Brexit!

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, Beechey said:

I can't either, but it's not right that os many people think this agreement is the end state.

We could still move to any other kind of Brexit even after this agreement is ratified.

 

Freedom of Movement does continue, yes. Was merely a point. I think at some point we will collectively come to the conclusion that migration is not the major issue it's made out to be.

 

I've barely heard anyone mention migration as an issue for months, if not a year or more.

 

That may be because people are waiting for Brexit to "solve the problem" - and it might change if flows start again from Turkey, or even in response to this lorry tragedy with 39 dead in Essex.

But when I've heard/seen Leave voters arguing for Brexit, it's all been the democratic argument, referendum mandate & "taking back control", not about a need to address migration or indeed for Brexit to achieve anything particular.

[leicsmac]

33 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Of course it is. The people hunting power rarely give a crap about how they get it. Just like the tactical voting at the last election to gain labour seats. 

 

Hell I'd dare suggest that if that dude who works with Labour  got back to his postal vote rigging ways and that tipped the balance of power, they'd only be a tiny majority of Labour supporters who were mad about it. 

That's about the size of it right now, yeah.

 

That doesn't mean that one has to like it, accept it as a fait accompli, and/or seek better ways for social cohesion, though.

[Finnaldo]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I agree with your points about the nature of Farage's politics and him targeting Tory voters in the long-term - if he's in it for the long-term (his attitude at this election will answer that).

 

But I was making a different point about the target seats at the imminent election: 

Labour Leave seats constitute the vast majority of the seats the Tories need to win - but are also the seats where Farage has a chance in the short-term, making any electoral pact more difficult. 

True, my point was more a side note 

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I've barely heard anyone mention migration as an issue for months, if not a year or more.

 

That may be because people are waiting for Brexit to "solve the problem" - and it might change if flows start again from Turkey, or even in response to this lorry tragedy with 39 dead in Essex.

But when I've heard/seen Leave voters arguing for Brexit, it's all been the democratic argument, referendum mandate & "taking back control", not about a need to address migration or indeed for Brexit to achieve anything particular.

Probably because we’ve not been called racists for months 

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Probably because we’ve not been called racists for months 

Swinson is giving it a good go - at least she managed nearly a week of civil discourse this time.

 

Maybe we could invite Justin Trudeau over? 

[The Horse's Mouth]

Jo Swinson and her scary nashers need to get the bike 

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Swinson is giving it a good go - at least she managed nearly a week of civil discourse this time.

 

She is irrelevant apparently  @LiberalFox

 

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

Maybe we could invite Justin Trudeau over? 

 

[Alf Bentley]

On 22/10/2019 at 13:47, Voll Blau said:

Peter Oborne pulling no punches...

 

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/

 

Oborne was on Channel 4 News tonight, following this up. Hard-hitting accusations, as per your link.

 

Suggesting that the likes of Kuennsberg and Peston, never mind press media, are allowing themselves to be manipulated by the Cummings crew so as to become mouthpieces for his propaganda and lies.....

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/peter-oborne-downing-street-putting-out-fake-news

 

There are many ways of undermining free and fair democracy, beyond less subtle stuff like suspending parliament...

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Oborne was on Channel 4 News tonight, following this up. Hard-hitting accusations, as per your link.

 

Suggesting that the likes of Kuennsberg and Peston, never mind press media, are allowing themselves to be manipulated by the Cummings crew so as to become mouthpieces for his propaganda and lies.....

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/peter-oborne-downing-street-putting-out-fake-news

 

There are many ways of undermining free and fair democracy, beyond less subtle stuff like suspending parliament...

Sounds like it’s straight out of Alastair Campbell’s playbook.

[Alf Bentley]

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Sounds like it’s straight out of Alastair Campbell’s playbook.

 

Fair comment, to an extent. I certainly remember his "dodgy dossier". Indeed, I was on the big protest march against Bush/Blair's Iraq War - supported by Campbell's distortions.

 

Mind you, at least Campbell was identifiable, doing his own dirty work. This takes it a stage further, unidentified "No. 10 sources" feeding lies and propaganda to leading journalists (BBC/ITV, too, not yer Tory red-tops) and persuading THEM to spread it.

 

Oborne's main criticism, in a way, is of journalists for not questioning the propaganda they're fed. Political regimes have always spread propaganda, even if Campbell ratcheted up - and Cummings is ratcheting it even further.

 

Edited 23 October 2019 by Alf Bentley

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Fair comment, to an extent. I certainly remember his "dodgy dossier". Indeed, I was on the big protest march against Bush/Blair's Iraq War - supported by Campbell's distortions.

