Brexit!

[Alf Bentley]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

We would buy it mate if they hadn't taken every single opportunity to block Brexit, and we know damn well that every amendment will be designed to do just that.  They want to force it past the 31st if only to piss off Boris and make him look bad, despite the fact that his hard line on the 31st is the reason they have a deal on the table - a deal they said was impossible.  

If you think they really care about the detail of the deal and are not just trying to split the leave vote to give themselves a chance of avoiding a wipeout in the coming GE you are mistaken I fear.

 

Some might seek to block every form of Brexit, but others wouldn't - they'd just want to scrutinise and potentially table amendments.

 

It's going to go past 31st Oct, anyway, so BJ will just have to lose a bit of face - his fault for painting himself into a corner with his "die in a ditch" bluster.

 

Your claim that the deal is due to his "hard line on the 31st" is highly dubious. For a start, the EU essentially offered this same deal (re. the backstop / Irish Sea) to May more than a year ago. She only rejected it at the behest of the DUP.

And the EU has made it clear from the outset that they'd accept a distant Canada-style relationship if the UK opted for that and if the Irish border issue was resolved. Of course, they'll be loath to agree a generous FTA if the UK pursues Johnson's plans to diverge on all sorts of rights, but that will be sorted out during future negotiations.

 

I certainly DO think Labour MPs care about the detail of the deal (it will affect their country & their constituents). But I'm realistic enough to accept that electoral tactics come into it, too.....but that applies to the Tories, as well.

Are you seriously suggesting that Johnson would have called for an election in Oct/Nov/Dec if the polls were showing him well behind - and likely to do better by delaying an election? 

 

Johnson has an opportunity to try to get his Brexit deal done within a few weeks. If Labour tried to push it longer than that, the public would see that they were being unreasonable. If it doesn't work and the deal is rejected, he'd have a strong case to call for an election - and the time to do it before the likely January extension expires. Again, if the deal was rejected & Labour persisted in blocking an election, they'd face public opprobrium. What Boris is doing is cynical abuse of democracy in pursuit of total power - and it not only risks our democracy, but it risks your precious Brexit.

[Charl91]

13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

- a deal they said was impossible.  

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

 

Getting that fantasy deal that Boris wanted was impossible. We were told the EU were going to blink, and funnily enough, they didn't. No, instead we shifted our own red lines, Boris shafted the DUP and Boris did something that Boris said no conservative PM should ever do, which was essentially to leave NI in the EU (and try and fudge it enough to make it appear that this isn't the case). Boris capitulated when he realised the German car makers and French wine makers weren't going to rush in en masse to offer him his Unicorn deal, and that he couldn't just crash out anymore (which I think was his actual intention) because instead he'd be forced to ask for an extension - something that he's ended up having to do anyway  

 

He didn't perform some amazing feat of negotiation. He backed down and we got what we pretty much always could have got, had we asked for it initially.  

[Leicester_Loyal]

Actually the EU said negotiations would not open again, which they were...

 

We've just had 3 years of arguing in here haven't we, Brexit really has split the country down the middle

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Tied completely to them  Not very Brexity, and the worst of both worlds.  Like a divorce where you can't move out or sell the house and share Tesco deliveries.

 

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I think remainers need to decide what sort of Remain they want, a hard remain or soft remain. Maybe we should put it to another refendum to decide.

As I'm constantly telling you lads, *any* kind of Brexit fulfills the answer you gave to the question on the ballot paper perfectly well. I answered the opposite way because I believed we were better off staying in the European Union, however that may turn out. That's what the question asked us.

 

You can say something's "not the kind of Brexit I want/thought I was going to get", but if we are no longer members of the European Union then it is patently untrue to say you've haven't got Brexit. You have.

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

 

As I'm constantly telling you lads, *any* kind of Brexit fulfills the answer you gave to the question on the ballot paper perfectly well. I answered the opposite way because I believed we were better off staying in the European Union, however that may turn out. That's what the question asked us.

 

You can say something's "not the kind of Brexit I want/thought I was going to get", but if we are no longer members of the European Union then it is patently untrue to say you've haven't got Brexit. You have.

Honestly I'm not too fussed at the moment. People in this country aren't stupid, so if it's Brexit in name only to 'fulfil' the question that's fine, but I think we'll see the rise of Farage and the Brexit Party if it happens, just like we did prior to 2015.

Edited 25 October 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Actually the EU said negotiations would not open again, which they were...

 

We've just had 3 years of arguing in here haven't we, Brexit really has split the country down the middle

Yep.

 

And as that is the case, with hindsight, should the damn thing really have been set in motion in the first place, given that pretty much every possible way out henceforth is likely going to result in serious unrest from very annoyed people?

[Charl91]

11 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Actually the EU said negotiations would not open again, which they were...

