Is Shakespeare the right man for the job?

[Ted Maul]

I don't think we'll be anywhere near relegation. It's pretty rare that clubs like ours are in that position in the modern era, and historically it's one of the most healthy positions we have ever been in. In that sense, he's perfectly adequate for the job.

 

However, the fans, players and (presumably) owners have got a taste for success and there's so much more up for grabs this season. In my opinion, 7th and a probable place in Europe are available for whoever gets their act together out of Everton, Southampton, West Ham and us. I don't think Shakespeare can get us to that sort of level, despite a capable squad.

 

I think there will come a point where he realises that we're a good attacking side and sets us up accordingly- we're not starting games to our strengths at the moment, and only looking good when we've lost the initiative and have to press forward to recover. I'm hoping there will be a moment where it clicks like 2014/15.

[somebum]

2 hours ago, Countryfox said:

Not the cudda shudda sh1te again ! ...   how do you know he would have done a job here with this team ? ..   with those players that Shakey is choosing from ?  

Yeah makes sense to stick with the tactically limited choice because it's just too scary to think of an outsider coming in

[Ric Flair]

5 minutes ago, Ted Maul said:

I don't think we'll be anywhere near relegation. It's pretty rare that clubs like ours are in that position in the modern era, and historically it's one of the most healthy positions we have ever been in. In that sense, he's perfectly adequate for the job.

 

However, the fans, players and (presumably) owners have got a taste for success and there's so much more up for grabs this season. In my opinion, 7th and a probable place in Europe are available for whoever gets their act together out of Everton, Southampton, West Ham and us. I don't think Shakespeare can get us to that sort of level, despite a capable squad.

 

I think there will come a point where he realises that we're a good attacking side and sets us up accordingly- we're not starting games to our strengths at the moment, and only looking good when we've lost the initiative and have to press forward to recover. I'm hoping there will be a moment where it clicks like 2014/15.

I'd like to see evidence of some of what you're saying here as a) this is the worst start to a PL season for us since 94/95 when we went down very easily and he's so far shown zero signs of making any changes that are different to what his former bosses have done. He's got no identity and there's very little to go on with him as he's so inexperienced, it's not boding well.

[Ricey]

22 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I'm sorry Ricey, I agree with 99.9% of your posts as you're a footballing man but I can't have that. We were good vs Arsenal, we were very mediocre vs Brighton it was one of the most boring victories I've ever witnessed but we got the job done as they were toothless. We were not interested in going forward much vs Man Utd and it was inevitable we would lose, we were again absent vs Chelsea until we went 2-0 down and then we took risks and posed a few problems. We were diabolical against Huddersfield and had we been 2 or 3-0 down like we should have been this place would be even more depressing right now. On Saturday we just invited them to go ahead and score again so that we could relax and take the shackles off, it's a catastrophic footballing mentality. You can't keep going behind and expect to get anything from games.

 

We badly need a win from somewhere and then this run of easier games could see us picking up confidence and form but whether that will teach Shakespeare anything I'm not so sure. It's the manner in which we've been approaching games and the tactics that disturb me and long term I don't see him being what we aspire to be. I'd expect someone with far more tactical class, regardless of what's he's helped us achieve as assistant.

For me we played well against Arsenal, Brighton (we won the game comfortably, if that isn't playing well I don't know what is), Chelsea and Liverpool. We haven't been at our best and there were periods of poorness in all four, but I'd consider them good performances. Performance levels and tactics, on another day, could have won us those games. We had spells in all of four of playing at our counter attacking best and we could have easily come away with points against three of last seasons top 6.

 

I think the tactics and mentality for the most part have been right from CS. Man United on the face of it seemed like a negative performance, but only because we couldn't string the passes together during counter attacks. The intention was right, the execution on that day was off.

 

I won't judge him too harshly when he's having to deal with central midfielders that are Championship quality, not yet fit/adapted or unexpectedly horribly off form.

[Countryfox]

5 minutes ago, Ted Maul said:

I don't think we'll be anywhere near relegation. It's pretty rare that clubs like ours are in that position in the modern era, and historically it's one of the most healthy positions we have ever been in. In that sense, he's perfectly adequate for the job.

 

However, the fans, players and (presumably) owners have got a taste for success and there's so much more up for grabs this season. In my opinion, 7th and a probable place in Europe are available for whoever gets their act together out of Everton, Southampton, West Ham and us. I don't think Shakespeare can get us to that sort of level, despite a capable squad.

