Trav Le Bleu Posted 19 September 2017 Posted 19 September 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: If we could do that it would be great. They would shoot the planes down though and China would stop us before we even tried. Use missiles then...
Guest MattP Posted 19 September 2017 Posted 19 September 2017 Just now, Trav Le Bleu said: Use missiles then... Well if we are going to do that it had better be quick, another 12 months and the Kim dynasty may have secured their future and the imprisonment of the North Korean people for at least our lifetimes.
Wymsey Posted 19 September 2017 Author Posted 19 September 2017 What will North Korea actually achieve economically as a nation if they continue with this, despite ignoring pleas to stop what they're doing? Firing on US land would of course result in mass retaliation (and don't think Trump is just saying it for mind games), which ultimately could cause huge damage to NK's national defence and its long-suffering (though most are forced brain-washed to support this regime) citizens.
leicsmac Posted 19 September 2017 Posted 19 September 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: Well if we are going to do that it had better be quick, another 12 months and the Kim dynasty may have secured their future and the imprisonment of the North Korean people for at least our lifetimes. I actually think this isn't true - even with nuclear warheads on missiles the Norks know they can't use them, as they know what happens if they do. I thinm it actually doesn't change the situation much. Playing K-Pop at the border continuously as the SK's do is brilliant trolling of the highest order btw. 1 hour ago, Wymeswold fox said: What will North Korea actually achieve economically as a nation if they continue with this, despite ignoring pleas to stop what they're doing? Firing on US land would of course result in mass retaliation (and don't think Trump is just saying it for mind games), which ultimately could cause huge damage to NK's national defence and its long-suffering (though most are forced brain-washed to support this regime) citizens. Not a lot tbh, they think it will secure a decent power base, but it doesn't actually change the game much tbh - they still get curb-stomped if they cross the line.
Lionator Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 9 hours ago, Wymeswold fox said: What will North Korea actually achieve economically as a nation if they continue with this, despite ignoring pleas to stop what they're doing? Firing on US land would of course result in mass retaliation (and don't think Trump is just saying it for mind games), which ultimately could cause huge damage to NK's national defence and its long-suffering (though most are forced brain-washed to support this regime) citizens. It seems like it's purely about survial for the Kim dynasty, if he gave a damn about economics then his people wouldn't be starving.
Jattdogg Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 Might be time for china to assassinate this knob end. War is not a good choice but regime change is needed in NK. The only problem is all the people (senior officials) who would fill the void have been brain washed and will most definitely continue the NK way in some form. Or you could hope they wouldnt be that way. Thats a big gamble.
Guest MattP Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 11 hours ago, leicsmac said: I actually think this isn't true - even with nuclear warheads on missiles the Norks know they can't use them, as they know what happens if they do. I thinm it actually doesn't change the situation much. It means we never have a realistic chance of removing the regime, which the World quite frankly has an obligation to do.
Nick Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 23 minutes ago, MattP said: It means we never have a realistic chance of removing the regime, which the World quite frankly has an obligation to do. Alright Tony, calm down. Start with war on that basis and where does it stop? We can't put boots on the ground in every Narnia because the Snow Queen's a crazy.
Buce Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 30 minutes ago, MattP said: It means we never have a realistic chance of removing the regime, which the World quite frankly has an obligation to do. That went well in Iraq and Syria, didn't it?
Guest MattP Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 2 minutes ago, Buce said: That went well in Iraq and Syria, didn't it? Well yes it did in Iraq, we invaded and he was gone within months - the problem was the aftermath, no planning or preparation for that and it created a disaster. No idea why you have mentioned Syria, we didn't at any point try to remove the regime there, we didn't even get a vote past parliament to try.
leicsmac Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 47 minutes ago, MattP said: It means we never have a realistic chance of removing the regime, which the World quite frankly has an obligation to do. As others have said, interventions of that type haven't exactly got a good track record in recent times, and with or without nuclear armament any Korean conflict would make Iraq and Afghanistan look like a pleasant memory in terms of body count. Regime change has to come from within there. It may take a damn long time and standing by is going to be pretty terrible to watch, but in the long run it's the option that quite frankly results in the least overall deaths. 1
Buce Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 32 minutes ago, MattP said: Well yes it did in Iraq, we invaded and he was gone within months - the problem was the aftermath, no planning or preparation for that and it created a disaster. No idea why you have mentioned Syria, we didn't at any point try to remove the regime there, we didn't even get a vote past parliament to try. My bad, I meant Libya.
