Formations for next season

[LC/FC]

28 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

For me it was the reason why we were under par today for most of the match, players weren't quite used to their roles within the system. That said, it takes time to bed in a new way of playing and I'm sure we will see it again as Rodgers has used it throughout his career. I would love to know why he switches to it sometimes? Is it to deal with teams that have better technical players, or is it to be used against teams that sit back? I think when playing the system we look less dynamic and fluid, but perhaps more direct and able to deal with more attritional games. In his post match interview, Rodgers mentioned that Stoke play a diamond formation so it feels like he might have requested this very specific fixture for the team to see first hand how they need to position themselves? I found that to be a very interesting tidbit.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said but would add that I feel that Tielemans wasn't able to get on the ball as much as he did against Cambridge and I think we look a better team when get gets on the ball as much as possible. For that reason I am personally a bigger fan of the 433, but the diamond might be more effective against the top clubs in the league? We will have to see when he decides to wheel it out.

 

I didn't think pressing was too bad though I think it was more that we were a bit wasteful once we got the ball back compared to Cambridge midweek. But I know what you mean in that in our previous games the high press was almost like a choke hold in an MMA fight, with the opposition unable to get out, whereas today Stoke beat the press on a number of occasions and we were in big trouble. In fact that might be the reason why he swithces formations sometimes.

 

Perez gets into very good spaces and positions but I thought he was a bit indifferent today. Too much of a passenger and not affecting the game as much as I would like him to, especially compared to Marc Albrighton who has been superb in every game he's played in preseason. He could be a revelation this season because he's finishing chances now, which he's never really done before.

 

Totally agree with you about Riccy P. In my opinion he is actually a world class player, I genuinely think across Europe there aren't many better right backs right now. He does it all!

 

P:S for those who want to know, we played our version of Liverpool's diamond system when Rodgers as in charge, with Maddison behind the front two.

 

 

I personally believe the system is being tested out for us to allow our rampaging, marauding fullbacks to press forward more. Overloading one side of the pitch so the otherside can press up further in support and create chances or crosses. Peirera and Chilwell seemed to be further up the pitch in the second half. 

[StriderHiryu]

8 minutes ago, LC/FC said:

I personally believe the system is being tested out for us to allow our rampaging, marauding fullbacks to press forward more. Overloading one side of the pitch so the otherside can press up further in support and create chances or crosses. Peirera and Chilwell seemed to be further up the pitch in the second half. 

You could well be right!

 

If you are interested, you can read more about the use of his formation at Liverpool here:

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2015/07/08/tactical-philosophy-brendan-rodgers/

 

Some excepts:

 

In 2012, Liverpool came calling. There were lofty expectations at the Kop End, a desire to return to the glory days of Shankly. On the other hand, Rodgers scarcely had the personnel to fit his philosophy- players like Jordan Henderson, Stuart Downing and Andy Carroll were more suited to the traditional 4-4-2 system.

 

After a difficult first 6 months, Rodgers brought in Coutinho and Sturridge and assembled his team.

 

Recognizing that, in Luis Suarez, he had a forward of extraordinary ability and personality, Rodgers built a team around the Uruguayan’s attacking prowess. From a possession-based team, the Reds turned into a high-pressing, vertically passing group which launched counter-attacks at breakneck speeds.

 

The skill of Suarez upfront was complemented by the pace of Daniel Sturridge, while Raheem Sterling, with his mazy dribbling, provided channels for the forwards to run into. Steven Gerrard was re-invented as a regista, ably assisted by Coutinho in playmaking duties and Henderson flourished in the box-to-box role.

 

The Liverpool of 2013/14 turned out to be an efficient counter-attacking unit and showcased Rodgers’ ability to adapt and evolve. When he knew that his Swansea tactics had little chances of success, he turned to man-management and built a system based on the strengths of individual players. The message was clear- when a manager’s ideas do not work, he turns to his players and knowing his players’ strengths and weaknesses needs to be a part of his tactical philosophy as much as any pre-conceived ideal.