 

I think there will come a point where he realises that we're a good attacking side and sets us up accordingly- we're not starting games to our strengths at the moment, and only looking good when we've lost the initiative and have to press forward to recover. I'm hoping there will be a moment where it clicks like 2014/15.

Interesting choice of clubs there ...   Everton, who nicked our Mr Recruitment, got players like Keane and Sigurdsson who we were chasing, and have a man in charge who is 'rated' as a quality prem manager ...  easier start than us but only a 3 point gap between us.   I think we are in with a shout Ted and it will be interesting to see how things pan out ....    as for West Ham ..       

[Countryfox]

7 minutes ago, somebum said:

Yeah makes sense to stick with the tactically limited choice because it's just too scary to think of an outsider coming in

 

Not scary at all bum but pointless highlighting managers who are doing well now and saying we should have had them ...

[Ted Maul]

20 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I'd like to see evidence of some of what you're saying here as a) this is the worst start to a PL season for us since 94/95 when we went down very easily and he's so far shown zero signs of making any changes that are different to what his former bosses have done. He's got no identity and there's very little to go on with him as he's so inexperienced, it's not boding well.

To be fair, we've had a really difficult start- a couple of disappointing results and performances, but we couldn't have expected to have anywhere near the 18 points we've played for so far.

 

I didn't know it was our worst start  if it's still our worst start in another 4 or so games, then we can start to get concerned about being in a relegation scrap- I think we would have to lose them all for it to be worse than the first 10 games in 2001.

 

I think he has to make changes, and he's a clever bloke- he will see what needs to be done. I'm keeping the faith in him in that sense, but I agree that he needs to start showing some initiative.

[Ted Maul]

22 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

Interesting choice of clubs there ...   Everton, who nicked our Mr Recruitment, got players like Keane and Sigurdsson who we were chasing, and have a man in charge who is 'rated' as a quality prem manager ...  easier start than us but only a 3 point gap between us.   I think we are in with a shout Ted and it will be interesting to see how things pan out ....    as for West Ham ..       

Haha I'm probably talking nonsense... but they were the teams I would have thought capable of finishing 7th before the season started. You can rule West Ham out now, and us too if we don't get our act together over the next couple of games.

[filbertway]

I think while the owners place so much trust in Rudkin we'll never fully look to push ourselves to the next level. He must know that any manager worth his salt at this level will want someone more experienced/talented in the DOF role.

 

So we'll just appoint managers towards the end of their careers looking for a nice pay day or new lads happy to be yes men.

[volpeazzurro]

10 hours ago, Nigel Graham Pearson said:

Needs more time. We might have played six but can only really learn anything from one of them (Huddersfield), since 4 were very likely to be losses and the other very likely a win.

I really do understand and appreciate this argument  to a point and in most ways it only seems right and fair giving a new manager time to get things right and develop his methods within a team etc. I look at the situstion of De Boer at Palace for example and think absolutely crazy! However,  when we talk about only really being able to learn about the game against Huddersfield, that to me implicitly suggests that we're almost resigned to losing to  certain teams. It doesn't seem that long ago that not that we expected to beat those same teams but felt we were capable of doing so. At that time, with the exception of 3 or 4 special players  (though they weren't when we got then), we achieved all this with a team of journeymen, the TEAM being the most important word here, players playing together in a system and style suited to their play and abilities.

 

Two of the most key players in that team or system have now gone. Nevertheless  we've bought in some really good talent albeit there may be a couple of duds as well. Yet it just isn't working, we can see that and not having the rub of the green and being glorious industrious nearly men doesn't get points. No points means trouble, we've seen it and this scenario all before, actually, when the same man was here albeit with a different manager. We got out of that two thirds of a season malaise arguably with some inferior players by altering tactics which was long long overdue, have we learned no lessons from that? 

 

Unlike De boer, Shakespeare is not exactly a new manager in many ways.  He's been at the club for years and should by now know most of our players and their caperbilities inside out. He had a number of starts as manager last season where after a sound start some familiar cracks started to appear. His inability to see the obvious problems or even worse, is too stubborn to address them for me rings warning bells. If he doesn't wake up quick then I think the inevitable will occur. Being a 'nearly,  could have been winner' through ineptness or stubbornness can't be allowed to continue. I struggle however to immediately spot an available replacement for him out there but, the longer we leave it the less attractive we become. Players will lose confidence and look to leave with new half decent players possibly reluctant to come. If I was Maguire, Iheanacho, Iborra or Silva, I'd begin to wonder if I'd been sold a complete pup regardless of the money.

