Should Britain's railways be nationised?

[foxoffderby]

When we were in the Champions League I took a train from Alicante to Madrid. I was so impressed by how clean on time and how comfortable the seating was.  Their standard class was far better then our 1st class. There was plenty of room for everybody very modern trains a great experience and cheap.

[Rogstanley]

Looking at the big picture, how much longer has rail travel actually got? Enter self driving cars and/or semi-automated 'car trains' and it's difficult to see why anybody would continue to put up with the hassle and expense of travelling by train.

 

I'd be half tempted to kill the industry by fully privatising it, cancelling all subsidies and letting the race to the bottom commence. Use the money saved to put in place the next generation of transport tech. Be a leader, for once.

[surrifox]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Only if means we get a significant reduction in ticket fares.

 

British Rail was absolutely crap. I'd prefer a German model of part private part public.

BR absolutely was terrible - unbelievably bad .

That said I was asked to defer retirement a year ago but faced with the prospect of more journeys (actually that wouldn't have been too bad) make that wasted precious hours freezing my balls off waiting for Southern trains that were always being cancelled/ late/ not stopping at the station to make up lost time I decided against . 

To get the railways to work in this country I suggest finding a way to clone Isambard Brunel or if that isn't a realistic possibility asking the Germans/ Spanish/ Italians or French to come over and show us how it should be done 

Edited 12 February 2018 by surrifox

[Carl the Llama]

Frankly can't get my head around anybody choosing to trust essential services to private business where the priority is to provide for the shareholders 1st and only care about the customer if some PR disaster forces them to appear to be making more than the bare minimum effort or not exploiting workers.

 

Can't help feeling that those against it are the same ones who voted Brexit to 'take back control' by which they mean slashing regulations and letting our politicians have more opportunities to crawl into the pockets of billionaire CEOs.

[Guest MattP]

17 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Can't help feeling that those against it are the same ones who voted Brexit to 'take back control' by which they mean slashing regulations and letting our politicians have more opportunities to crawl into the pockets of billionaire CEOs.

Aside from a few more than a handful, virtually all the banks, institutions, millionaires, CEO's, CBI etc backed Remain so I don't really know how you work that out.

 

Nothing to do with leave/remain - any poll you see has huge support for rail nationalisation - it wouldn't be my choice by if the public want it they should get it and they'll then receive the standard of service they voted for.

[The Fox Covert]

I voted yes. The way the railways have been run has been a complete disaster for decades, unlike most of the continent. There is no vision or long term strategy, which is a recipe for disaster in any kind of large scale undertaking, whether it is public or private. 

Electrification of the Great Western, the easiest of the major main lines to electrify because of the vision of its' builder Isambard Kingdom Brunel, is massively over budget and years behind schedule. It was meant to reach Bristol in 2016 and Cardiff in 2017. In the last few weeks the wires have finally gone up at Swindon, fully 40 miles short of Bristol. The Midland Main Line electrification has been binned. Probably the numpties in whatever government department is responsible for railways don't even realise it serves four major cities, and after the West Coast Main Line probably has the largest population within its' catchment area. Presumably Midland Main Line services will continue with clapped-out forty year old trains until the distant future, until somebody responsible realises that it is a working railway, not a heritage line. If you live in Yorkshire or South Wales your local train will probably be a recycled Leyland National bus on rail wheels. Probably the worst trains in the world!

The biggest problem of all, which seems to escape our politicians, is that because of decades of lack of investment, any major railway project will fail because there aren't enough railway engineers and a lot of those we have are recruited from the continent on expensive contracts. Who wants a career in an industry where an investment decision means slapping another welding patch on the corroded structure of a clapped out Pacer, or putting a new engine in the sixty year old relics which chug along with the sleeper trains to Fort William.

 

[Monk]

Public ownership will mean less investment in infrastructure and rolling stock in the long run. It's an easy answer to say 'nationalise them', but I think a better approach would be to completely rethink the contract, bidding process and competition guidelines.

 

I think the East Coast line, for example, should be opened up so that multiple operators can offer services at different prices - and rather than bidding up front for an unknown number of passengers, the rail operator should agree that a % of ticket sales go to the taxpayer, and even a % has to be reinvested in infrastructure and rolling stock.

 

The ticketing system was only recently revamped but I still think is an absolute mess, and rail travel is far too expensive. The losses made on the east coast line show it's not down to skimming profits - they made a big loss instead. It's rather down to inefficiencies and an ageing railway system.

