General Election, June 8th

[Rincewind]

8 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Actually, it's one of the things I like most about Corbyn; it appears that he's a genuine, down-to-earth man, who hasn't allowed notoriety or position to change him. The kind of man who deserves respect for adhering to his beliefs so diligently, whether you agree with him or not. 

 

Most policians don't have even half his integrity. 

I saw an old news clip of him. He was still the same. He had an old jumper on (looked old)  and was being asked about it as he was going to the HOC. He said some of the MP's dress in dinner suits to go but he liked to be comfortable. Asked about the jumper he said My mum knitted it me and its very snug. He said there was more important things than looking nice in his job.

 

May have paraphrased what he said but its the gist. Shows he has not changed in all those years. Whether a good or bad thing I dont know but at least he hasn't turned into a Tony Blair. ).

[Sharpe's Fox]

6 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

I saw an old news clip of him. He was still the same. He had an old jumper on (looked old)  and was being asked about it as he was going to the HOC. He said some of the MP's dress in dinner suits to go but he liked to be comfortable. Asked about the jumper he said My mum knitted it me and its very snug. He said there was more important things than looking nice in his job.

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Integrity is great as long as the beliefs you hold dear aren't stuck in some nutty 1970's Marxist ideology, and you are not wanting to run the country.

How are ideas that are mainstream in Europe 'nutty Marxist ideology'?

 

My prediction is that the Tories will win a landslide this election. At best that margin of victory will be cut drastically next time round, or possibly lost completely, however, if cuts continue through the life of the parliament - particularly if Brexit causes the country to fare badly. We already have the BoE warning that people will be suffering real terms wage decreases this year - that isn't something that can go on for long before the government begins to flounder. Continuing to starve the economy of investment (don't try to argue about 'record spending' as every government spends record amounts due to inflation but it is the growth of expenditure that is being cut) will mean that real terms growth continues to be non-existent and the government will either change tack entirely around 4 years from now - presumably giving a pre-amble about having got through tough times despite there having been no real change in the real economy - and begin to spend in order to save itself from election defeat or they'll be a labour government incoming. 

 

Last time round the Tories accused Ed Millband's spending plans of being Marxist madness that would bankrupt the country yet analysis shows that the Tories have actually spent pretty much in line with the Labour manifesto rather than their own (a point not denied by one of the Tory cabinet ministers -  i can't remember which one - only this week).

[theessexfox]

42 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Integrity is great as long as the beliefs you hold dear aren't stuck in some nutty 1970's Marxist ideology, and you are not wanting to run the country.

Not just you, but I think people generally need to read up on what Marx wrote... 

[Guest MattP]

46 minutes ago, Buce said:

Actually, it's one of the things I like most about Corbyn; it appears that he's a genuine, down-to-earth man, who hasn't allowed notoriety or position to change him. The kind of man who deserves respect for adhering to his beliefs so diligently, whether you agree with him or not. 

 

Most policians don't have even half his integrity. 

He's not really some man of huge integrity though is he and his beliefs on some things i.e Brexit went out of the window when it came to the crunch.

 

I mean Diane Abbott is the shadow home secretary because she used to shag him, he said he would never appoint someone to the Lords and then did as soon as they did him a favour, that's before we get onto his shameless fibs on the train or the groups he has met with in the past through personal choice as a backbencher.

 

His fans obviously see him as it but I doubt the wider public have been taken in so easily.

[Foxxed]

Heartily agree with this.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/15/labour-must-view-tory-voters-as-our-friends-says-jonathan-ashworth

 

'The shadow health secretary has urged Labour to see Conservative voters as the party’s “friends and neighbours and relatives” rather than portraying those who are attracted to Theresa May’s offer as the enemy.'

 

I've met too many (more than one) hard left voters who half-jokingly see Tory voters as evil. And the idea Labour see the voters they need to convince as the enemy is wearing anti-electabilty spray.

 

I tend to enjoy chatting to liberal Tories more than hard left voters these days. We tend to disagree on things like investing in society to make society healthier since we live there, but still: they also care about the NHS, they also want a strong opposition, they are also proud of a welcoming and fair culture.

