Cricket 2018

[StanSP]

no first-ball wicket. think we're in for a long day  

[surrifox]

16 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

500 odd runs or bat for 2 days, the openers need to set the tone, cook needs dropping down the order.

I can't see how dropping Cook down the order will be of benefit - he has batted at 1 all his career and had his best career moments opening. He is prone to getting into bad habits which Gooch used to identify and put him straight on.

I can think of no other current English player capable of batting for a day and a half and putting up a double century save for Root who is also struggling with form and technique.. The structure of cricket is responsible in part for this- the one day and T20 formats discouraging patient innings building and offering the financial rewards to the big hitters. Kohli has transcended the two formats because of his prodigious talent - Steve Smith hasn't managed it. It looks like we have to await the arrival of the next genuine test no. 1/2 or invest some time in getting Pope's mental approach sorted out as he is richly talented. The loss of Bairstow is a very damaging blow to our prospects in this series.

[AKCJ]

Lets not act like getting 317 in the 4th innings in bowler-friendly conditions isn't a good performance.

 

We lost this test match because we decided to bowl first and our first innings was nothing short of a disgrace.

[surrifox]

9 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Lets not act like getting 317 in the 4th innings in bowler-friendly conditions isn't a good performance.

 

We lost this test match because we decided to bowl first and our first innings was nothing short of a disgrace.

scoring over 300 in 4th innings  absolutely is a good performance albeit against ultra attacking field placings which gave added value to attacking shots and edges - the top 4 batsmen aggregate scores in two innings =134 is something to be reflected upon.

[Max Wall]

1 hour ago, surrifox said:

I can't see how dropping Cook down the order will be of benefit - he has batted at 1 all his career and had his best career moments opening. He is prone to getting into bad habits which Gooch used to identify and put him straight on.

I can think of no other current English player capable of batting for a day and a half and putting up a double century save for Root who is also struggling with form and technique.. The structure of cricket is responsible in part for this- the one day and T20 formats discouraging patient innings building and offering the financial rewards to the big hitters. Kohli has transcended the two formats because of his prodigious talent - Steve Smith hasn't managed it. It looks like we have to await the arrival of the next genuine test no. 1/2 or invest some time in getting Pope's mental approach sorted out as he is richly talented. The loss of Bairstow is a very damaging blow to our prospects in this series.

That's so often forgotten. Openers, by the nature of the batting position, are often either low or high scores. I could understand the clamour to replace Cook more if there was anyone more suitable. There's such a lack of good openers, prepared to fight and knock the shine off the ball and the wind out of the opposition bowlers. If we had a suitable replacement for Cook he'd be opening with Cook right now.

I've been watching test cricket since the 70's, I'm pretty sure I'll forget someone without bothering to google it but the only reliable opening batsmen we've had over any sustained period of time since then have been, Boycott, Gooch, Atherton, Strauss, Cook and to a lesser degree, Trescothick. Lets face it, Atherton was always up for the fight, despite being in a mostly appalling, losing team, yet he also had too many low scores to remember them all. That's 5 or 6 in the last 40 years. They just don't come along often.

 

Edit - Just found this on the bbc website. It was from December 2015. Sums up the situation really. In all those tests and years, can you imagine how many different opening partners those 6 have had, none of those scores of partners really cemented a place alongside these names?

In the 51 years since Geoffrey Boycott made his debut in 1964, at least one of Boycott, Graham Gooch, Mike Atherton, Marcus Trescothick, Andrew Strauss or Alastair Cook has opened in 79% (442) of England's 561 Tests.

 

Edited 22 August 2018 by Max Wall

[Bert]

17 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

That's so often forgotten. Openers, by the nature of the batting position, are often either low or high scores. I could understand the clamour to replace Cook more if there was anyone more suitable. There's such a lack of good openers, prepared to fight and knock the shine off the ball and the wind out of the opposition bowlers. If we had a suitable replacement for Cook he'd be opening with Cook right now.