 

 

[Bob Weasel Fox]

2 hours ago, Johnthefoxrayner said:

I believe he can turnthimgs around 

I hope you are right 

 

I have my doubts 

 

like others have said the Drinkwater Silva fiasco will cost Shakey and more importantly us dear

[Fox Ulike]

The criticism on here is bizarre.  I know we won the League in 2016 – but we didn’t suddenly transform into one of the ‘big 4’.  I think some people need to get the bus back to reality-land, as we're starting to show the same sense of entitlement that is so attractive  in Forest fans.

 

The only game you can fault Shakespeare for is his substitution in the Arsenal game. And even so, there are no guarantees that we’d have held off Arsenal.

 

Man United have hammered everybody they have played at home. They beat Everton and West Ham 4-0.

 

Chelsea have hammered Stoke away and won at Spurs, and beat us with an offside goal. And we’re a penalty miss from holding Liverpool at home.

 

The season starts now. Win at Bournemouth and WBA and you’ll all be back on here saying how you never lost faith in Shakespeare!

[seenitall]

On 24/09/2017 at 10:52, David Lowe said:

99% would like him as number 2? Wrong. Over 50% voted for him to be manager.

Not wrong though - if he were offered number 2 to a top name then 99% would be happy (my actual point) and I bet if you ran the poll again now you would be lucky to get much above 20% for him to stay manager - sad thing is he will get fired almost certainly and then we lost a really good man.........

[leicesterlad1989]

Everything about us so far this season appears to be negative. Results, performances, tactics and personnel.

 

The one thing that really pisses me off is the fact we are so predictable every single game. It's the same formation and players each week. That's great when you are winning games but when you are losing and you continue with the same set-up, yet expect different results, it's not good enough. We must be so predictable to play against.

 

Midweek against Liverpool was a perfect chance to start Iheanacho yet we play both Ulloa and Slimani together. The only reason the game turned in our favour was down to a bizarre injury to Ulloa, which forced a change. To me its a stubbornness to change, which I think will ultimately be his downfall.

 

We seem to perform a lot better when we play a high pressing game yet for the most part of the season we haven't seen it and when we do it's only in fits and starts. Why do we wait 'til we are a goal down before we decide to wake up?

 

On paper I honestly believe we have one of our best squads in my lifetime. We are thin on the ground in midfield but hopefully with the signing of Silva that will give us a bit more strength in that department. I just have to question whether Shakey is the man for the job though. Time will tell.

 

 

 

 

[David Lowe]

Edited 25 September 2017 by David Lowe

[David Lowe]

25 minutes ago, seenitall said:

Not wrong though - if he were offered number 2 to a top name then 99% would be happy (my actual point) and I bet if you ran the poll again now you would be lucky to get much above 20% for him to stay manager - sad thing is he will get fired almost certainly and then we lost a really good man.........

Over 50% voted that they wanted him to be manager rather than number 2 to a 'top name'. Of course it would be well down now.

[foxinsocks]

30 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

The criticism on here is bizarre.  I know we won the League in 2016 – but we didn’t suddenly transform into one of the ‘big 4’.  I think some people need to get the bus back to reality-land, as we're starting to show the same sense of entitlement that is so attractive  in Forest fans.

 

The only game you can fault Shakespeare for is his substitution in the Arsenal game. And even so, there are no guarantees that we’d have held off Arsenal.

 

Man United have hammered everybody they have played at home. They beat Everton and West Ham 4-0.

 

Chelsea have hammered Stoke away and won at Spurs, and beat us with an offside goal. And we’re a penalty miss from holding Liverpool at home.

 

The season starts now. Win at Bournemouth and WBA and you’ll all be back on here saying how you never lost faith in Shakespeare!

We didnt chase tje game v chelsea... yet we were just 0-1 at half time. As somone said earlier i hope we have more than 12 after the stoke game 

[Guest Col city fan]

1 hour ago, Worthington said:

We WERE capable of lethal counter attacking in the title winning season. The trouble is, whilst other teams have adapted their tactics when playing us, we're still trying to get by on 'Plan A'..

Just about everyone can see that a 2 man MF isn't working as our CM options are weak, which puts endless pressure on a defence that's visibly losing confidence game by game. The situation is screaming out for a tactical change, but we keep plodding along with a 4-4-2!

Forget the 'magic bounce' start to the caretaker role, I think it's now 5 points from 8 games is it not?