[Bryn]

I haven't got a bloody clue who to vote for in this Election, I really don't.

 

For me it's going to be based primarily on the health service. I think it's one of the most important things anyway, and of course being employed by it makes it all the more relevant.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that the Tories deliberately undermine the NHS, which cannot be tolerated. If they were honest about their intentions and wanted a proper debate about the future of the NHS and how to pay for it, I could get on board with that, but they won't, they will just run it down until it collapses. I also don't believe they generally have the welfare of the majority of the people at heart, I think they want a status quo where the prosperous continue to prosper and the less well-off stagnate.

 

I saw the plans for the NHS from Labour this morning. Just looks like chucking more money into the black hole for me. And more nonsensical arbritrary targets; in addition to the dreaded four hour window which causes emergency departments to abandon proper triage and treatment in favour of simple firing off patients in every direction to get them out before the window closes, they now want a one-hour window for the "most urgent" cases (and to reiterate, the window is to see them, treat them AND move them, not just resuscitate them). How can that be a good thing? Surely you want a system where the most critically unwell patients are seen immediately and thereafter the nurses and doctors have the resources and confidence to triage, treat and transfer as appropriate? And how do you define urgent? Some heart attacks and strokes are small and/or do not necessitate emergency treatment, others require an immediate action to preserve life and function. How do you legislate for that? You need your clinicians to do that.

 

I don't even know what the Lib Dems stand for, and I feel like a vote for anyone else is just handing the Tories an even larger majority.

 

There seems to be no centre-ground anymore. Time for PR I think, invariably in these elections you end up with a situation in which 50.5% of the population get what they want and the other 49.5% are horrified. That can't be right.

[Buce]

24 minutes ago, Bryn said:

I haven't got a bloody clue who to vote for in this Election, I really don't.

 

For me it's going to be based primarily on the health service. I think it's one of the most important things anyway, and of course being employed by it makes it all the more relevant.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that the Tories deliberately undermine the NHS, which cannot be tolerated. If they were honest about their intentions and wanted a proper debate about the future of the NHS and how to pay for it, I could get on board with that, but they won't, they will just run it down until it collapses. I also don't believe they generally have the welfare of the majority of the people at heart, I think they want a status quo where the prosperous continue to prosper and the less well-off stagnate.

 

I saw the plans for the NHS from Labour this morning. Just looks like chucking more money into the black hole for me. And more nonsensical arbritrary targets; in addition to the dreaded four hour window which causes emergency departments to abandon proper triage and treatment in favour of simple firing off patients in every direction to get them out before the window closes, they now want a one-hour window for the "most urgent" cases (and to reiterate, the window is to see them, treat them AND move them, not just resuscitate them). How can that be a good thing? Surely you want a system where the most critically unwell patients are seen immediately and thereafter the nurses and doctors have the resources and confidence to triage, treat and transfer as appropriate? And how do you define urgent? Some heart attacks and strokes are small and/or do not necessitate emergency treatment, others require an immediate action to preserve life and function. How do you legislate for that? You need your clinicians to do that.

 

I don't even know what the Lib Dems stand for, and I feel like a vote for anyone else is just handing the Tories an even larger majority.

 

There seems to be no centre-ground anymore. Time for PR I think, invariably in these elections you end up with a situation in which 50.5% of the population get what they want and the other 49.5% are horrified. That can't be right.

 

50.5% of the population?

 

That is only the case in the referendum. A GE is a far worse distortion of democracy - the current govt was elected by circa 23% of the electorate. 

[Bryn]

23 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

50.5% of the population?

 

That is only the case in the referendum. A GE is a far worse distortion of democracy - the current govt was elected by circa 23% of the electorate. 

 

Quite.

[Guest MattP]

28 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

50.5% of the population?

 

That is only the case in the referendum. A GE is a far worse distortion of democracy - the current govt was elected by circa 23% of the electorate. 

A Tory/UKIP coalition would have been marvellous.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

A Tory/UKIP coalition would have been marvellous.