I've been watching test cricket since the 70's, I'm pretty sure I'll forget someone without bothering to google it but the only reliable opening batsmen we've had over any sustained period of time since then have been, Boycott, Gooch, Atherton, Strauss, Cook and to a lesser degree, Trescothick. Lets face it, Atherton was always up for the fight, despite being in a mostly appalling, losing team, yet he also had too many low scores to remember them all. That's 5 or 6 in the last 40 years. They just don't come along often.

I’ll never forget Athers getting run out on 99  

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Bert said:

I’ll never forget Athers getting run out on 99  

Trying to run three when your batting partner is Mike Gatting is a mistake up there with putting pineapple on pizza tbh.

[Max Wall]

6 minutes ago, Bert said:

I’ll never forget Athers getting run out on 99  

Neither will he Bert!

Jesus that bloke put in some courageous performances. The 'Allan Donald' innings is highlighted the most and was incredible viewing but he did it on a number of occasions. How he must have hated facing Glenn (most did tbf), a nagging, metronomic line and length that pretty much found out every opener in the end. He was a beacon of hope in a God awful team 

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

Neither will he Bert!

Jesus that bloke put in some courageous performances. The 'Allan Donald' innings is highlighted the most and was incredible viewing but he did it on a number of occasions. How he must have hated facing Glenn (most did tbf), a nagging, metronomic line and length that pretty much found out every opener in the end. He was a beacon of hope in a God awful team 

That passage of play against Donald is absolutely fantastic to watch, it was as fast as I've ever seen anybody bowl.

His 185* in Joburg to grab a draw is still the greatest innings I've ever seen by an England batsman. Again pissing off Allan Donald.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

Neither will he Bert!

Jesus that bloke put in some courageous performances. The 'Allan Donald' innings is highlighted the most and was incredible viewing but he did it on a number of occasions. How he must have hated facing Glenn (most did tbf), a nagging, metronomic line and length that pretty much found out every opener in the end. He was a beacon of hope in a God awful team 

 

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

That passage of play against Donald is absolutely fantastic to watch, it was as fast as I've ever seen anybody bowl.

His 185* in Joburg to grab a draw is still the greatest innings I've ever seen by an England batsman. Again pissing off Allan Donald.

Agreed. Fantastic innings against some of the most hostile fast bowling ever.

Didn't he nick one that wasn't given, too?

[Guest MattP]

39 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

I could understand the clamour to replace Cook more if there was anyone more suitable. There's such a lack of good openers, prepared to fight and knock the shine off the ball and the wind out of the opposition bowlers. If we had a suitable replacement for Cook he'd be opening with Cook right now.

Great point. We can't even sort the second opening slot out so no point causing another problem.

The other thing about Cook is at least he's getting out to good balls, which is more than can be said for others at the top of the order.

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Agreed. Fantastic innings against some of the most hostile fast bowling ever.

Didn't he nick one that wasn't given, too?

Yeah, he gave Donald the glove for his benefit year complete with red mark

His autobiography is well worth a read, great stories from the early 90's cricket and just how farcical it all was, Tufnell turning up for a tour with nothing in his kit bag but a deck of cards and cash, players so drunk they were often helped onto the plane let alone off it.

[Max Wall]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

That passage of play against Donald is absolutely fantastic to watch, it was as fast as I've ever seen anybody bowl.

His 185* in Joburg to grab a draw is still the greatest innings I've ever seen by an England batsman. Again pissing off Allan Donald.

It was mesmerising. Atherton used to get the faintest smile on his face in those situations but never reacted anymore than that. Bowlers must have hated it. Especially one as fuming as Donald was. The bowling was lightening fast.

It's difficult to argue regarding his 185 not out. Depends on how we define greatest though. I watched Botham's innings at Headingley in 1981 on the TV as it happened and, for different reasons, I'd have that right up there. Pietersen smashing Brett Lee about was another one, even though that was for a draw (I think). Butcher against the Aussies. There's been so many. For sheer grit (in the covered pitches/helmets era) Atherton's probably does stand alone. I'm too young to have seen it but the days of the likes of Brian Close and that type, I think they probably had a much harder time. Imagine Thomson, Lillee, Griffiths, Hall etc bowling at you before helmets were allowed 

 

[Max Wall]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Agreed. Fantastic innings against some of the most hostile fast bowling ever.