 

Mind you, at least Campbell was identifiable, doing his own dirty work. This takes it a stage further, unidentified "No. 10 sources" feeding lies and propaganda to leading journalists (BBC/ITV, too, not yer Tory red-tops) and persuading THEM to spread it.

 

Oborne's main criticism, in a way, is of journalists for not questioning the propaganda they're fed. Political regimes have always spread propaganda, even if Campbell ratcheted up - and Cummings is ratcheting it even further.

 

Journalists quality is certainly on the decline, I do agree. I wonder how much of that is down to social media and them rarely being the first to break any news these days?

 

By the time the red tops are published, we’ve discussed, argued and moved on to other things. It was always a cut throat business.....

[Alf Bentley]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Journalists quality is certainly on the decline, I do agree. I wonder how much of that is down to social media and them rarely being the first to break any news these days?

 

By the time the red tops are published, we’ve discussed, argued and moved on to other things. It was always a cut throat business.....

 

That's a good point re. print media. Doesn't really apply to top TV journalists like Kuenssberg & Peston, who Oborne targets, does it? 

 

They're presumably getting news as quickly as social media - and often have privileged sources...indeed them bigging themselves up by passing on "news" from privileged sources seems to be part of the problem.

[Strokes]

25 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

That's a good point re. print media. Doesn't really apply to top TV journalists like Kuenssberg & Peston, who Oborne targets, does it? 

 

They're presumably getting news as quickly as social media - and often have privileged sources...indeed them bigging themselves up by passing on "news" from privileged sources seems to be part of the problem.

I think it does, as although they can push it out faster, people are on the internet 24/7. I bet you now, 95% of the mistakes Kussenburg and Peston have made, is because they’ve released the information on social media before broadcast. Probably in an attempt to make sure they are credited for breaking it.

Lack of time for due diligence seems to be the theme of the week 

[Guest MattP]

Once this extension is secured I am looking forward to seeing the excuses Labour make for avoiding a General Election, given how firm they were in telling us they would vote for one as soon as the extension was secured.

Does anybody think they would be turning it down if they were 15 points ahead in the polls rather than behind?

[Milo]

12 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Oborne was on Channel 4 News tonight, following this up. Hard-hitting accusations, as per your link.

 

Suggesting that the likes of Kuennsberg and Peston, never mind press media, are allowing themselves to be manipulated by the Cummings crew so as to become mouthpieces for his propaganda and lies.....

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/peter-oborne-downing-street-putting-out-fake-news

 

There are many ways of undermining free and fair democracy, beyond less subtle stuff like suspending parliament...

Reading between the lines, I take it you are not a big fan of Cummings?

 

 

 

To be honest, I felt the same about Alastair Campbell - maybe a little less creepy, but just as odious (and unelected). 

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Milo said:

Reading between the lines, I take it you are not a big fan of Cummings?

 

 

 

To be honest, I felt the same about Alastair Campbell - maybe a little less creepy, but just as odious (and unelected). 

 

Cummings sounds an obnoxious and, more importantly, dangerous bloke - dangerous for democracy. I can understand people having similar feelings about Campbell.

 

But he's only dangerous insofar as journalists allow themselves to be manipulated into promoting his messages.

Politicians have had media managers for decades. But it's the job of quality journalists to be sceptical and challenge their messages, not just pass them on unfiltered.

That seems to be Oborne's main point - an attack on the journalists more than on Cummings or hardnut political media manipulators, who arguably fulfil a useful function....so long as their influence isn't unchallenged.

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Cummings sounds an obnoxious and, more importantly, dangerous bloke - dangerous for democracy. I can understand people having similar feelings about Campbell

Why do you find him dangerous for democracy? As far as I can see he's trying to implement the referendum result and if parliament doesn't want to do that they have the option of a General Election instead, I don't see how that can be dangerous for democracy. If anything I'd said the "people's vote" crowd and the Liberal Democrats are the biggest dangers to democracy in our country at the minute by discarding losers consent and wanting to either revoke the decision taken or keep voting until we change our mind.

For all the talk about him and Boris circumventing or breaking the law when it came to the Benn Act they didn't and as soon as the supreme court ruled against them on prorogation they came back to parliament.

 

He certainly has the "Alistairs Campbell's" about him but he's nowhere near his level yet, this was a bloke who turned the civil service and the media into his own propaganda machine through fear and intimidation.