 

 

And meanwhile Johnson is somewhere in his ditch...? (If the ditch was in front of Heathrow, he could kill two birds with one stone). You don't want to play the game of who-didn't-tell-the-truth-the-most when you're supporting team Boris.

 

I suppose you're right though - technically EU did reopen negotiations, though I suspect the reason they said that in the first place was to give a hand to May to help get her deal through parliament. And while it's true that the EU did reopen negotiations, it was only to essentially agree to something that had already been agreed upon before (and rejected by us), rather than wholesale renegotiating a new deal.

 

I think, in laymans terms, their message was "You're not getting a better deal than this".

Edited 25 October 2019 by Charl91

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I've never once said anything about what the leave campaign said, I'm merely pointing out that WTO is the default and has always been? Bobby stated this was only known after the refendum, which I'm disagreeing with, as Cameron and others have said previously?

 

Again, to make it even clearer, I'm not talking about the leave campaign or anything they've said, I'm pointing out WTO terms if a deal wasn't agreed has ALWAYS been the default option (as likely/unlikely as it was), which you seem to be agreeing with me on, hence my confusion.

 

I'm glad if we're now clear that WTO was always the default - and that Leave campaigners did not suggest it as a destination until after the referendum. That's what I've said all along.

 

Bobby's comment is quite clear to me. He explicitly refers to "Leave's message" pre-referendum & post-referendum.

 

So, you're back to Cameron? Someone you presumably view as an actual or borderline liar who distorted reality with his Project Fear? And I have sympathy for that view - Project Fear did exist, even if it is exaggerated.

But why would you base your arguments on the statements of an opponent who had an axe to grind and was depicting Brexit to suit his campaign?

Next summer, if Guardiola says Maddison is worth 50p & a bag of crisps, would you base your analysis on his statements, even knowing he had his own agenda?

 

A WTO exit was always the default. During the referendum campaign, Leave tried to pretend there was no chance of it happening. Remain used it (unsuccessfully) as part of Project Fear to scare voters to back Remain.....though, ironically, we've come pretty close to it, so maybe Cameron was more honest than we thought? Then, double irony, you use Project Fear Remainer claims as the foundation for your normalisation of No Deal.....which nobody proposed in 2016.

[Leicester_Loyal]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'm glad if we're now clear that WTO was always the default - and that Leave campaigners did not suggest it as a destination until after the referendum. That's what I've said all along.

 

Bobby's comment is quite clear to me. He explicitly refers to "Leave's message" pre-referendum & post-referendum.

 

So, you're back to Cameron? Someone you presumably view as an actual or borderline liar who distorted reality with his Project Fear? And I have sympathy for that view - Project Fear did exist, even if it is exaggerated.

But why would you base your arguments on the statements of an opponent who had an axe to grind and was depicting Brexit to suit his campaign?

Next summer, if Guardiola says Maddison is worth 50p & a bag of crisps, would you base your analysis on his statements, even knowing he had his own agenda?

 

A WTO exit was always the default. During the referendum campaign, Leave tried to pretend there was no chance of it happening. Remain used it (unsuccessfully) as part of Project Fear to scare voters to back Remain.....though, ironically, we've come pretty close to it, so maybe Cameron was more honest than we thought? Then, double irony, you use Project Fear Remainer claims as the foundation for your normalisation of No Deal.....which nobody proposed in 2016.

You’re going off on a tangent here aren’t you. Thank you for agreeing that WTO was the default option and always was, that’s all I needed to hear. 

Edited 25 October 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[Charl91]

7 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 People in this country aren't stupid, 

I'd disagree. I'd say there's a lot of stupid people in this country. If I was going to estimate it, I'd probably say roughly 52%.

 

 

(Ok, I apologise for the poor trolling attempt)

 

 

 

Edited 25 October 2019 by Charl91

[Leicester_Loyal]

Anyone changed their mind on Brexit yet? Seems to be the same people with the same point of view as 3 years ago

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Anyone changed their mind on Brexit yet? Seems to be the same people with the same point of view as 3 years ago

I’ve changed my mind, I don’t want leave or remain. I want us to stay in limbo forever. I think we should revoke and trigger article 50 for forever more. 

[Guest MattP]

10 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Anyone changed their mind on Brexit yet? Seems to be the same people with the same point of view as 3 years ago

I'm just laughing at it all now.

We have a government that has completely collapsed, but the opposition won't call an election to remove the collapsed government because they are so incompetent the British public are likely to still take a chance reviving the collapsed government rather than vote in the ones trying to hold the collapsed government to account.

So we have a collapsed government possibly about to go on strike, with an opposition pretending to try to take over if they do, but not being able to do so as neither polticians not voters are prepared to let them.

