North Korea

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Wymeswold fox said:

It could, or if it isn't already, prove awkward between the two counties and the US?

Think there's more to this than meets the eye imo.

They're trying to split the south and the us, obvs. Moon didn't cave tbf but it's a sensible tactic. Tbh n.Korea are less likely to set the world ablaze that the twat in the Whitehouse.

[Dr The Singh]

There women are well fit

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

There women are well fit

Isit 

[Bellend Sebastian]

10 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

There women are well fit

Kim's sister is rather lovely

[breadandcheese]

They honey-potting us

[Guest MattP]

The progress made over the last few months has been incredible.

 

I'm almost starting to think we've all called this wrong and the North Korean public aggression isn't actually tub tumping towards the US but a plea, a call for help to be released from the chains China has them in.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

The progress made over the last few months has been incredible.

 

I'm almost starting to think we've all called this wrong and the North Korean public aggression isn't actually tub tumping towards the US but a plea, a call for help to be released from the chains China has them in.

They completed their military programme which they believe will deter American military aggression.

They are now trying to split the south Korea/American diplomatic ties. 

It's hardly rocket science.

I'm constantly confused by your take on North Korea.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

They completed their military programme which they believe will deter American military aggression.

They are now trying to split the south Korea/American diplomatic ties. 

It's hardly rocket science.

I'm constantly confused by your take on North Korea.

You really think the intention is to split the long held ties between the South as the US? Would be absolutely insanity to assume they would be that stupid given the actions of the regime over the last few decades. 

 

If they are hoping for that they have no chance.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, MattP said:

You really think the intention is to split the long held ties between the South as the US? Would be absolutely insanity to assume they would be that stupid given the actions of the regime over the last few decades. 

 

If they are hoping for that they have no chance.

Of course that's what they're trying to do.

They may well have no chance but they're going to try. It's precisely why they've begun a charm offensive towards south Korea and invited their leaders to North Korea.

 

The fact you apparently can't see this rather obvious tactic is bizarre.

[Buce]

38 minutes ago, toddybad said:

They completed their military programme which they believe will deter American military aggression.

They are now trying to split the south Korea/American diplomatic ties. 

It's hardly rocket science.

I'm constantly confused by your take on North Korea.

 

Errrr...

[Guest MattP]

55 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Of course that's what they're trying to do.

They may well have no chance but they're going to try. It's precisely why they've begun a charm offensive towards south Korea and invited their leaders to North Korea.

 

The fact you apparently can't see this rather obvious tactic is bizarre.

This is honestly not an opinion I've heard and I must have read 10 articles on the situation over the last couple of days.

 

They've built nuclear weapons and spent the last few decades telling the South they are ready to obliterate them, I think it might be a bit late for a charm offensive

 

I think the theory it's actually a cry for help to be released from China is far more plausible.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, MattP said:

This is honestly not an opinion I've heard and I must have read 10 articles on the situation over the last couple of days.

 

They've built nuclear weapons and spent the last few decades telling the South they are ready to obliterate them, I think it might be a bit late for a charm offensive

 

I think the theory it's actually a cry for help to be released from China is far more plausible.

But China have supported and protected them for decades.

They've been threatening the us as their entire plan is deterrence. They've said it directly a number of times.

Honestly can't see where you're coming from on this at all. 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, toddybad said:

But China have supported and protected them for decades.

They've been threatening the us as their entire plan is deterrence. They've said it directly a number of times.

Honestly can't see where you're coming from on this at all. 

You'v completely missed the whole point of why I think they are crying for help.

[Jattdogg]

5 hours ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Kim's sister is rather lovely

Would ya give her your nuclear warhead

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, breadandcheese said:

They honey-potting us

What was it that Churchill said about "jaw-jaw"?

 

 

6 hours ago, MattP said:

The progress made over the last few months has been incredible.

 

I'm almost starting to think we've all called this wrong and the North Korean public aggression isn't actually tub tumping towards the US but a plea, a call for help to be released from the chains China has them in.

 

4 hours ago, toddybad said:

They completed their military programme which they believe will deter American military aggression.

They are now trying to split the south Korea/American diplomatic ties. 

It's hardly rocket science.

I'm constantly confused by your take on North Korea.

The motivations of the NK's on this one is an interesting thing to discuss. IMO it comes down to base principles again - they'll take whatever move is necessary to maintain the power that they have. If that means being isolationist and bellicose, so be it. If it means coming out into the international community and rapprochement, then so be it. The job of the world at large is to convince them that the latter is a better option.

 

Also, there's a strong hint of ethnic nationalism running through all of this, too - the NK's, in my view, don't want to destroy the SK people; why kill the people you want to rule? They believe that the Korean people should be as one, so they want to conquer, not obliterate. Have people noticed that the threats of total destruction are usually directed at those they see as interfering, viz. the US, rather than SK?