He had been hired to make Liverpool the English Barcelona; he ended up making them the English Dortmund. Not that the Anfield faithful were complaining.

 

 

 

With the players we have on our team, the part in bold could work for us?

 

 

Edited 27 July 2019 by StriderHiryu

[LC/FC]

12 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

You could well be right!

 

If you are interested, you can read more about the use of his formation at Liverpool here:

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2015/07/08/tactical-philosophy-brendan-rodgers/

 

Some excepts:

 

In 2012, Liverpool came calling. There were lofty expectations at the Kop End, a desire to return to the glory days of Shankly. On the other hand, Rodgers scarcely had the personnel to fit his philosophy- players like Jordan Henderson, Stuart Downing and Andy Carroll were more suited to the traditional 4-4-2 system.

 

After a difficult first 6 months, Rodgers brought in Coutinho and Sturridge and assembled his team.

 

Recognizing that, in Luis Suarez, he had a forward of extraordinary ability and personality, Rodgers built a team around the Uruguayan’s attacking prowess. From a possession-based team, the Reds turned into a high-pressing, vertically passing group which launched counter-attacks at breakneck speeds.

 

The skill of Suarez upfront was complemented by the pace of Daniel Sturridge, while Raheem Sterling, with his mazy dribbling, provided channels for the forwards to run into. Steven Gerrard was re-invented as a regista, ably assisted by Coutinho in playmaking duties and Henderson flourished in the box-to-box role.

 

The Liverpool of 2013/14 turned out to be an efficient counter-attacking unit and showcased Rodgers’ ability to adapt and evolve. When he knew that his Swansea tactics had little chances of success, he turned to man-management and built a system based on the strengths of individual players. The message was clear- when a manager’s ideas do not work, he turns to his players and knowing his players’ strengths and weaknesses needs to be a part of his tactical philosophy as much as any pre-conceived ideal.

He had been hired to make Liverpool the English Barcelona; he ended up making them the English Dortmund. Not that the Anfield faithful were complaining.

 

 

 

With the players we have on our team, the part in bold could work for us?

 

 

Think we have slight differences than Liverpool and might be more like Swansea, but that's due to personnel. We've not got a midfielder capable of being a regista currently but I think that's negated by Maguire being able to step out as a ball playing centre half and Wilf covering. But switching flanks is definitely something that preseason has seen us do. 

I think 433 is definitely our best set up currently but being able to switch to 442 Diamond isn't that much of a stretch if one of Albrighton or Perez comes back deeper to be in midfield and as the 3 narrows down to a 2 up top, it'll open up the space for the fullback to be in as play is switched. 

[Paninistickers]

Felt the full backs were more vulnerable than with our normal 433 (or 4231) ....bit like the fact that we are going to need more than one system next Saturday season. 

 

As everyone else felt, this formation wasn't set up well for Tielemans. 

[LC/FC]

17 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Felt the full backs were more vulnerable than with our normal 433 (or 4231) ....bit like the fact that we are going to need more than one system next Saturday season. 

 

As everyone else felt, this formation wasn't set up well for Tielemans. 

They were in the first half. Our defence in the first half was stretched and shakey due to the Diamond being way too big and everyone playing static positions so cover and support were barely there. 2nd half with more support on the wings, we played and pushed up loads better.

I did say in the match thread that I'd like Tielemans at the top of the Diamond and Maddison being on the left, as it may allow him to direct play a bit more, but Rodgers preferred him as the box to box and Maddison as playmaker.

Also as Hamza likes to roam and chase, he might be suited to being box to box more and having Ndidi or Mendy as the sitting anchor might help with our shape better in this system. 

[Nicolo Barella]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

For me it was the reason why we were under par today for most of the match, players weren't quite used to their roles within the system. That said, it takes time to bed in a new way of playing and I'm sure we will see it again as Rodgers has used it throughout his career. I would love to know why he switches to it sometimes? Is it to deal with teams that have better technical players, or is it to be used against teams that sit back? I think when playing the system we look less dynamic and fluid, but perhaps more direct and able to deal with more attritional games. In his post match interview, Rodgers mentioned that Stoke play a diamond formation so it feels like he might have requested this very specific fixture for the team to see first hand how they need to position themselves? I found that to be a very interesting tidbit.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said but would add that I feel that Tielemans wasn't able to get on the ball as much as he did against Cambridge and I think we look a better team when get gets on the ball as much as possible. For that reason I am personally a bigger fan of the 433, but the diamond might be more effective against the top clubs in the league? We will have to see when he decides to wheel it out.

