Webbo said: It wasn't actually a reply to your post, it just came up in my twitter feed. When I cut and paste the whole article it just comes up with a link to a firewalled article. The graphs work though. That's fair enough. The science stuff is what is interesting, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchsntf Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 To all remainers (including myself) Going going going, going, going, going going going, going, leaving on a wing and a prayer, going, going...on your bike, going, going, going going going ... goodnight sailor, going going, like spurs never to win the title, going going.....going going going going...... BIG BANG...!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 29 May 2017 Share Posted 29 May 2017 23 hours ago, fuchsntf said: To all remainers (including myself) Going going going, going, going, going going going, going, leaving on a wing and a prayer, going, going...on your bike, going, going, going going going ... goodnight sailor, going going, like spurs never to win the title, going going.....going going going going...... BIG BANG...!!!! What. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 31 May 2017 Share Posted 31 May 2017 On 20/05/2017 at 13:54, Izzy Muzzett said: I've read this sentence numerous times and I still don't understand it. If you're 'self-determined' and someone reduces your money, wouldn't that make you even more self determined? History is littered with examples of people who have determined their own future and started out with next to no money. Those 'rags to riches' tales we hear of. Why do we need money to be self determined? I don't get it. Those people in life who are focused, determined, work hard, create opportunities for themselves, believe in their potential and are resilient and persistent, will ultimately create their own money and happiness. If the government or whoever reduce my money, that just makes me even more determined to bridge the gap. Why should I let outside forces or circumstances determine my own self determination? Sounds like a lazy and entitled view to me... There's a difference here in the word determined and self-determination. Determined is how much you want to achieve something. Self-determination is your ability to achieve that. Being made redundant due to economic slowdown won't reduce how much you want to rise in your profession, but the economy has now reduced your ability to achieve that as well. You can of course still achieve it, but it's now not as easy, it's now harder to achieve what you want, to direct your future as well as you could have before. And people say Brexit is about self-determination. But if the economy reduces people's money, and the money they have for their kids, then their ability to determine their future - their self-determination - has been reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 31 May 2017 Share Posted 31 May 2017 And the point about an economic slowdown is already here - 44% of our economy (£240 billion) is trade with EU companies and about 50% of that is looking to move away from us. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-eu-businesses-cut-ties-uk-suppliers-european-union-a7736056.html This is the same reason why our chemical industry about is looking shaky. This means profit losses, this means job losses, this means wage stagnation, this means lower spending, this means economic slowdown. And those people who are affected by that - their ability to direct their own future, their self-determination... tell them their self-determination has increased. May has a way to avoid this - an easy way that abides by leaving the EU, the way that Norway took. But she refuses to take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 June 2017 Share Posted 1 June 2017 14 hours ago, Foxxed said: And the point about an economic slowdown is already here - 44% of our economy (£240 billion) is trade with EU companies and about 50% of that is looking to move away from us. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-eu-businesses-cut-ties-uk-suppliers-european-union-a7736056.html This is the same reason why our chemical industry about is looking shaky. This means profit losses, this means job losses, this means wage stagnation, this means lower spending, this means economic slowdown. And those people who are affected by that - their ability to direct their own future, their self-determination... tell them their self-determination has increased. May has a way to avoid this - an easy way that abides by leaving the EU, the way that Norway took. But she refuses to take it. This is 100% true, but (and i'm not an expert) wouldn't trade deals we make with non-eu countries replace that revenue ? I listen to a 'wake up to money' podcast and they always have UK businesses on who have started seeking trade outside of EU, but under current regulations, so while I agree. i also think this article maybe one sided ? In addition aren't major tech firms investing in the UK at present ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 1 June 2017 Share Posted 1 June 2017 8 hours ago, Soundman said: This is 100% true, but (and i'm not an expert) wouldn't trade deals we make with non-eu countries replace that revenue ? I listen to a 'wake up to money' podcast and they always have UK businesses on who have started seeking trade