Trav Le Bleu Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 4 hours ago, Swan Lesta said: Alright Tony, calm down. Start with war on that basis and where does it stop? We can't put boots on the ground in every Narnia because the Snow Queen's a crazy. Calm down Aslan. 2
Mike Oxlong Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 Would like to see this settled by a dance off The Donald v KJU
Jattdogg Posted 20 September 2017 Posted 20 September 2017 4 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said: Would like to see this settled by a dance off The Donald v KJU that would be amazing
Guest Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 On 19/09/2017 at 22:55, MattP said: Well if we are going to do that it had better be quick, another 12 months and the Kim dynasty may have secured their future and the imprisonment of the North Korean people for at least our lifetimes. Nothing to do with us. We happily ignore dictatorships around the world. Who, other than you, is even contemplating this being a reason for action? Simon Jenkins, bang on the money about the futility of acting as a us poodle for the last 20 years: Ignore Trump’s lies. North Korea is no threat to Britain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/20/trump-lies-north-korea-threat-britain-kim-jong-un-china?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
tom27111 Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 6 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said: Would like to see this settled by a dance off The Donald v KJU We'd be doomed, he'd just crack out the Gangnam Style moves.
Lionator Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 7 hours ago, toddybad said: Nothing to do with us. We happily ignore dictatorships around the world. Who, other than you, is even contemplating this being a reason for action? Simon Jenkins, bang on the money about the futility of acting as a us poodle for the last 20 years: Ignore Trump’s lies. North Korea is no threat to Britain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/20/trump-lies-north-korea-threat-britain-kim-jong-un-china?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Michael Fallon's speech last week suggests they are as North Korea's ICBM could reach London. Now if there was a conflict and our politicians once again dragged us into it then that would be beyond unforgivable, borderline treason as it'd be so far against national interest.
Guest MattP Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, toddybad said: Nothing to do with us. We happily ignore dictatorships around the world. Who, other than you, is even contemplating this being a reason for action? Simon Jenkins, bang on the money about the futility of acting as a us poodle for the last 20 years: Ignore Trump’s lies. North Korea is no threat to Britain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/20/trump-lies-north-korea-threat-britain-kim-jong-un-china?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Which other dictator imprisons his own citizens in the way Kim does? Even Cubans can at least apply to go away now. Edited 21 September 2017 by MattP
Guest Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 1 hour ago, Lionator said: Michael Fallon's speech last week suggests they are as North Korea's ICBM could reach London. Now if there was a conflict and our politicians once again dragged us into it then that would be beyond unforgivable, borderline treason as it'd be so far against national interest. Just because an icbm could reach london doesn't mean one would ever be heading that way. Why we feel the need to put ourselves in the firing line when we're not to begin with is beyond me. 43 minutes ago, MattP said: Which other dictator imprisons his own citizens in the way Kim does? Even Cubans can at least apply to go away now. I repeat. What the **** has it got to do with us? I've said before, Russia, China and the US are all involved. We hold no sway whatsoever.
Guest MattP Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 5 minutes ago, toddybad said: I repeat. What the **** has it got to do with us? I've said before, Russia, China and the US are all involved. We hold no sway whatsoever. What the **** has it got to do with us? We are a permanent member of the UN security council, are you suggesting we totally shirk our responsibility to the World?
Finnegan Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 15 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said: Would like to see this settled by a dance off The Donald v KJU You've obviously never seen a Korean dance troupe. 1
Guest Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 41 minutes ago, MattP said: What the **** has it got to do with us? We are a permanent member of the UN security council, are you suggesting we totally shirk our responsibility to the World? Are you suggesting we should intervene in every country whose people aren't free to elect their leaders? I'd love you to try to explain when it became a responsibility of the UN to effect regime change. There is no civil war nor genocide in NK and no UN resolution would ever be passed to seek regime change. No UN resolution will be passed allowing any military action. If NK was stupid enough to strike first we'd not have the time to get involved. If the US strikes first then it is a war crime that we should absolutely not be involved in.
Guest MattP Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 41 minutes ago, toddybad said: Are you suggesting we should intervene in every country whose people aren't free to elect their leaders? I'd love you to try to explain when it became a responsibility of the UN to effect regime change. There is no civil war nor genocide in NK and no UN resolution would ever be passed to seek regime change. No UN resolution will be passed allowing any military action. If NK was stupid enough to strike first we'd not have the time to get involved. If the US strikes first then it is a war crime that we should absolutely not be involved in. No, I was just making the point that there is no dictator comparable to the current North Korean leader. It isn't the responsibility of the UN to effect regime change, it is however the responsibility of the UN to protect populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, some of these things are certainly happening there. There actually are some reports that people have been genocided in North Korea - http://time.com/2896976/north-korea-genocide/ I agree with you on the last point though.
Buce Posted 21 September 2017 Posted 21 September 2017 20 minutes ago, MattP said: No, I was just making the point that there is no dictator comparable to the current North Korean leader. It isn't the responsibility of the UN to effect regime change, it is however the responsibility of the UN to protect populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, some of these things are certainly happening there. There actually are some reports that people have been genocided in North Korea - http://time.com/2896976/north-korea-genocide/ I agree with you on the last point though. The irony of the UK standing up against war crimes escapes you then? Remember Iraq?
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