The 'manager' surely needs to be seen to be reacting to this,  he needs to acknowledge what's happening and reassure the fans..

Craig isn't at the moment...he seems to have his head in the sand.....Was HE Nigel's 'ostrich' ??

Quite a few people have since said that Kante was not the sole reason for being able to play this way. The ability to soak up pressure and then burst...quickly.

And of course, he wasn't the ONLY reason. Vardy was on fire that season. Mahrez was unstoppable etc.

But i tell you what. It's become abundantly clear that Kante was the MAJOR reason for our success. Since he's left...quite literally since he's left.. we've generally looked a shadow of the team we were. He was utterly crucial to how we played. I'm dismayed that we've also lost Drinkwater and are now starting the likes of King on a regular basis. 

[Bob Weasel Fox]

1 minute ago, Col city fan said:

Quite a few people have since said that Kante was not the sole reason for being able to play this way. The ability to soak up pressure and then burst...quickly.

And of course, he wasn't the ONLY reason. Vardy was on fire that season. Mahrez was unstoppable etc.

But i tell you what. It's become abundantly clear that Kante was the MAJOR reason for our success. Since he's left...quite literally since he's left.. we've generally looked a shadow of the team we were. He was utterly crucial to how we played. I'm dismayed that we've also lost Drinkwater and are now starting the likes of King on a regular basis. 

The Drinkwater Silva fiasco is going to cost us dear Col. 

 

i hope it doesn't but it isn't looking good Col

[Shefffox2]

Get in Big Sam now,let's  start winning a few matches ugly, keep Shaky as his no2.if necessary. Probably take us 2 months,to get the deal done.,so after we have lost on the south coast next week, let's start what will be painfully slow process,might win a few before Xmas and Sam won't put up with Rudders follies in Jan window.Happy new year

[Ric Flair]

22 minutes ago, Shefffox2 said:

Get in Big Sam now,let's  start winning a few matches ugly, keep Shaky as his no2.if necessary. Probably take us 2 months,to get the deal done.,so after we have lost on the south coast next week, let's start what will be painfully slow process,might win a few before Xmas and Sam won't put up with Rudders follies in Jan window.Happy new year

Good lord no, we don't need a footballing dinosaur/cretin. We need someone innovative who can implement a style and verve to this club and the way we play. I'm bored of not playing football. Before anyone says this is the way we played when we completed football, is misguided. We were perfect then, we defended in unison and attacked in unison. We knew when to sit back and invite the opposition to fanny about with the ball and we knew when to wreak devastating havoc. We also put together some extraordinary passing moves. We're a million miles away from that structure right now.

[CosbehFox]

If what people want is a different style of football, possibly even different formations. The squad is as much of a problem as the coaching. 

[The Doctor]

3 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

If what people want is a different style of football, possibly even different formations. The squad is as much of a problem as the coaching. 

I don't think it's really about a new style so much as it is reverting to what we've done to such success in the past couple of years. Hell, we're playing it at times this season - we're sat here 1 point from the last 9 available, could easily have been 7 or even 9 with how we've played for spells in those games (i.e. fast tempo and incisive - like we did when we won the title, and in the CL last year), but the spells only came once we were trailing and chasing the game. We need to start on the front foot, not take 50 minutes to get going like we have been this month - and that to me seems a manager issue, either in the tactics he sets up with or getting the players motivated and ready to go from the first whistle.

[hackneyfox]

1 hour ago, Shefffox2 said:

Get in Big Sam now,let's  start winning a few matches ugly, keep Shaky as his no2.if necessary. Probably take us 2 months,to get the deal done.,so after we have lost on the south coast next week, let's start what will be painfully slow process,might win a few before Xmas and Sam won't put up with Rudders follies in Jan window.Happy new year

Yeah, great idea and then we can re-sign Schlupp for £20m.

[moseeds]

We're still trying to play a rapid, fast counter attacking style no different from 2-3 years ago. During which time bodies have grown older and more weary. And of course opposition teams have evolved far faster than we have meaning our tactics look even more basic than they did a few seasons ago. I'm not sure why we have no 'plan B' in terms of trying to calm games down - at the moment we seem to default to playing deeper and deeper as the game progresses, much like we did under Ranieri last season.

The opening has been tough but I fear it will take several games against 'lesser' opposition to break free of the defensive/deep mindset which will inevitably sap confidence. I'm not so sure we'll get much from the next 3 games. I'm hoping I'm very wrong.