[Alf Bentley]

7 hours ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Kim's sister is rather lovely

 

I agree, but can you imagine having Kim Jong-Un as your brother-in-law, Seb (may I call you Seb? "Bellend" doesn't feel right).

 

Imagine, heaven forbid, that the marriage didn't work out. Getting nuked or assassinated at an airport is a high price to pay for romance with a lovely lady.

If a one-night stand is all you had in mind, her brother might not take that well, either.

 

Don't go there, Seb. Don't go to that Pyongyang bar to chat her up. 

[the fox]

32 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Imagine, heaven forbid, that the marriage didn't work out. Getting nuked or assassinated at an airport is a high price to pay for romance with a lovely lady.

If a one-night stand is all you had in mind, her brother might not take that well, either.

 

Don't go there, Seb. Don't go to that Pyongyang bar to chat her up. 

I can already imagine

 

Kim knows and now he's fuming so he launches a nuke.

 

Sebastian on top of the Big Ben tower shirtless with a bandana on his head rambo style while a nuke is coming his way.

Seb opens up an expensive assassins suitcase and whips out an old frying pan. He posses like a tennis player with his knees bent and the pan just behind his left shoulder while wearing a sh*t eating grin on his face and screams ""my backhand is immaculate! Don't believe me? just ask your sister!"

 

huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh haaaaaa *jimmy carr's laugh playing in background*.

 

 

Edited 11 February 2018 by the fox

[Guest]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

What was it that Churchill said about "jaw-jaw"?

 

 

 

The motivations of the NK's on this one is an interesting thing to discuss. IMO it comes down to base principles again - they'll take whatever move is necessary to maintain the power that they have. If that means being isolationist and bellicose, so be it. If it means coming out into the international community and rapprochement, then so be it. The job of the world at large is to convince them that the latter is a better option.

 

Also, there's a strong hint of ethnic nationalism running through all of this, too - the NK's, in my view, don't want to destroy the SK people; why kill the people you want to rule? They believe that the Korean people should be as one, so they want to conquer, not obliterate. Have people noticed that the threats of total destruction are usually directed at those they see as interfering, viz. the US, rather than SK?

Exactly. Their present warmth towards SK is for the purpose of a claasic case of divide and rule. 

[leicsmac]

38 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Exactly. Their present warmth towards SK is for the purpose of a claasic case of divide and rule. 

Well yes, but if the purpose is to distract from a possible military action I can't see it working - the US and SK aren't going to buy that.

 

And you'd think the NK's themselves know that, so perhaps there's another reason for them doing it, too.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Well yes, but if the purpose is to distract from a possible military action I can't see it working - the US and SK aren't going to buy that.

 

And you'd think the NK's themselves know that, so perhaps there's another reason for them doing it, too.

I don't foresee military action by anyone against anyone. I think they're just trying to squeeze the us out of Korea. 

[Rogstanley]

6 hours ago, toddybad said:

But China have supported and protected them for decades.

They've been threatening the us as their entire plan is deterrence. They've said it directly a number of times.

Honestly can't see where you're coming from on this at all. 

It’s “let search the world for something we can try and credit Donald Trump for (and still fail”, I think.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

It’s “let search the world for something we can try and credit Donald Trump for (and still fail”, I think.

It's like he picks the most benevolent team and then invents reasons they're the best. A few months ago when he tried to convince everyone labour were more likely to split over Europe than the Tories 

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, toddybad said:

I don't foresee military action by anyone against anyone. I think they're just trying to squeeze the us out of Korea. 

That's possible.

 

To be quite honest, Korea being the plaything of the superpowers ever since they decided to carve it in two to suit themselves is one of the great crimes of the 20th Century. I'm just hoping a solution can be drawn up by the Koreans, for the Koreans, that would mean the North opens up to the world a bit more without hundreds of thousands of people having to die.

[Guest MattP]

Quite a good read from Matthew Syed in The Times today, he's been a part of what we are seeing now and looks back with embarrassment at how naive he was.

Quote

 

I can remember the feeling of warmth when South and North Korean athletes competed for the first time under a unity flag. It was at the World Table Tennis Championships in Chiba, Japan, in 1991, and from my position at the back of the tribune, it was possible to see spectators from both nations cheering, clapping and stamping their feet.

 

The story was, even at the time, remarkable. Just four years earlier, North Korean operatives had masterminded the mid-air bombing of Korean Air Flight 858, killing all 115 on board. North Korea had boycotted the 1988 Seoul Olympics and threatened that more atrocities would overshadow the Games. They had become ever more hostile, with those south of the border living in fear.

 

Then, just weeks before the 1991 World Championships, players on both sides were told of a wholly unexpected political development. The two nations were to play as a unified team for the first time since the Korean War, four decades earlier. Table tennis seemed a perfect vehicle for the policy, with North and South each boasting players in the world’s top ten.

