Is Shakespeare the right man for the job?

[Lestoh1]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

You can do all of those things and still lose you know?

 

The much lauded Burnley did those things and faced far more shots, more on target, more corners against, a shit load more possession. Which takes me back to the point of fine margins. On another day they could have been mullered, yet people are holding them up as some kind of beacon of what's possible.

 

I'm not overly happy with how things are going, not convinced about CS. But quite frankly we've got pretty much the amount of point I thought we'd have when the fixtures were announced.

 

Do I think we could make it more difficult for teams by being as boring as fook? Yes, I think we'd pick up more points. But I'd rather watch games like Liverpool and Arsenal and be excited by the game, rather than scraping a 0-0 and taking two extra points whilst being completely bored to feck watching the oppo play it around us whilst we have 20% possession and don't get out of our half.

Ah ok. Youd rather lose with style.

 

Renders the rest of your post irrelevant.

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, Lestoh1 said:

Ah ok. Youd rather lose with style.

 

Renders the rest of your post irrelevant.

I'd rather be entertained. Go and ask West Brom fans how happy they were last year watching god awful football, they finished high up the table but were utterly miserable.

 

If I thought we'd be in any trouble at all, then yeah scrap for a point. But I don't think we will, I think we'll be midtable. So I'd rather finish 13th and watch some exciting stuff that sit through utter guff week in week out and finish 9th.

[Lestoh1]

Just now, Babylon said:

I'd rather be entertained. Go and ask West Brom fans how happy they were last year watching god awful football, they finished high up the table but were utterly miserable.

 

If I thought we'd be in any trouble at all, then yeah scrap for a point. But I don't think we will, I think we'll be midtable. So I'd rather finish 13th and watch some exciting stuff that sit through utter guff week in week out and finish 9th.

As long as you realise youre in sport to win and realise youre both in the minority and also talking like a plank, then youre entitled to your view.

[STUHILL]

I would like to see him be a bit more adventurous. Even if just for a game, just to show us he has the balls to shake things up.

 

His line-ups and tactics are painfully predictable. We have a squad full of talented players now. He can afford to experiment a little. 

 

I really think he missed a chance with the cup game against Liverpool. Yes I know we won, but only after he was forced into a change and Liverpool were unable to make those chances count. Pairing Ulloa and Slimani together was very odd. Would love him to explain his thinking behind that. A red flag indeed. 

 

The players are definitely playing for him though. Effort and desire is there still, but I just hope he starts making some bold decisions and not sticking to the old system and players no matter what.. just in the hope of recreating some 2015/16 form. It might win him some games, but I think the issues are there for all to see and he has to be pro-active, especially if we want to really push to be a top 8 club. 

 

 

[Babylon]

1 minute ago, Lestoh1 said:

As long as you realise youre in sport to win and realise youre both in the minority and also talking like a plank, then youre entitled to your view.

Congrats on taking a straw poll so quickly, would love to see your results.

 

We aren't winning any trophies in the league, you don't get a trophy for scraping a 0-0 draw against a big club.  Our range is 7th - 14th. So when you think you know what the end result is likely to be, then I'll go for a bit of entertainment.

[Lestoh1]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Congrats on taking a straw poll so quickly, would love to see your results.

 

We aren't winning any trophies in the league, you don't get a trophy for scraping a 0-0 draw against a big club.  Our range is 7th - 14th. So when you think you know what the end result is likely to be, then I'll go for a bit of entertainment.

Youre the sort of "i have to have the last word" kind of guy evidently. Bye

[Col city fan]

33 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I'd rather be entertained. Go and ask West Brom fans how happy they were last year watching god awful football, they finished high up the table but were utterly miserable.

 

If I thought we'd be in any trouble at all, then yeah scrap for a point. But I don't think we will, I think we'll be midtable. So I'd rather finish 13th and watch some exciting stuff that sit through utter guff week in week out and finish 9th.

You only had to watch West Brom THIS season in that second half against Arsenal. They genuinely did not look like they gave a shite if they scored, or not..

It was unadventurous football at its very best.

I have no feeling for West Brom whatsoever but I guess the shame for their fans is that they do have some decent attacking players. A game like Arsenal.. They just showed so little intent.

[CosbehFox]

53 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

I would like to see him be a bit more adventurous. Even if just for a game, just to show us he has the balls to shake things up.

 

His line-ups and tactics are painfully predictable. We have a squad full of talented players now. He can afford to experiment a little. 