outside of EU, but under current regulations, so while I agree. i also think this article maybe one sided ? In addition aren't major tech firms investing in the UK at present ? The problem with trade deals is we're now no longer as appealing as before - not for US, not for China, not for Australia. As for tech, our leading Fintech (financial technology) companies are leaving the UK since we're leaving the Single Market, something which they're reliant on due to regulation. "Investors pull funding from fintech start-ups after Brexit vote" https://www.ft.com/content/5ee14f04-ab47-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24 "TransferWise and Azimo are setting up European HQs because of Brexit — who's next?" http://www.businessinsider.de/transferwise-new-europe-hq-brexit-fintech-brain-drain-2017-4?r=US&IR=T In addition, a large swath of funding for the tech industry in the UK is leaving: https://www.ft.com/content/8fab88be-34c9-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e Quote British technology investors face being cut off from Europe’s largest single source of venture capital funding, in a sign that the UK’s relationship with European institutions is weakening even before its official exit from the EU. The European Investment Fund, a public-private partnership which accounts for more than a third of investment in UK-based venture capital funds, is slowing its activity in Britain and turning away funds that may have otherwise been eligible for investment, according to industry figures. Anyone works in Fintech, anyone who works in the chemical industry, anyone work works in tech and relies on funding, anyone in the financial sector - all of them will be sucker-punched thanks to our new found "self-determination" to name only four sectors among many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 2 June 2017 Share Posted 2 June 2017 Finally, the ‘scaremongers’ of Brexit are being proved right It’s taken a year, but as Britain’s economy slumps and inflation bites, the warnings about the costs of our vote to leave the EU are coming true https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/02/brexit-scaremongers-proved-right-economy-slump-inflation It should be pointed out that Italy's growth got revised upwards at the same time as the UKs got revised down and that Greece had faster growth in the first quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 3 June 2017 Share Posted 3 June 2017 9 hours ago, Steven said: Finally, the ‘scaremongers’ of Brexit are being proved right It’s taken a year, but as Britain’s economy slumps and inflation bites, the warnings about the costs of our vote to leave the EU are coming true https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/02/brexit-scaremongers-proved-right-economy-slump-inflation It should be pointed out that Italy's growth got revised upwards at the same time as the UKs got revised down and that Greece had faster growth in the first quarter. Yeah but hey, no deal is better than a bad deal right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 4 June 2017 Share Posted 4 June 2017 The world's second largest trader in currencies now prefers Labour in a hung parliament: May needs to shelter the economy from the Brexit's effect on the financial sector - accounting for about 20% of our economy, about £71bn to the Exchequer. Goldman Sach's has said Brexit 'will stall' the City of London https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-goldman-sachs-cut-london-stall-leaving-eu-lloyd-blankfein-a7718876.html Banks braced for ‘hundreds of millions’ in Brexit costs https://www.ft.com/content/bfb842f2-36fb-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e where the costs 'will get passed on to the client base' according to Goldman Sachs. JP Morgan has already started moving its office to Dublin https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/15/jp-morgan-landmark-office-dublin-brexit. Investec are looking to do the same http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/18/investec-eyes-dublin-brexit-banking-subsidiary/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw. Deutsche Bank has warned outside the Single Market they'll have to move around 4,000 staff to deal with EU finance https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-26/deutsche-bank-s-matherat-says-4-000-u-k-jobs-at-risk-in-brexit UBS warned of this much earlier. And about a quarter of firms are already thinking of relocating: And multi-million euro denominations gig in London is looking to move to an EU country now. http://uk.businessinsider.com/london-losing-euro-clearing-brexit-2017-5?r=US&IR=T May seems not to care about the UK as a global financial centre - something Thatcher created as a source of funds after fighting the miners and manufacturing base. But if she doesn't care about it, she certainly needs an alternative source of funds. She has currently no plans whatsoever. And all our fancy new trading deals have come to nothing, apart from the US, China and Austrialia saying they find the Single Market more important now. It makes me doubt her economic competence. She has a way around this: leave the EU but remain in the Single Market. But she has consistently chose to abandon this approach for vague fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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