 

Chiba thus became an unlikely symbol of political rapprochement. Those of us looking on felt waves of hope when the combined female team won the title, defeating China in one of the great shocks of the modern era. I remember chatting to Hyun Jung-hwa, the top South Korean player, who had made an unlikely friendship with Ri Pun-hui, her North Korean counterpart. “I always knew that sport could influence politics,” she said. I couldn’t help agreeing.

 

Today, however, I look back with embarrassment at my naivety. The 1991 World Table Tennis Championships did not herald a thawing of relations but a chance for a psychopathic regime to gain goodwill, not to mention a cheque from South Korea, in return for precious little. Within three years, the regime, with its callous ideological emphasis on collective farming, had caused mass starvation. Some sources estimate that between 1994 and 1998 more than two million North Koreans died after the ending of Soviet food subsidies.

 

And this is why I look at the combined South and North Korean ice hockey team at the Winter Olympic Games in Pyeongchang not with hope but with scepticism. I see Kim Yo-jong, the sister of Kim Jong-un, smiling for the cameras and glimpse a woman in fear of sororicide. I see not a reaching out from the North, but the dynamics of cold political calculation.

 

And when I look at that contingent of North Korean fans, cheering in unison, smiling from ear to ear, I am not charmed, but chilled. I see a group of hostages, every one of whom has been warned that a failure to grin, to applaud, to shout to the rafters, will be met with devastating retribution for their families back home, most likely in the gulags where so many thousands have perished at the hands of the regime. This is not collective joy; it is the grotesque choreography of totalitarian terror.

Every now and again, sport can act as a catalyst for political reform. Perhaps the most famous example was the ping-pong diplomacy of the early 1970s, when Richard Nixon’s flirtation with Mao Zedong was facilitated by a trip by the American table tennis team to China after the 1971 World Championships in Japan. Nixon’s national security adviser Henry Kissinger travelled to Beijing a little later, setting the stage for Nixon himself. The president called it “the week that changed the world”.

 

In the case of North Korea, there is little such hope. Kim’s principal objective is to sustain absolute power for as long as possible. He executed Jang Song-thaek, his uncle and mentor, and likely ordered the assassination of Kim Jong-nam, his half-brother, who was sprayed with a nerve agent before boarding a plane in Kuala Lumpur. In total, 140 military and army officials have been purged. Power corrupts, but in the absence of checks and balances, it also incubates psychopathy.

Even the North Korean athletes at these Games should be pitied. They are given lives of comparative comfort to reduce the probability of defection, a prospect that the regime regards with horror. This is why the secret police infiltrate their lives in the build-up to competition, why they are watched like hawks from the moment they arrive, and why they sit apart from other athletes in the village or competition zones.

 

It is also why they will be met with persecution on their return, even if they have triumphed on behalf of their divine leader. As Kim Joo-il, a former military commander who defected from North Korea in 2005, told me before the London Olympics: “Returning athletes face six months of debriefing and are required to sign non-disclosure agreements, which forbid them from discussing their experiences. Failure to comply is not merely punishable for the athlete but also their extended families. They face the threat of being sent to a political prison.”

 

I will never forget trying to chat to North Korean players at a table tennis competition in the late 1990s. I hoped to set up a training session for later that day, something that is common in international events, where competitors from different countries practise together. It is a way of learning fresh things, sparring against new styles. The moment I stepped onto the court, however, I could see that something was wrong.

 

The players instantly looked to a member of the secret police masquerading as a coach. In faltering English, he made it clear that they would not interact. I smiled at the players, hoping to convey friendship, but couldn’t help noticing the fear in their eyes. These young men and women had been propagandised since birth, taught that the West is the enemy, and that a sociopathic dynasty, which had impoverished and enslaved them, are divine benefactors. No wonder they looked confused.

 

I hardly slept that night. With a clarity that haunted me for weeks, I knew that I had come face to face with an approximation of the nightmare imagined in George Orwell’s 1984. One, of course, hopes that a glorified game of hockey on ice will lead to a reduction in tension on the Korean peninsula, and a transition from North Korean absolutism. But, in the absence of a more pointed impetus, internal or external, I seriously doubt it.

 

 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Quite a good read from Matthew Syed in The Times today, he's been a part of what we are seeing now and looks back with embarrassment at how naive he was.

 

How depressingly, unpleasantly cynical. And also accurate, in most places.

 

I have no doubt that the NK athletes in these Games are in fear for their lives, that the current NK regime would do anything as long as it maintained their power and what happens up there is entirely reminiscent of 1984, as well as us having been here before with respect to combined sporting teams.

 

However, if Mr Syed wanted to do more than stating what the facts of the matter are, he might suggest his solution to the problem as well as merely highlighting what the problem is.