 

I really think he missed a chance with the cup game against Liverpool. Yes I know we won, but only after he was forced into a change and Liverpool were unable to make those chances count. Pairing Ulloa and Slimani together was very odd. Would love him to explain his thinking behind that. A red flag indeed. 

 

The players are definitely playing for him though. Effort and desire is there still, but I just hope he starts making some bold decisions and not sticking to the old system and players no matter what.. just in the hope of recreating some 2015/16 form. It might win him some games, but I think the issues are there for all to see and he has to be pro-active, especially if we want to really push to be a top 8 club. 

 

 

A fair assessment there. 

 

I think it's only now though we have a squad with fully fit players capable of experimenting. 

[SecretPro]

2 hours ago, Babylon said:

You can do all of those things and still lose you know?

 

The much lauded Burnley did those things and faced far more shots, more on target, more  against, a shit load more possession. Which takes me back to the point of fine margins. On another day they could have been mullered, yet people are holding them up as some kind of beacon of what's possible.

 

I'm not overly happy with how things are going, not convinced about CS. But quite frankly we've got pretty much the amount of point I thought we'd have when the fixtures were announced.

 

Do I think we could make it more difficult for teams by being as boring as fook? Yes, I think we'd pick up more points. But I'd rather watch games like Liverpool and Arsenal and be excited by the game, rather than scraping a 0-0 and taking two extra points whilst being completely bored to feck watching the oppo play it around us whilst we have 20% possession and don't get out of our half.

We are not exciting to watch because of the quality of football, in fact we are exciting to watch because the football is so shoddy that it's played at rocket pace like pinball on crack and sometimes we can put in an OK counter attack. It's exciting to watch because it's end to end. Our actual football is easily some of the worst in the league, it's utter dilge. Imagine paying players 50-100k a week that can't string two passes together, win headers, win second balls or create anything? No need to imagine with Leicester city. In fact, I'm not finding the football all that exciting to watch anyway this season; very predictable, very unambitious and literally no plan except 'play on the counter and if we go behind, lump it as much as possible'. I don't want to guess whether we can survive playing this way or not, but I know we definitely cannot progress. Some of it at times is genuinely atrocious. 

Edited 27 September 2017 by SecretPro

[Lestoh1]

Just now, SecretPro said:

We are not exciting to watch because of the quality of football, in fact we are exciting to watch because the football is so shoddy that it's played at rocket pace like pinball in crack and sometimes we can put in an OK counter attack. It's exciting to watch because it's end to end. Our actual football is easily some of the worst in the league, it's utter dilge. Imagine paying players 50-100k a week that can't string two passes together, win headers, win second balls or create anything? No need to imagine with Leicester city. In fact, I'm not finding the football all that excellent to watch anyway this season; very predictable, very unambitious and literally no plan except 'play on the counter and if we go behind, lump it as much as possible'. I don't want to guess whether we can survive playing this way or not, but I know we definitely cannot progress. Some of it at times is genuinely atrocious. 

Correct.

[orangecity23]

3 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

See Stoke their results against Manchester United and Arsenal also. 

See Stoke their result against Chelsea.

[CosbehFox]

48 minutes ago, orangecity23 said:

See Stoke their result against Chelsea.

My point was in support of babylon's post. Those two results for Stoke were a fluke to the normal pattern. Despite the 'hard place to go' cliche, Stoke's record against the top teams is awful 

[orangecity23]

Just now, Cardiff_Fox said:

My point was in support of babylon's post. Those two results for Stoke were a fluke to the normal pattern. Despite the 'hard place to go' cliche, Stoke's record against the top teams is awful 

Oops. Sorry, didn't read enough posts back. I couldn't agree more, Stoke were quite flukey in both those games, and demonstrated that by getting pantsed against Chelsea.

[Ric Flair]

23 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

You've got 23 thumbs up because this is all just so right.

 

I've just read an article about Shakespeare commenting on how Iborra is now getting much sharper, how he has been adapting to the pace of our Premiership game etc, this is all good news of course. However, it's the next bit that wrankles with me when he says how Iborra,  albeit he's played different roles, he's used to playing in a midfield 3 and that there having to teach him positioning and how to play in our 442. Firstly, for the many that believe that our players may be best suited to a different formation, think on, because by the sounds of it there aren't going to be many changes soon. Basically it doesn't matter whether your a 3 times cup winning Seville player who excels playing in a three (or any other new aquisition for that matter, whatever they're good at ), we're going to cramp your style and shoehorn you into that one 442 system we know and we're going to damn well make it work! I thought this man had been a coach, is there only 442? What happened to all the other formations, can't he teach them? Have we forever got to stay in a time warp regardless of what players we've got and their capabilities are?