Didn't he nick one that wasn't given, too?

Yeah he did, that's what really kicked it off from memory 

[Max Wall]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Great point. We can't even sort the second opening slot out so no point causing another problem.

The other thing about Cook is at least he's getting out to good balls, which is more than can be said for others at the top of the order.

Yeah, he gave Donald the glove for his benefit year complete with red mark

His autobiography is well worth a read, great stories from the early 90's cricket and just how farcical it all was, Tufnell turning up for a tour with nothing in his kit bag but a deck of cards and cash, players so drunk they were often helped onto the plane let alone off it.

Yeah, an enjoyable read.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Great point. We can't even sort the second opening slot out so no point causing another problem.

The other thing about Cook is at least he's getting out to good balls, which is more than can be said for others at the top of the order.

Yeah, he gave Donald the glove for his benefit year complete with red mark

His autobiography is well worth a read, great stories from the early 90's cricket and just how farcical it all was, Tufnell turning up for a tour with nothing in his kit bag but a deck of cards and cash, players so drunk they were often helped onto the plane let alone off it.

I'll have to check that out, always liked Athers tbf.

6 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

It was mesmerising. Atherton used to get the faintest smile on his face in those situations but never reacted anymore than that. Bowlers must have hated it. Especially one as fuming as Donald was. The bowling was lightening fast.

It's difficult to argue regarding his 185 not out. Depends on how we define greatest though. I watched Botham's innings at Headingley in 1981 on the TV as it happened and, for different reasons, I'd have that right up there. Pietersen smashing Brett Lee about was another one, even though that was for a draw (I think). Butcher against the Aussies. There's been so many. For sheer grit (in the covered pitches/helmets era) Atherton's probably does stand alone. I'm too young to have seen it but the days of the likes of Brian Close and that type, I think they probably had a much harder time. Imagine Thomson, Lillee, Griffiths, Hall etc bowling at you before helmets were allowed 

 

2

This is what makes Bradmans record so amazing IMO - to be batting in conditions so much more favourable for the bowler and still have a batting average 4.4 standard deviations above the mean and over 35% higher than anyone else even to the present day is...well, unreal.

[Max Wall]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'll have to check that out, always liked Athers tbf.

This is what makes Bradmans record so amazing IMO - to be batting in conditions so much more favourable for the bowler and still have a batting average 4.4 standard deviations above the mean and over 35% higher than anyone else even to the present day is...well, unreal.

Yeah, so annoying he's an Aussie  An average of 99+ when you've played in that era and faced series like bodyline is..........well, unreal does sum it up rather well.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Max Wall said:

It was mesmerising. Atherton used to get the faintest smile on his face in those situations but never reacted anymore than that. Bowlers must have hated it. Especially one as fuming as Donald was. The bowling was lightening fast.

It's difficult to argue regarding his 185 not out. Depends on how we define greatest though. I watched Botham's innings at Headingley in 1981 on the TV as it happened and, for different reasons, I'd have that right up there. Pietersen smashing Brett Lee about was another one, even though that was for a draw (I think). Butcher against the Aussies. There's been so many. For sheer grit (in the covered pitches/helmets era) Atherton's probably does stand alone. I'm too young to have seen it but the days of the likes of Brian Close and that type, I think they probably had a much harder time. Imagine Thomson, Lillee, Griffiths, Hall etc bowling at you before helmets were allowed

I've only watched that Botham innings all the way through once but I remember thinking just how lucky he got, an incredible amount of balls landing in between fielders.

Atherton is top for me just for the time of it more than anything, at that stage under that pressure to bat for a day and a half is pretty special. 643 minutes at the crease it was accoring to Cricinfo, we also lose innings like that if Test Cricket ever goes to four days.