 

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Aside from a few more than a handful, virtually all the banks, institutions, millionaires, CEO's, CBI etc backed Remain so I don't really know how you work that out.

 

Nothing to do with leave/remain - any poll you see has huge support for rail nationalisation - it wouldn't be my choice by if the public want it they should get it and they'll then receive the standard of service they voted for.

We'll be the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, Google, Apple and Amazon plc. within a decade of soft-boiled Brexit you mark my words.

[separator]

5 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

The Midland Main Line electrification has been binned.

 

Presumably Midland Main Line services will continue with clapped-out forty year old trains until the distant future, until somebody responsible realises that it is a working railway, not a heritage line.

 

Midland mainline is being electrified but only up to Corby, and they're going to be served by Thameslink trains rather than new rolling stock for the east Midlands franchise. The straightening of the track through Market Harborough has been delayed as well due to Carillion being the main contractor. Mainline services through the east midlands at the bottom of the list when it comes to major investment as always.

[The Doctor]

2 hours ago, Rob1742 said:

I have always found the train service to be pretty good. I only travel on it say 3 or 4 times a year, but have also thought it pretty decent and always wondered what the fuss was all about.

 

I also recall services run by the governments in the past to be pretty primitive, and everything suddenly improved under private ownership. 

 

Another thought is dealings with local councils I have always found to be laboured and backward. 

 

So for me, it all points towards businesses running business, which creates competition, which ensures a good service as someone is always waiting round the corner to pinch it if you are not on your game. 

 

 

Not in the current system though - franchised system so run for profit with no competition beyond the tender to renew - passengers can't vote with their feet. Hence more expensive than the continent with a worse service. The current system is a botched attempt - all the negatives of privatisation with none of the benefits. 

[foxy boxing]

Yes, maybe if the money and profits made went back into maintaining the tracks and networks and paying the people who work on the railways a decent wage then we might have a decent railway system where commuters are not ripped off time after time using a poor service.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Looking at the big picture, how much longer has rail travel actually got? Enter self driving cars and/or semi-automated 'car trains' and it's difficult to see why anybody would continue to put up with the hassle and expense of travelling by train.

 

I'd be half tempted to kill the industry by fully privatising it, cancelling all subsidies and letting the race to the bottom commence. Use the money saved to put in place the next generation of transport tech. Be a leader, for once.

Personally think cargo should be taken off the motorways and moved via rail. 

[Guest MattP]

41 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

We'll be the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, Google, Apple and Amazon plc. within a decade of soft-boiled Brexit you mark my words.

Support for Scottish Independence is now lower than at pre-referendum levels and I don't think anyone has suggested the Welsh would go near it. No idea where you are coming fron on that.

 

We really are in first World problem territory when we worry that big compaines might want to base themselves here, if they do great, as long as we have a competitive but not too generous or too puntive tax rate.

Edited 12 February 2018 by MattP

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, MattP said:

Support for Scottish Indepence is now lower than at pre-refernedum levels and I don't think anyone has suggested the Welsh would go near it. No idea where you are coming fron on that.

 

We really are in first World problem territory when we worry that big compaines might want to base themselves here, if they do great, as long as we have a competitive but not too generous or too puntive tax rate.

Matt you are aware that Wales and Scotland are a part of Great Britain, right?

 

Tbf though you're not wrong that Scottish and Welsh leave support will go through the roof after the shit hits the Brexit fan and they realise what they've been dragged into.  And you are also right that those removed from the reality of working life will be rubbing their hands at pocketing more of that big business cash at the expense of their expendable workforce.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Matt you are aware that Wales and Scotland are a part of Great Britain, right?

 

Tbf though you're not wrong that Scottish and Welsh leave support will go through the roof after the shit hits the Brexit fan and they realise what they've been dragged into.  And you are also right that those removed from the reality of working life will be rubbing their hands at pocketing more of that big business cash at the expense of their expendable workforce.

Misunderstood you, assumed you meant they were leaving. Heard it all before about Scottish support for indy going through the roof, was supposed to have already happened, didn't - either way they will always import more to here than Europe so it isn't going to be any better for them leaving us if the argument does come down to economics.

 

If Big business wants to pay it's tax here I'm happy, I'd rather that and have the job creation and tax take that goes with it than go down the road and forcing it away and leaving less for public services.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Misunderstood you, assumed you meant they were leaving. Heard it all before about Scottish support for indy going through the roof, was supposed to have already happened, didn't - either way they will always import more to here than Europe so it isn't going to be any better for them leaving us if the argument does come down to economics.