[Alf Bentley]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Why do you find him dangerous for democracy?

 

Sorry, no time for long debates today due to work. Oborne's article explains a lot of it.

 

Meanwhile, I completely missed this a few days ago: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50100201

 

"Senior EU officials have reacted angrily after a handful of member states, led by France, blocked Albania and North Macedonia from starting membership talks.

Leaders of the bloc's 28 states spent hours in heated debate over the issue but failed to agree, diplomats said. The failure came despite a recommendation from the European Commission and the European Parliament.

Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker said it was "a major historic mistake". "I hope it will only be temporary," he said. EU Council President Donald Tusk echoed his sentiments, saying: "It's not a failure, it's a mistake. I feel really embarrassed."

[Milo]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Cummings sounds an obnoxious and, more importantly, dangerous bloke - dangerous for democracy. I can understand people having similar feelings about Campbell.

 

But he's only dangerous insofar as journalists allow themselves to be manipulated into promoting his messages.

Politicians have had media managers for decades. But it's the job of quality journalists to be sceptical and challenge their messages, not just pass them on unfiltered.

That seems to be Oborne's main point - an attack on the journalists more than on Cummings or hardnut political media manipulators, who arguably fulfil a useful function....so long as their influence isn't unchallenged.

Agree, but surely that also applies to the newspapers (and newspaper owners) who use their presence to push their own personal/political agendas? Have you seen the state of the press in this country?

 

The public can choose to back or ignore any journalist or publication that suits their political viewpoint. 

 

Is it so different now than at any other time through the ages? 

 

 

 

 

[RoboFox]

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-skips-questioning-by-house-of-commons-liaison-committee-to-focus-on-brexit-11843263

 

Irresponsible, lying sack of shit. 

 

Three times he promised to attend, three times he's cancelled. Refusing to have his actions scrutinised, I wonder why? The whole system is breaking down. He refuses to be held to account.

 

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but imagine the uproar if he was behaving in this way.

 

Edited 24 October 2019 by RoboFox

[Guest MattP]

10 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-skips-questioning-by-house-of-commons-liaison-committee-to-focus-on-brexit-11843263

 

Irresponsible, lying sack of shit. 

 

Three times he promised to attend, three times he's cancelled. Refusing to have his actions scrutinised, I wonder why? The whole system is breaking down. He refuses to be held to account.

To be fair he's got more important things to be doing than this at the minute, he should be in Europe discussing the extension.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Milo said:

Reading between the lines, I take it you are not a big fan of Cummings?

 

 

 

To be honest, I felt the same about Alastair Campbell - maybe a little less creepy, but just as odious (and unelected). 

 

57 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Cummings sounds an obnoxious and, more importantly, dangerous bloke - dangerous for democracy. I can understand people having similar feelings about Campbell.

 

But he's only dangerous insofar as journalists allow themselves to be manipulated into promoting his messages.

Politicians have had media managers for decades. But it's the job of quality journalists to be sceptical and challenge their messages, not just pass them on unfiltered.

That seems to be Oborne's main point - an attack on the journalists more than on Cummings or hardnut political media manipulators, who arguably fulfil a useful function....so long as their influence isn't unchallenged.

If we're talking purely about shadowy power, I think Arron Banks is a fair bit more odious, obnoxious and dangerous than either.

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Cummings sounds an obnoxious and, more importantly, dangerous bloke - dangerous for democracy. I can understand people having similar feelings about Campbell.

 

I echo Matts statements on this. If you find him dangerous for democracy then fair enough, but surely Lib Dems and the revoking of Article 50 are even more of a danger? If it's purely revoked then how the hell are we was a country ever going to respect the result of anything ever again?

[Carl the Llama]

7 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I echo Matts statements on this. If you find him dangerous for democracy then fair enough, but surely Lib Dems and the revoking of Article 50 are even more of a danger? If it's purely revoked then how the hell are we was a country ever going to respect the result of anything ever again?

Presumably the same way you learn to trust the paramedic who saves your life after you've decided to ignore their warnings about jumping out of a 3rd story window.

[Leicester_Loyal]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Presumably the same way you learn to trust the paramedic who saves your life after you've decided to ignore their warnings about jumping out of a 3rd story window.

This is the scary thing on here. Many people are willing to just turn over a democratic vote because they voted the opposing way. If it happens, you've got to remember one day in the future it'll happen to something you voted for, at which point you'll cry 'NAZI, EXTREMIST, DICTATOR' and expect the vote to be honoured.

Edited 24 October 2019 by Leicester_Loyal