The Tories have become UKIP so you won't need a coalition. 

Literally the worst possible political outcome I can imagine. 

 

[Sharpe's Fox]

The main man

 

 

[Lionator]

10 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

The main man

 

 

He's been fantastic in the lead up to this election so far. It's a shame he hasn't been like that since he became leader, although has he not been given the exposure he's getting now? It's not going to be enough, he won't be able to convince enough people to put himself in power for a multitude of reasons however, he is offering an alternative and I hope it's not the walkover that some were predicting a few weeks ago.

[Sharpe's Fox]

27 minutes ago, Lionator said:

He's been fantastic in the lead up to this election so far. It's a shame he hasn't been like that since he became leader, although has he not been given the exposure he's getting now? It's not going to be enough, he won't be able to convince enough people to put himself in power for a multitude of reasons however, he is offering an alternative and I hope it's not the walkover that some were predicting a few weeks ago.

He's a great campaigner just a bit rubbish on the day to day

[sphericalfox]

20 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Not a policy document as you well know.

It's a document that is the backbone of nearly every policy and aspiration for the Tories for the next 20 years. I'd say it's a fairly significant document.

[Guest]

https://www.indy100.com/article/theresa-may-hypocrisy-workers-rights-vote-twitter-7736606?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100

[Guest]

.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Please don't just ctrl c and ctrl v whole articles lads

[Guest]

got rid. can be accessed via the link in my previous post

[Guest]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/15/labour-reveals-fat-cat-tax-pledge-aimed-at-reining-in-excessive-pay

 

absolutely rinsing the tories policy wise

[Innovindil]

38 minutes ago, toddybad said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/15/labour-reveals-fat-cat-tax-pledge-aimed-at-reining-in-excessive-pay

 

absolutely rinsing the tories policy wise

Have to agree. Labour definitely growing on me. 

[Bryn]

That strikes me as a good policy. Stings the employer (bank, let's be honest) rather than the employee but is a small percentage of the actual bonus. So companies that are profitable and want to reward that still probably will give the bonuses and the Treasury takes a cut, or they'll decide actually that employee doesn't warrant the bonus in the first place and hopefully discourage their use.

[Guest]

Before mattp and jonthehat decry labour's policies as 70s marxcist claptrap, it should be remembered that thatcher's government had a top tax rate of 60% and that currently the UK has the lowest corporation taxes in the G7 - around half that of the infamously marxcist US. The problem is that people like them have been taken in by years of economic policy that doesn't work for the majority of the country. 

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Before mattp and jonthehat decry labour's policies as 70s marxcist claptrap, it should be remembered that thatcher's government had a top tax rate of 60% and that currently the UK has the lowest corporation taxes in the G7 - around half that of the infamously marxcist US. The problem is that people like them have been taken in by years of economic policy that doesn't work for the majority of the country. 

We have the fastest growth in the G7 - maybe the two things are connected? 

 

I admire the morality of some of the things in Labour's manifesto but if France lowers it's corporation tax to what Macron says we may as well help firms pack up on the first day they take office.

 

The cut in Corporation tax raised about 21 billion extra for the treasury (according to the Sunday politics) so you can see why people are extremely doubtful that the rise will create anything.

 

I don't see any point whatsoever comparing it with Thatcher, that was over 30 years ago, it's a different world now and it's never been easier for a company or person to uproot themselves if they feel they are being punished. 

 

Anyway just a couple of hours until we see how this is all going to be paid for but if they are assuming no business or individual is going to change their model I think you are in a fantasy land, if you did win I bet we'll have a record number of people who will be earning £79,500 a year though. 

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Before mattp and jonthehat decry labour's policies as 70s marxcist claptrap, it should be remembered that thatcher's government had a top tax rate of 60% and that currently the UK has the lowest corporation taxes in the G7 - around half that of the infamously marxcist US. The problem is that people like them have been taken in by years of economic policy that doesn't work for the majority of the country. 

They had a top rate of 83% when they were first elected but they reduced it year on year until it got to 40.