Butcher's was superb against that attack, Oother's off the top of my head, I remember KP playing a stormer in Colombo as well as the Oval that kept us at number 1 in the World, Cook's big ones in Brisbane and India.

This was an incredible one and probably my earliest memory watching cricket, Gooch with his 154* against the Windies attack with Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall etc - http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16540/scorecard/63557/england-vs-west-indies-1st-test-west-indies-tour-of-england-1991

Edited 22 August 2018 by MattP

[Max Wall]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I've only watched that Botham innings all the way through once but I remember thinking just how lucky he got, an incredible amount of balls landing in between fielders.

Atherton is top for me just for the time of it more than anything, at that stage under that pressure to bat for a day and a half is pretty special. 643 minutes at the crease it was accoring to Cricinfo, we also lose innings like that if Test Cricket ever goes to four days.

Butcher's was superb against that attack, Oother's off the top of my head, I remember KP playing a stormer in Colombo as well as the Oval that kept us at number 1 in the World, Cook's big ones in Brisbane and India.

This was an incredible one and probably my earliest memory watching cricket, Gooch with his 154* against the Windies attack with Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall etc - http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16540/scorecard/63557/england-vs-west-indies-1st-test-west-indies-tour-of-england-1991

Man, memories. Atherton was magnificent for sure. The Botham innings was ridiculous, the situation, the unorthodox nature of a lot of  the shots, the sheer luck in getting off with throwing the bat in that particular era when it was very rarely done. I was a kid, it's burned on my memory. Atherton's, in fact almost all the others, are completely orthodox by comparison. That ranks as the favourite series I've seen. I was at the first day of the next test in Edgbaston (the match where Botham took 5 for 1 in the 2nd innings). Unfortunately, I only had a ticket for the 1st day so was there to see England collapse to 189 all out and Gower, my hero at the time being a Leicester player, to get a 10 ball duck and get nipped out by Terry Alderman. 

Butchers innings was brilliant too, as is the one you mention by Gooch. The 2009/10 Ashes was probably my 2nd favourite series as we simply ground the Aussies into their own turf. That was enjoyable almost from start to finish as Cook, Trott and co piled on the runs. It was rare to feel a little smug as an England cricket supporter but that 2009/10 Ashes was one of those times, especially when we shot them out for 98 and were 150 for none by close in front of an almost empty MCG on boxing day.

[Max Wall]

Can't help but feel a little disappointed that James Vince has been recalled. I don't see enough county cricket to extol the virtues of possible replacements but Vince seems to have had a few chances to convince now without ever coming close to doing so.

 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Max Wall said:

Can't help but feel a little disappointed that James Vince has been recalled. I don't see enough county cricket to extol the virtues of possible replacements but Vince seems to have had a few chances to convince now without ever coming close to doing so.

 

Might have to request a bet on him being caught at slip both innings.

[Max Wall]

3 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Might have to request a bet on him being caught at slip both innings.

He can't bat twice if we win by an innings 

[surrifox]

55 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

Can't help but feel a little disappointed that James Vince has been recalled. I don't see enough county cricket to extol the virtues of possible replacements but Vince seems to have had a few chances to convince now without ever coming close to doing so.

 

So predictable - selection is a total joke

[Bert]

1 hour ago, Max Wall said:

Can't help but feel a little disappointed that James Vince has been recalled. I don't see enough county cricket to extol the virtues of possible replacements but Vince seems to have had a few chances to convince now without ever coming close to doing so.

 

I’ve read the article, it’s to “provide cover” in case Bairstow doesn’t make it. 

[Osavo]

Vince again, really? 

Kick in the teeth for Rory Burns, that. Vince has been a serial failure in test cricket and keeps getting chances, the same thing happened with Keaton Jennings, why recall players who have already proven they are not up to scratch?

Personally for this test, given our sqaud, I'd play

Cook, Jennings, Ali, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler, Woakes, Rashid, Broad, Anderson

[AKCJ]

Vince is in form to be fair.