Exactly mate! Either be open to changin systems as we've clearly not progressed and adapted like other teams have since our shock title win, or only recruit players with proven attributes that can play 4-4-2. We sign predominantly defensive midfielders that aren't mobile or dynamic enough to play in a midfield pair, even Ndidi is having problems at times being overrun. Only Kante has been able to do it at ease and Drinkwater dovetailed nicely. Inler, Mendy, Amartey, Iborra they all have or look like they'll struggle but we refuse to change and expect them to fit in. In the meantime we ship shit loads of goals, leave gaping holes in front of our defence and seldom get anything against the elite teams where 4-4-2 is just absurd.

 

Madness

[Great Boos Up]

It all lies with the Thais. Pearson hired on previous results and sacked twice on principals. Ranieri hired on experience and accomplished the impossible and then sacked on results without principal. Shakey stepped in with no experience and got results but his permanent appointment lingered. There is only one common denominator. Results.

Premier League only for them IMO and if next weekend is a loss and we're in the relegation zone; buttons will be pressed without hesitation regardless of what you or I think and Appleton is our manager next week.

An extra point so far would have secured his safety but he has put pressure on himself. Lose and it's game over.

[NotTheMarketLeader]

On 26/09/2017 at 20:48, volpeazzurro said:

You've got 23 thumbs up because this is all just so right.

 

I've just read an article about Shakespeare commenting on how Iborra is now getting much sharper, how he has been adapting to the pace of our Premiership game etc, this is all good news of course. However, it's the next bit that wrankles with me when he says how Iborra,  albeit he's played different roles, he's used to playing in a midfield 3 and that there having to teach him positioning and how to play in our 442. Firstly, for the many that believe that our players may be best suited to a different formation, think on, because by the sounds of it there aren't going to be many changes soon. Basically it doesn't matter whether your a 3 times cup winning Seville player who excels playing in a three (or any other new aquisition for that matter, whatever they're good at ), we're going to cramp your style and shoehorn you into that one 442 system we know and we're going to damn well make it work! I thought this man had been a coach, is there only 442? What happened to all the other formations, can't he teach them? Have we forever got to stay in a time warp regardless of what players we've got and their capabilities are?

****ing hell Volpe.

 

If that's what's going to happen, it's going to be another wasted season what with one thing and another, and Shakey doesn't want to help himself it seems.

 

He's been in our 'cocoon' for too long maybe;notwithstanding his spell at Hull.

 

Different ideas are needed I thought when he was appointed, and it looks like he hasn't got any, which was my initial fear in him getting the gig. 

Edited 27 September 2017 by NotTheMarketLeader

[Babylon]

4 hours ago, SecretPro said:

We are not exciting to watch because of the quality of football, in fact we are exciting to watch because the football is so shoddy that it's played at rocket pace like pinball on crack and sometimes we can put in an OK counter attack. It's exciting to watch because it's end to end. Our actual football is easily some of the worst in the league, it's utter dilge. Imagine paying players 50-100k a week that can't string two passes together, win headers, win second balls or create anything? No need to imagine with Leicester city. In fact, I'm not finding the football all that exciting to watch anyway this season; very predictable, very unambitious and literally no plan except 'play on the counter and if we go behind, lump it as much as possible'. I don't want to guess whether we can survive playing this way or not, but I know we definitely cannot progress. Some of it at times is genuinely atrocious. 

Who said we played top quality football? I said I'd rather watch our game against Liverpool than play like Burnley and scrape a point by doing nothing but sit back.

 

People keep banging on about Burnley all the god damn time. Yet they'd be moaning quick sharp if we were attempting to gain points like that.

[SecretPro]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Who said we played top quality football? I said I'd rather watch our game against Liverpool than play like Burnley and scrape a point by doing nothing but sit back.

 

People keep banging on about Burnley all the god damn time. Yet they'd be moaning quick sharp if we were attempting to gain points like that.

But we do have 20% possession and do **** all.