 

If Big business wants to pay it's tax here I'm happy, I'd rather that and have the job creation and tax take that goes with it than go down the road and forcing it away and leaving less for public services.

I have to say I admire your tenacity responding to my shitposts this morning but I'm gurning for some breakfast so I'm gonna go grab some while we still have sanitary food standards for the manufacturers to adhere to.

[Guest MattP]

29 minutes ago, foxy boxing said:

Yes, maybe if the money and profits made went back into maintaining the tracks and networks and paying the people who work on the railways a decent wage then we might have a decent railway system where commuters are not ripped off time after time using a poor service.

Surely if we are going to head towards a nationalised railway we need to bring wages down rather than put them up like the Europeans?

 

A train driver in Germany earns somewhere between £22,000-35,000 a year, whereas here it's somewhere between £30,000-61,000 (the average on Virgin is over £60k). We pay far bigger wages over here.

 

http://www.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-earn-less-than-youd-think/a-18467783

 

https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/job-profiles/train-driver

[Fox92]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Haven't virgin just been awarded the west coat just after admitting they can't afford to run the east coast? I'm not 100% if that's the case but that's what i've seen inferred.

They've been given the East Coast again despite the fact they haven't been able to afford for the past two/three years, or whatever they've admitted. I'm a railway enthusiast but don't read about the business/contract parts of it all. But I think it'll be the first mainline to go back into public hands, maybe sooner rather than later.

Edited 12 February 2018 by Fox92

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Misunderstood you, assumed you meant they were leaving. Heard it all before about Scottish support for indy going through the roof, was supposed to have already happened, didn't - either way they will always import more to here than Europe so it isn't going to be any better for them leaving us if the argument does come down to economics.

 

If Big business wants to pay it's tax here I'm happy, I'd rather that and have the job creation and tax take that goes with it than go down the road and forcing it away and leaving less for public services.

Big business paying it's taxes 

Edited 12 February 2018 by Guest

[davieG]

Only if they could be run without party political interference with their constant changes of ideologies which we've seen mess up the likes of Education and the NHS.

 

It would need to be set up by a coalition of political parties and other interested/invested bodies, given a 10 year mandate with agreed targets and be left to run it by a board of representatives of those that set it up.

 

Well something along those lines.

[indierich06]

Yes, 100%. Even if rail fares remain at the same level and the service doesn't improve - which is a big if, considering the example of east coast rail was such a success - at least profits won't go towards subsidising the fares for European state-owned rail companies and funding huge dividend payouts for private shareholders. It's not like these private companies even invest anything back into the network either - Network Rail already heavily invests in the upkeep of the rail network and the private companies which operate the franchises contribute next to nothing to this.

 

Let the franchises expire and bring them back into public ownership. Only difficulty seems to be rolling stock - do we buy it back, continue to hire it or build our own? I would have thought setting up a private rolling stock company in the UK would be a good move, and would provide a lot of jobs - but it would be expensive too.

 

[indierich06]

2 hours ago, surrifox said:

BR absolutely was terrible - unbelievably bad .

That said I was asked to defer retirement a year ago but faced with the prospect of more journeys (actually that wouldn't have been too bad) make that wasted precious hours freezing my balls off waiting for Southern trains that were always being cancelled/ late/ not stopping at the station to make up lost time I decided against . 

To get the railways to work in this country I suggest finding a way to clone Isambard Brunel or if that isn't a realistic possibility asking the Germans/ Spanish/ Italians or French to come over and show us how it should be done 

They'll probably tell you the best way to do it is bid for a load of privatised contracts - in a country like the UK for example - and then plough all the profits back into your own services!

[leicsmac]

Having experienced it I'd go for the Korean solution - private companies but backed by government money and answerable to government and voters in a way that doesn't seem to be the case here. Seems to work for them in a country that's about the same size as the UK, so...

 

Also, there's another factor at work here IMO - we "won the war but lost the peace" in terms of infrastructure; we have never had to build rail infrastructure from basic in the last half century in the way most other OECD countries have, which leaves us with a lot of antiquated networks no longer fit for purpose and unable to update them in the way they need for fear of the disruption it would cause. Perhaps that needs to be looked at?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

They'll probably tell you the best way to do it is bid for a load of privatised contracts - in a country like the UK for example - and then plough all the profits back into your own services!

Exactly. This is always my point when it comes to nationalising energy. Become a world leader in clean energy and sell that expertise to the world. Lead for once. 

[ozleicester]

bloody socialists