 

I didn't think pressing was too bad though I think it was more that we were a bit wasteful once we got the ball back compared to Cambridge midweek. But I know what you mean in that in our previous games the high press was almost like a choke hold in an MMA fight, with the opposition unable to get out, whereas today Stoke beat the press on a number of occasions and we were in big trouble. In fact that might be the reason why he swithces formations sometimes.

 

Perez gets into very good spaces and positions but I thought he was a bit indifferent today. Too much of a passenger and not affecting the game as much as I would like him to, especially compared to Marc Albrighton who has been superb in every game he's played in preseason. He could be a revelation this season because he's finishing chances now, which he's never really done before.

 

Totally agree with you about Riccy P. In my opinion he is actually a world class player, I genuinely think across Europe there aren't many better right backs right now. He does it all!

 

P:S for those who want to know, we played our version of Liverpool's diamond system when Rodgers as in charge, with Maddison behind the front two.

 

 

I mean, maybe we also did better against Cambridge because they're worse than Stoke?

[jeffschlupp]

I thought it was bizarre, I couldn't even tell it was a diamond for most of the game.

 

Moving Perez central just meant Youri had to cover him every time going in both directions. Ricardo absolutely cleared up McClean in the second half because a 2v1 was on, and in attack Tielemans was the only one willing to push into the space wide right.

 

We've managed to put Ayoze in the centre where he can't get the ball; Albrighton in the middle where he can't cross, Tielemans on the flank where he will be exposed for pace, and the whole system seems to isolate Vardy even further.

 

Surely you want your players doing what they're best at?

[LC/FC]

https://www.lcfc.com/news/1295896/rodgers-praises-citys-tactical-intelligence

 

From what Rodgers is saying, he just wants us to have different systems so we can be tactically flexible. 

[StriderHiryu]

45 minutes ago, Nicolo Barella said:

I mean, maybe we also did better against Cambridge because they're worse than Stoke?

Well you got me there!

 

I would argue that in terms of controlling the game, and general slickness to our play that we were much better in the Cambridge match. But for sure the quality of opposition has to be taken into account and Stoke are a much better outfit.

[FireFox]

Diamond didn't look awful, but I'm not convinced we should start or finish games with it.

 

[jeffschlupp]

Interestingly BR said post-match the idea was 4-3-3 without the ball and 3-4-3 on the ball to push Fuchs and Ricardo up the pitch.

 

Schmeichel

Evans Choudhury Soyuncu

Ricardo Tielemans Praet Fuchs

Perez Vardy Maddison

 

So we've seen bits of a 4-3-3, 3-4-3, a diamond, a 3-5-2 for the last 20 minutes, and a 4-2-3-1 at times versus Wolves. The Tinkerman?

Edited 25 August 2019 by jeffschlupp

[FireFox]

47 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

 

Schmeichel

Evans Choudhury Soyuncu

Ricardo Tielemans Choudhury Fuchs

Perez Vardy Maddison

I didn't think we could get away with playing Hamza and his clone at the same time. Surely the refs would have noticed two players with that hair?!

[Vardinio'sCat]

49 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

Interestingly BR said post-match the idea was 4-3-3 without the ball and 3-4-3 on the ball to push Fuchs and Ricardo up the pitch.

 

Schmeichel

Evans Choudhury Soyuncu

Ricardo Tielemans Choudhury Fuchs

Perez Vardy Maddison

 

So we've seen bits of a 4-3-3, 3-4-3, a diamond, a 3-5-2 for the last 20 minutes, and a 4-2-3-1 at times versus Wolves. The Tinkerman?

 

No wonder Hamza looked busy... 