 

The possession thing never bothered me before, in fact it was great in the title winning season because the moment we got the ball, we passed like Barcelona, skinned defenders for fun and outpaced anyone and everyone. But, this season and last, its starting to grate now how one trick pony we have become. Now we just bumble about giving possession away for 80% of the game through complete lack of football awareness, bereft of ideas, clumsiness and panic. For the 20% possession we have, I reckon about 1% of that is useful, or doesn't involve someone lumping it or giving it away on the second pass.

 

Heart was racing watching the Liverpool match for two reasons; 1. Willing with every ounce of strength to get back in the game, and 2. with rage watching multi-million pound footballers make Sunday League look clean and crisp. The ups and downs of every moment, like 'yes, we've got the ball back, move it forward c'mon....oh, for ****s sake, why the feck has that bounced off of your knee? Oooo, thats it, compose yourself, look for the pass, yes that's it.... oh. yes. pump it long to Mr Nobody or Mr I'm a professional footballer but I've forgotten what my head is for. That might seem like excitement, with all those mixed emotions. Hell, the Liverpool game was probably super exciting for neutrals, but for me, watching the team I love that we've recently pumped millions into in the drive for progress play like they've just tied their laces for the first time. That's not excitement for me.

 

And no, I don't want us to be boring in the same sense as Burnley or West Brom, but given the 'ambition' and the money we have spent, I would like to see A. some points on the board and B. some fecking football.

 

EDIT. I must add, I'm not in the immediate out brigade for Shaky, i've stated previously see where we are at come the end of October when we've had a more natural run. I suspect we can get better if we utilise the right players and tactics. If come the end of October, early November and we are struggling then I think a decision should be made. I don't always like this idea of 'seeing where we are at come Christmas'. Id rather be proactive than put things off, especially when there is so much at stake.

 

SECOND EDIT. Just to add again that I'm not buying some of these excuses. I mean seriously, Iborra is having to be shown how to play in a 4-4-2? Excuses like 'what do you expect with Andy King and Ndidi in the middle?' I just can't accept - if highly paid professional, international, footballers cannot adapt, or in fact just pass, then what the hell are they doing in the premier league and in our squad in the first place?

 

The 'freak' season none of us wanted to be freak, we knew it was freak but at least hoped it would be the start of progress, development, ambition. We are currently playing to a standard comparable to our first season back. It's a shame to have to admit that - errors in that summer after winning the title have been dogging us since. I suspect some people might think this is a pretty damning and harsh assessment, especially considering the opposition, but barring the Arsenal game can anybody hand on heart say that we've done enough? I don't think so.

Edited 27 September 2017 by SecretPro

[Trav Le Bleu]

7 hours ago, Lestoh1 said:

Ah ok. Youd rather lose with style.

 

Renders the rest of your post irrelevant.

Go support West Brom?

[Dan LCFC]

On 9/26/2017 at 08:20, Ric Flair said:

Or is it that all the signings we make that struggle is because they aren't suited to our 4-4-2 game. The likes of Mendy, Kramaric, Inler, Slimani and I'm sure Iborra and Iheanacho are all accustomed to playing a more possession based style of football that allows them to get on the ball and dictate play. For Kramaric he wasn't a player who pressed or was particularly explosive so he looked a little limited and Slimani is a classic example of not suiting our style of play. He on paper appears to be very good in the air but only at attacking crosses where he's found space off the defenders, when he's up against a defender for a long ball he's pretty ineffective which is odd but there you go.

 

Our rags to riches success with a team of scruffs has been magical but it's becoming quite clear that we're losing our grip on it and the players we bring in to supposedly improve just don't settle in to the team, we should be looking at why and if there's another approach we can take that's better. Plus, I do believe we're no longer playing the same way we did in our title winning season. We put together some exceptional passages of play where we retained the ball and opened up teams like a tin of beans but now we are no longer interested at pressing from the front, nor do we want to put together any passing moves. It's all about getting the ball lumped up and trying to win the 2nd balls, a disturbing tactical approach to take in this day and age at this level.

 

Our club talks about how we're buying young players for the future to build a lasting dynasty but if you look at Ndidi, Chilwell, Gray, Iheanacho, Maguire and a couple of others I've probably missed I'd say every one of them is crying out for being in a formation that's not 4-4-2 with the style of play selected as " treat the ball like it's a red hot potato ". I think it's the old guard of Morgan, Simpson, Huth, Albrighton and possibly Vardy that might be resistant to change, which is why when we have their mate as a manager who's vastly inexperienced it's clear to see he's shown absolutely no identity to what his managing style might be, he's just keeping things exactly the way they were before and that's a dangerous act.