We are certainly living in incredible times though, historians will love this, we've had the Merciless Parliament, the Rump Parliament, the Parliament of Bats etc (I'm sure the those who take a keen interest in the history of Leicester will know this one) - I'd love to fast forward 500 years to see what they call this one.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm just laughing at it all now.

We have a government that has completely collapsed, but the opposition won't call an election to remove the collapsed government because they are so incompetent the British public are likely to still take a chance reviving the collapsed government rather than vote in the ones trying to hold the collapsed government to account.

So we have a collapsed government possibly about to go on strike, with an opposition pretending to try to take over if they do, but not being able to do so as neither polticians not voters are prepared to let them.

We are certainly living in incredible times though, historians will love this, we've had the Merciless Parliament, the Rump Parliament, the Parliament of Bats etc (I'm sure the those who take a keen interest in the history of Leicester will know this one) - I'd love to fast forward 500 years to see what they call this one.

Nothing, sadly - all the preceding records are lost in the Great Water Wars of 2065-2080.

[lgfualol]

Huh, how are France causing problems with the delay length? I thought the EU was a dictatorship that didnt allow such behaviour.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Huh, how are France causing problems with the delay length? 

They aren't causing problems, they are doing exactly what our parliament allowed them to do when it passed the Benn Act.

 

Hence why it was called and is a surrender bill.

[lgfualol]

30 minutes ago, MattP said:

They aren't causing problems, they are doing exactly what our parliament allowed them to do when it passed the Benn Act.

 

Hence why it was called and is a surrender bill.

Sooo.. The EU are still discussing extension length which depends on whether we have a general election, and we are waiting on what extension the EU grant us before we go for a general election. If that is correct, that is pretty funny.

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Sooo.. The EU are still discussing extension length which depends on whether we have a general election, and we are waiting on what extension the EU grant us before we go for a general election. If that is correct, that is pretty funny.

That it pretty much where we are

[Milo]

Are Boris and Macron in bed together (I know BJ isn’t too fussy)

 

If so, is that not a stroke of genius on his part, to get Macron to veto an extension...?

 

 

[Strokes]

I always liked the french.

[HappyHamza]

20 hours ago, Milo said:

Are Boris and Macron in bed together (I know BJ isn’t too fussy)

 

If so, is that not a stroke of genius on his part, to get Macron to veto an extension...?

 

 

He hasn't vetoed an extension. He just wants a short one initially. 

 

Macron has his own domestic issues and the last thing anybody wants to be responsible for is the catastrophe that would be no deal (for everybody). 

 

Mavron wants to be seen to be pushing the agenda forward as domestically he's pushed a story of betting brexit done and then leading Europe forward.  He needs to be shown to be trying to hurry brexit along in the same way boris does. 

[ousefox]

It really is crazy how well Johnson is doing in the polls. He seems to be in Trump territory of being untouchable. No headline/defeat/criticism seems to damage him; whether that comes from the left or Farage.

 

I know having the most ****ing awful, incompetent leader of the opposition in history doesn't help, and a right wing media lapping him up, but it still surprises me.

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, ousefox said:

It really is crazy how well Johnson is doing in the polls. He seems to be in Trump territory of being untouchable. No headline/defeat/criticism seems to damage him; whether that comes from the left or Farage.

 

I know having the most ****ing awful, incompetent leader of the opposition in history doesn't help, and a right wing media lapping him up, but it still surprises me.

He’s seen by the public as the good old British bulldog with a Churchillian spirit who ignores the rules, whereas Corbyn is seen as the sneaky work shy union official ( which he is) he’s bound to be ahead in the polls. 

[Mike Oxlong]

2 hours ago, ousefox said:

It really is crazy how well Johnson is doing in the polls. He seems to be in Trump territory of being untouchable. No headline/defeat/criticism seems to damage him; whether that comes from the left or Farage.

 

I know having the most ****ing awful, incompetent leader of the opposition in history doesn't help, and a right wing media lapping him up, but it still surprises me.

Charisma and bullshit can carry you a long way 

 

And the fact that Corbyn lacks charisma and ability also helps of course 

[WigstonWanderer]

3 hours ago, ousefox said:

It really is crazy how well Johnson is doing in the polls. He seems to be in Trump territory of being untouchable. No headline/defeat/criticism seems to damage him; whether that comes from the left or Farage.

 

I know having the most ****ing awful, incompetent leader of the opposition in history doesn't help, and a right wing media lapping him up, but it still surprises me.

Frightening to think that because of the popularity of Trump and Johnson, these caricatures of what a statesman should be have laid down a new blueprint for attaining power that will be used by others in the future.

 

Despite her shortcomings, Theresa May had more integrity in her little toe than Johnson.

Edited 26 October 2019 by WigstonWanderer