 

 

[StriderHiryu]

4 hours ago, FireFox said:

Diamond didn't look awful, but I'm not convinced we should start or finish games with it.

 

It wasn’t the diamond today, it was just Perez and Maddison were much more narrow than the style used last year. If / when we play the diamond Maddison won’t drift wide and Perez will stay more central. 

 

One of the best ways to tell is looking at the team shape at kick off. With this lineup I expected the diamond but it wasn’t.

 

@jeffschlupp‘s point about 343 in attack also is true - Hamza dropped into make 3 at the back so both fullbacks could provide width. Usually when we play one fullback stays back whilst the other raids but not so much today. Think that’s because we know Sheffield United don’t really have fast forwards who play on the break and instead go for crosses into the box, aided by their overlapping centre backs. 

 

One other thing to note is we are marking zonally which is one reason why we conceded. Two players were in Evans zone and none in Soyuncu’s. I’ll be interested to know if Rodgers considers it to be Caglar’s mistake or a structural issue. Since losing Maguire we are better at dealing with fast players but worse at aerial threats. 

[Deeg67]

I hate zonal marking.  Creates far more problems than it solves.

 

I could see a scenario developing where Evans plays every match when healthy, and Soyuncu and Benkovic rotate based on the opposition.  When we're up against teams without a lot of pace up front but strength and height, Benkovic may be a better choice.  Throwing Wes on to hang on for dear life isn't an option long-term.

[Nicolo Barella]

5 hours ago, Deeg67 said:

I hate zonal marking.  Creates far more problems than it solves.

 

I could see a scenario developing where Evans plays every match when healthy, and Soyuncu and Benkovic rotate based on the opposition.  When we're up against teams without a lot of pace up front but strength and height, Benkovic may be a better choice.  Throwing Wes on to hang on for dear life isn't an option long-term.

Benkoviv has pace, he can perform against both types of player.

[Danny Clender]

7 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

It wasn’t the diamond today, it was just Perez and Maddison were much more narrow than the style used last year. If / when we play the diamond Maddison won’t drift wide and Perez will stay more central. 

 

One of the best ways to tell is looking at the team shape at kick off. With this lineup I expected the diamond but it wasn’t.

 

@jeffschlupp‘s point about 343 in attack also is true - Hamza dropped into make 3 at the back so both fullbacks could provide width. Usually when we play one fullback stays back whilst the other raids but not so much today. Think that’s because we know Sheffield United don’t really have fast forwards who play on the break and instead go for crosses into the box, aided by their overlapping centre backs. 

 

One other thing to note is we are marking zonally which is one reason why we conceded. Two players were in Evans zone and none in Soyuncu’s. I’ll be interested to know if Rodgers considers it to be Caglar’s mistake or a structural issue. Since losing Maguire we are better at dealing with fast players but worse at aerial threats. 

How do you see Perez improving? 

[StriderHiryu]

11 minutes ago, Danny Clender said:

How do you see Perez improving? 

By being less shite!  

 

On a serious note his structural play is actually quite strong. He stands in the correct positions and successfully supports the high press with his movement, work rate and tenacity. The first goal came through his challenge.

 

Where he needs to improve is in his work on the ball and positioning when in the offensive phase of the game. Maddison and Vardy are on the same wavelength and work very well together. Already in his brief stint here Ayoze has brain farted when we were one pass away from putting Vardy in through on goal multiple times in multiple matches. Like many people on the team he needs to play a better ball, faster. To defend him a little bit, Jamie Vardy is the polar opposite in play style to Salomon Rondon who he played with last season and he’s in an adaptive period. 

 

The passage of play where Maddison, Vardy and Perez all combined was promising and that’s what we want to see more of from Perez. In that moment his running and support play offensively was good. So far he’s been hauled off in every game and he can’t have any complaints. 

[Danny Clender]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

By being less shite!  

 

On a serious note his structural play is actually quite strong. He stands in the correct positions and successfully supports the high press with his movement, work rate and tenacity. The first goal came through his challenge.