That's a very, very good post and it's hard to argue with any of it. The point about the signings who haven't fitted in is very true and I always think if a player is competent in say Spain, Germany etc... then they're absolutely capable of being competent here and if they do fail, it's as much on the team as that player.

 

But at the same time I think it's one of those things that may take time - although it's very easy to argue there has been little development in any other style either. I do think Silva is a crucial miss but I think even without him, we are surely capable of churning out better than what we have been doing.

 

Shakespeare was a breath of fresh air when he arrived, he got us playing right to our strengths again. I question why we've stopped. Why did we not get straight at Huddersfield and Liverpool?

[Bunyip]

12 hours ago, Lestoh1 said:

Youre the sort of "i have to have the last word" kind of guy evidently. Bye

He normally does on here, and then get's you banned. Lost count of the times that's happened. 

[Col city fan]

Had a long chat about this with mi mate last night. A fellow season ticket holder.

We pretty much both agreed if he continues to play a 442, particularly away from home, with the personnel we have now, he's gotta go.

It is abundantly clear that the 442 worked so well because we had Kante and Drinkwater. Together they enabled it to function fantastically.

We don't have either of them anymore. We must stop living in the past and move onto more suitable formations.

Eg. Iborra is skilful, but unfit and slow. To play him necessitates a 3 man midfield.

[STUHILL]

44 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Had a long chat about this with mi mate last night. A fellow season ticket holder.

We pretty much both agreed if he continues to play a 442, particularly away from home, with the personnel we have now, he's gotta go.

It is abundantly clear that the 442 worked so well because we had Kante and Drinkwater. Together they enabled it to function fantastically.

We don't have either of them anymore. We must stop living in the past and move onto more suitable formations.

Eg. Iborra is skilful, but unfit and slow. To play him necessitates a 3 man midfield.

Trying to live and recreate the past success is exactly what he and maybe even the player's have become guilty of. 

 

Kante was as many pundits and fans described, like having 2 men. We essentially played with 3 in midfield with the amount of energy he gave us. 

 

It has been evident for some time now, that having a midfield 2 without Kante, is just a recipe for being completely over run, as well as having to bypass the midfield with long, hopeful balls. 

 

We now have a squad with a number of decent ball players, and so we can afford to test 3 in midfield. 

 

In my opinion, Okazaki is only useful due to him making our 4-4-2 work, otherwise his goal contribution and assists are generally quite low. Therefore, I think sacraficing him so we can have a midfield 3 makes a lot of sense to me. 

 

I know people are reluctant to try a 3 at the back, so how about we keep the back 4 the same, but look to something like this:

 

---------------------Kasper------------------

Simpson---Morgan-----Maguire---Fuchs

---------------N'didi-------Iborra-------------

Mahrez---------Iheanacho-----------Gray

----------------------Vardy-------------------

 

Perhaps without seeing much of Iheanacho yet, that role may be a big ask, but I could see Silva also being very effective there (if he ever signs!)

[Col city fan]

36 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

Trying to live and recreate the past success is exactly what he and maybe even the player's have become guilty of. 

 

Kante was as many pundits and fans described, like having 2 men. We essentially played with 3 in midfield with the amount of energy he gave us. 

 

It has been evident for some time now, that having a midfield 2 without Kante, is just a recipe for being completely over run, as well as having to bypass the midfield with long, hopeful balls. 

 

We now have a squad with a number of decent ball players, and so we can afford to test 3 in midfield. 

 

In my opinion, Okazaki is only useful due to him making our 4-4-2 work, otherwise his goal contribution and assists are generally quite low. Therefore, I think sacraficing him so we can have a midfield 3 makes a lot of sense to me. 

 

I know people are reluctant to try a 3 at the back, so how about we keep the back 4 the same, but look to something like this:

 

---------------------Kasper------------------

Simpson---Morgan-----Maguire---Fuchs

---------------N'didi-------Iborra-------------

Mahrez---------Iheanacho-----------Gray

----------------------Vardy-------------------

 

Perhaps without seeing much of Iheanacho yet, that role may be a big ask, but I could see Silva also being very effective there (if he ever signs!)

Mate, you must have heard our conversation...

 

[CosbehFox]

For the record we could play any formation and any style, we'd still have similar possession stats against the teams we've faced so far