 

Where he needs to improve is in his work on the ball and positioning when in the offensive phase of the game. Maddison and Vardy are on the same wavelength and work very well together. Already in his brief stint here Ayoze has brain farted when we were one pass away from putting Vardy in through on goal multiple times in multiple matches. Like many people on the team he needs to play a better ball, faster. To defend him a little bit, Jamie Vardy is the polar opposite in play style to Salomon Rondon who he played with last season and he’s in an adaptive period. 

 

The passage of play where Maddison, Vardy and Perez all combined was promising and that’s what we want to see more of from Perez. In that moment his running and support play offensively was good. So far he’s been hauled off in every game and he can’t have any complaints. 

I hope that's what BR says to him on monday "be less shite Ayoze, ok?"

The Maddison Vardy connection is there, but can we not have that with Perez too?

Why am I thinking he's not in the box enough?

[StriderHiryu]

59 minutes ago, Danny Clender said:

I hope that's what BR says to him on monday "be less shite Ayoze, ok?"

The Maddison Vardy connection is there, but can we not have that with Perez too?

Why am I thinking he's not in the box enough?

Maybe against Sheffield United he didn’t get into the box as much as previous games but in general, I personally think he has been the most progressive of the other attackers. But overall Perez can’t have got more than 6/10 in any league game so far whereas in preseason he was putting in 8/10 performances. 

 

For sure though our attack hasn’t quite clicked like it seemed to do in preseason yet, which makes the whole team look a little worse. But there are lots of good signs. Actually to end on an optimistic note I’d like to point out that Liverpool under Rodgers (and even Klopp) didn’t develop a lethal attack overnight. It took both teams quite a while to gel but when they did they became breathtaking. 

 

Rodgers overall managerial record suggests he’ll get it right eventually!

[Nicolo Barella]

I think the 4-3-1-2 will probably work best against the Top 6 once Praet has gelled in, with Hamza and Praet acting as the two "outside" mids. Traditionally the two "mezzalas" bomb forwards whilst also providing defensive cover, and I don't think either of Tielemans or Maddison are equipped for that role. With Barnes/Perez competing for the second striker position, and Maddison as the 10, that's a tough outfit for any Top 6 side to face. Praet could even bring some attacking prescence to the left flank that neither Chilwell or Maddison bring. 

 

It isn't as nice against lower tier teams however as it lacks the ball progression and threat the 4-3-3 brings. Could be a great option to kill the game though.

 

Vardy Perez

Maddison 

Praet Ndidi Hamza

Chilwell Soyuncu Evans Ricardo

[FireFox]

Beautiful representation of the 4-1-4-1 in attack. Based on average position of all the touches from a player.

 

https://twitter.com/TheLCFCStatMan/status/1167882585311105024?s=19

[HighPeakFox]

3 minutes ago, FireFox said:

Beautiful representation of the 4-1-4-1 in attack. Based on average position of all the touches from a player.

 

https://twitter.com/TheLCFCStatMan/status/1167882585311105024?s=19

3-6-1 then!

[Nicolo Barella]

I've been thinking about it, and imo the reason Brendan's mooted 4-3-1-2 hasn't come to pass yet is because of Chilwell's limitations as a left back. He's excellent at progressing the ball but once he's in an advanced position he just has terrible link up and crossing, and in the 4-3-1-2 he'd be expected to provide most of the width in attack. Everyone else in the formation seems like they've got their stuff together, except maybe Tielemans who appears to prefer to play with wide players. 

[ARM1968]

27 minutes ago, Nicolo Barella said:

I've been thinking about it, and imo the reason Brendan's mooted 4-3-1-2 hasn't come to pass yet is because of Chilwell's limitations as a left back. He's excellent at progressing the ball but once he's in an advanced position he just has terrible link up and crossing, and in the 4-3-1-2 he'd be expected to provide most of the width in attack. Everyone else in the formation seems like they've got their stuff together, except maybe Tielemans who appears to prefer to play with wide players. 

This should be where Brendan’s vaunted coaching ability pays off surely. Get Chilwell crossing properly and sort Yuri out.